Went to the George and Dragon at Chipstead after and had a nice pint of Meantime London Lager. I'd drink at the ground if they had that rather than Fosters it's only brewed down the road.
If you think the fosters is overpriced imagine what you'd end up paying for a pint of that at the match!
I'd probably pay £5 for a nice pint of Meantime rather than £3.90 for a terrible pint of Fosters.
The reason I've always heard for not having slightly nicer lagers (and I mean lager, I'm not expecting the club to run a full on CAMRA beer festival on the North Upper concourse every other Saturday) is that they wouldn't be able to maintain the quality of the beer and the craft lager brewery's like Meantime wouldn't want their product to be served in substandard condition.
Went to the George and Dragon at Chipstead after and had a nice pint of Meantime London Lager. I'd drink at the ground if they had that rather than Fosters it's only brewed down the road.
If you think the fosters is overpriced imagine what you'd end up paying for a pint of that at the match!
I'd probably pay £5 for a nice pint of Meantime rather than £3.90 for a terrible pint of Fosters.
The reason I've always heard for not having slightly nicer largers (and I mean larger, I'm not expecting the club to run a full on CAMRA beer festival on the North Upper concourse every other Saturday) is that they wouldn't be able to maintain the quality of the beer and the craft larger brewery's like Meantime wouldn't want their product to be served in substandard condition.
getting served in the north end of the upper west plumbed new depths of crapness - fully 10 minutes for 3 people to buy 5 drinks. 2 staff serving with 5 bods standing behind doing eff all, all those staff sharing one bottle opener and one pen for marking vouchers and all hot food sold out before half time - P45 for whoever was supposed to plan that.
For me the issue here is that the Club decided to outsource the catering to Delaware North. That may well have been Ben Kensell's idea but it had to be approved by KM so she has to accept the praise and the criticism.
On paper this might have seemed like a good deal as the club gets a payment upfront and presumably a percentage of sales as well.
But the club has lost control of the process by doing this. It doesn't employ the catering staff and so doesn't train them and it doesn't have control over how much food they order or how it is delivered.
The feedback from the lounges was that the food is good and at the beginning of the season many were singing the praises of the new catering. We'll see what happens at the POTY do tonight but we know the unit cost has already gone up.
But it seems that the economic reality of having to make money from the offering means that unprofitable stalls are closed, minimum wages are paid and stock levels kept low. And you only get 14 chips.
Refusing to accept voucher after 12.15 was crass and underhand. And most likely just never thought out or discussed.
So we can blame Delaware North, quite rightly IMHO, for their failings but any customer going to the Valley is going to see it as Charlton's stadium and so Charlton's catering which means they take the flak. That is the nature of outsourcing.
Ironically the problems with the programmes are the opposite. Sales were outsourced. KM thought a saving (and it has to be a small saving) could be made by bring programme sales in house but didn't check to find out who the programme stands were owned by. When it turned out it was the outsourced company there was chaos of inexperienced sales people without the proper equipment. So sales drop after having increased early in the season (due in part to the stickers and also due to better content and design, IMHO at least).
It's not that either in-house or outsource are intrinsically better or worse, it's that the club has made decisions, it would seem, without looking at all the very predictable consequences. Instead they see a quick cut in costs (programmes) or a big income figure (catering) without looking at the whole process or retaining enough control. A classic example of this is that Delaware North started charging the football club to hold meetings. So it cost CAFC money to hold a meeting at its own ground as they had to pay £3 for someone to fill a jug of water. So on the "fun day" KM and RM do a Q & A in the press lounge as if they did it in the millennium lounge they have to pay.
And after next season the stated plan is to bring the shop back in house.
Does it matter? It's only a programme or chips. "It's what happens on the pitch that matters" some will say.
But KM and Finance Manager David Joyes made a big thing at the VIP meeting of breaking even by increasing commercial income. But how can you increase that income by millions if you can't even sell your own programmes. And if the extra income isn't found from commercial activity then it has to come from somewhere else? Ticket prices? Or a smaller playing budget maybe?
It's a shame as the new regime has got a lot right with a better quality programme, the new pitch, a new big screen coming and the big one a new training ground IF IF IF we get planning permission but the errors over programmes and catering seem, to me at least, to be symptomatic of a lack of clear plan and a paucity of experienced managers and staff working towards that plan. So decisions get made in isolation and for short term reasons ("lets save a few £100 on the programme sales", "let's move ST holders to cash in on Bournemouth fans") rather than with the long term aim, whatever that is, in mind.
PS There is an article in the programme from the CAFC Hospitality manager Ravi Patel (ravi.patel@cafc.co.uk) which quotes the Delaware North General manager Wesley Spinks as saying they are reviewing how the year has gone. Might be worth letting him know what you think.
One bit of praise is for the two lads who were running the beer cart in the North Upper (east side of the concourse) - when they weren't serving customers they were pulling pints so the next customer that did arrive could be served straight away, they showed a level of intuition I'm not normally used to seeing from our kiosks.
There's certainly no shortage of ideas, only perhaps ears to listen to them ....
Often it's the small details that go wrong. I use Bartram's and get there double early to secure us a table (Germans/sun-bed style). I was at The Valley on Friday and asked about the earlier opening time. 10 o'clock - ok. Got there at 09.50 - it had been open since 0930. I got a table ok. I ordered a drink, and only then was told no alcohol sales before 11. I think it was the guy's first time behind a bar. I bought a few penceworth of Coke and paid £2. Alcohol sales started promptly - at 10.30. OK, this is all trivial, but surely easier to get right than wrong ....
For me the issue here is that the Club decided to outsource the catering to Delaware North. That may well have been Ben Kensell's idea but it had to be approved by KM so she has to accept the praise and the criticism.
On paper this might have seemed like a good deal as the club gets a payment upfront and presumably a percentage of sales as well.
But the club has lost control of the process by doing this. It doesn't employ the catering staff and so doesn't train them and it doesn't have control over how much food they order or how it is delivered.
The feedback from the lounges was that the food is good and at the beginning of the season many were singing the praises of the new catering. We'll see what happens at the POTY do tonight but we know the unit cost has already gone up.
But it seems that the economic reality of having to make money from the offering means that unprofitable stalls are closed, minimum wages are paid and stock levels kept low. And you only get 14 chips.
Refusing to accept voucher after 12.15 was crass and underhand. And most likely just never thought out or discussed.
So we can blame Delaware North, quite rightly IMHO, for their failings but any customer going to the Valley is going to see it as Charlton's stadium and so Charlton's catering which means they take the flak. That is the nature of outsourcing.
Ironically the problems with the programmes are the opposite. Sales were outsourced. KM thought a saving (and it has to be a small saving) could be made by bring programme sales in house but didn't check to find out who the programme stands were owned by. When it turned out it was the outsourced company there was chaos of inexperienced sales people without the proper equipment. So sales drop after having increased early in the season (due in part to the stickers and also due to better content and design, IMHO at least).
It's not that either in-house or outsource are intrinsically better or worse, it's that the club has made decisions, it would seem, without looking at all the very predictable consequences. Instead they see a quick cut in costs (programmes) or a big income figure (catering) without looking at the whole process or retaining enough control. A classic example of this is that Delaware North started charging the football club to hold meetings. So it cost CAFC money to hold a meeting at its own ground as they had to pay £3 for someone to fill a jug of water. So on the "fun day" KM and RM do a Q & A in the press lounge as if they did it in the millennium lounge they have to pay.
And after next season the stated plan is to bring the shop back in house.
Does it matter? It's only a programme or chips. "It's what happens on the pitch that matters" some will say.
But KM and Finance Manager David Joyes made a big thing at the VIP meeting of breaking even by increasing commercial income. But how can you increase that income by millions if you can't even sell your own programmes. And if the extra income isn't found from commercial activity then it has to come from somewhere else? Ticket prices? Or a smaller playing budget maybe?
It's a shame as the new regime has got a lot right with a better quality programme, the new pitch, a new big screen coming and the big one a new training ground IF IF IF we get planning permission but the errors over programmes and catering seem, to me at least, to be symptomatic of a lack of clear plan and a paucity of experienced managers and staff working towards that plan. So decisions get made in isolation and for short term reasons ("lets save a few £100 on the programme sales", "let's move ST holders to cash in on Bournemouth fans") rather than with the long term aim, whatever that is, in mind.
PS There is an article in the programme from the CAFC Hospitality manager Ravi Patel (ravi.patel@cafc.co.uk) which quotes the Delaware North General manager Wesley Spinks as saying they are reviewing how the year has gone. Might be worth letting him know what you think.
I am in no position to know the exact contractual nature of the agreement between the Club and Delaware.
However it is distinctly possible that Delaware are the agents of the Club. If so cries of "it's not our fault guv" from the Club are false because agents (Delaware possibly) are the employer's (Charlton possibly) responsibility.
Whatever the situation if it truly had the will the Club could act to improve the situation.
EDIT Made a typo and put 'ate' instead of 'are'
Given that we are discussing catering perhaps I was right the first time....
For me the issue here is that the Club decided to outsource the catering to Delaware North. That may well have been Ben Kensell's idea but it had to be approved by KM so she has to accept the praise and the criticism.
On paper this might have seemed like a good deal as the club gets a payment upfront and presumably a percentage of sales as well.
But the club has lost control of the process by doing this. It doesn't employ the catering staff and so doesn't train them and it doesn't have control over how much food they order or how it is delivered.
The feedback from the lounges was that the food is good and at the beginning of the season many were singing the praises of the new catering. We'll see what happens at the POTY do tonight but we know the unit cost has already gone up.
But it seems that the economic reality of having to make money from the offering means that unprofitable stalls are closed, minimum wages are paid and stock levels kept low. And you only get 14 chips.
Refusing to accept voucher after 12.15 was crass and underhand. And most likely just never thought out or discussed.
So we can blame Delaware North, quite rightly IMHO, for their failings but any customer going to the Valley is going to see it as Charlton's stadium and so Charlton's catering which means they take the flak. That is the nature of outsourcing.
Ironically the problems with the programmes are the opposite. Sales were outsourced. KM thought a saving (and it has to be a small saving) could be made by bring programme sales in house but didn't check to find out who the programme stands were owned by. When it turned out it was the outsourced company there was chaos of inexperienced sales people without the proper equipment. So sales drop after having increased early in the season (due in part to the stickers and also due to better content and design, IMHO at least).
It's not that either in-house or outsource are intrinsically better or worse, it's that the club has made decisions, it would seem, without looking at all the very predictable consequences. Instead they see a quick cut in costs (programmes) or a big income figure (catering) without looking at the whole process or retaining enough control. A classic example of this is that Delaware North started charging the football club to hold meetings. So it cost CAFC money to hold a meeting at its own ground as they had to pay £3 for someone to fill a jug of water. So on the "fun day" KM and RM do a Q & A in the press lounge as if they did it in the millennium lounge they have to pay.
And after next season the stated plan is to bring the shop back in house.
Does it matter? It's only a programme or chips. "It's what happens on the pitch that matters" some will say.
But KM and Finance Manager David Joyes made a big thing at the VIP meeting of breaking even by increasing commercial income. But how can you increase that income by millions if you can't even sell your own programmes. And if the extra income isn't found from commercial activity then it has to come from somewhere else? Ticket prices? Or a smaller playing budget maybe?
It's a shame as the new regime has got a lot right with a better quality programme, the new pitch, a new big screen coming and the big one a new training ground IF IF IF we get planning permission but the errors over programmes and catering seem, to me at least, to be symptomatic of a lack of clear plan and a paucity of experienced managers and staff working towards that plan. So decisions get made in isolation and for short term reasons ("lets save a few £100 on the programme sales", "let's move ST holders to cash in on Bournemouth fans") rather than with the long term aim, whatever that is, in mind.
PS There is an article in the programme from the CAFC Hospitality manager Ravi Patel (ravi.patel@cafc.co.uk) which quotes the Delaware North General manager Wesley Spinks as saying they are reviewing how the year has gone. Might be worth letting him know what you think.
Have to agree with a lot of this, as it is just common sense. The trouble with outsourcing is that it does not relieve you of responsibility, as the fan's/customers blame CAFC. I support a football club, not a catering company, and frankly if a few CAFC fan's get a free food voucher/drink was it going to really cause such distress. In the same way that the reminiscence group were charged for using CAFC it seems a rather odd way to treat valued supporters. Hopefully all supporters are all valued, and not just there money. Hopefully the lesson's can be learnt, and I am sure Fanny and co will impress on Wesley and his company that fan's in general just want a quick, decent service, at not at Gordon Ramsey prices.
Maybe there are wider and more intricate definitions of 'together', such as 'our bit is to do what we want, your bit is to put up with it...so we're together on this aren't we?'
I never buy food at The Valley or any other Club we visit for away games but regardless of what's /not on offer on a regular basis, today sounds an absolute disgrace.
May I respectfully suggest that all those Lifers affected today message me with as much detail as possible about this afternoon's fiasco ie if you moved seats to allow more Bournemouth fans to see the game and were offered vouchers for food/drink. A copy of the information given to you to "explain" said offer would be very useful too.
We have a Fans' Forum meeting diarised for 8th July so unless you are prepared to email Katrien direct ( which I believe would mean that this issue does not die a death for lack of immediate attention) I'd be happy to put this on the agenda as long as I have the full facts and some personal experiences clearly in front of me. And I am prepared to request that a senior member of the Delaware Catering staff be present to field said questions.
I'm afraid that there are too many instances of poor customer service of late- there I've said it. Nearly everyone I speak with has a story to tell regarding season ticket renewal, programme sellers, the quality of food & drink amongst others. This is not a witch hunt, before anyone thinks I have an axe to grind but I'm not immune to experiencing problems myself. And it's becoming unacceptable.
It's time that the regular supporter was listened to and received some satisfactory answers. What's happening at the moment behind the scenes of our Club is not acceptable. Didn't someone once say that the customer is always right ?
Well its highly likely CAFC have a deal going with one of the big suppliers so don't expect anything other than cheap, big brand lager in our lifetimes.
Well its highly likely CAFC have a deal going with one of the big suppliers so don't expect anything other than cheap, big brand lager in our lifetimes.
Well its highly likely CAFC have a deal going with one of the big suppliers so don't expect anything other than cheap, big brand lager in our lifetimes.
Our contract is with Heineken who own Fosters/Kronenburg/Tiger/Desperado etc.
There was a rumor of Meantime selling to one of the big boys a while back, but I don't know whats happening with that. Heineken, yeah that makes sense.
Well i got to the ground at 10:40 picked up my vouchers and spent them on beer and crisps in Bartrams. It worked ok for me. I avoid food at the ground as it is always luke warm or cold.
A shame that what turned out to be a decent season (I'm personally pleased with where we finished and what we've got to build on for next year) has been dampened by poor snack planning.
I'm not sure a lack of chips is indicative of a widespread "screw the fans" attitude though. In fact, I'd put money on the club looking to come to some kind of compensation with those involved.
The food vouchers was a shambles, from start to finish. I was not told the vouchers were only "pre-match" and as everyone has said, the food kiosks were packed and all food was sold out, before they had a chance to replenish stock. Three points come to mind. 1) Vouchers should have been valid all match 2) Considering the crowd was 21,280, I doubt the catering kiosks could cope with a sell out match! 3) Give those moved some compensation in either money off a season ticket or a future cup game.
Don't claim to have all the solutions, but note that the club wish to maximise profit and fans want more than 14 paltry chips per serving. Surely the solution would be to cut chips into two at no extra cost and thereby providing hungry fans with a more satisfactory 28 chips.
I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a reason why the food vouchers had such a short time limit. The sensilble thing would be to give them a long timespan - say, a whole season. The benefits of that would be that demand would have been evened out, there would have been no suplly issues and no associated angst. Supporters would have had more choice, could have got what they wanted (they could even get 70 whole chips if they wanted) and would have felt positive about the club, instead of feeling cheated.
There is, of course, only one reason for the short time limit. That is that the offer of £15 per person wasn't genuine at all. The real intention was to keep hold of as much of the filthy lucre as possible, wilst pretending to be fair to our fans. Sadly it's just another sign of our duplicitous management. 'Building a better tomorrow together'! My only question is, for whom? Because it doesn't seem like it's for the fans.
I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a reason why the food vouchers had such a short time limit. The sensilble thing would be to give them a long timespan - say, a whole season. The benefits of that would be that demand would have been evened out, there would have been no suplly issues and no associated angst. Supporters would have had more choice, could have got what they wanted (they could even get 70 whole chips if they wanted) and would have felt positive about the club, instead of feeling cheated.
There is, of course, only one reason for the short time limit. That is that the offer of £15 per person wasn't genuine at all. The real intention was to keep hold of as much of the filthy lucre as possible, wilst pretending to be fair to our fans. Sadly it's just another sign of our duplicitous management. 'Building a better tomorrow together'! My only question is, for whom? Because it doesn't seem like it's for the fans.
It takes a lot of hard work and professionalism to earn a good reputation but only one fiasco to lose it.
I wasn't affected indeed I wasn't even at the game as I had other things on but I very much feel for those who were.
Customer churn doesn't apply in football. Lose the fans and you've lost them.
I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a reason why the food vouchers had such a short time limit. The sensilble thing would be to give them a long timespan - say, a whole season. The benefits of that would be that demand would have been evened out, there would have been no suplly issues and no associated angst. Supporters would have had more choice, could have got what they wanted (they could even get 70 whole chips if they wanted) and would have felt positive about the club, instead of feeling cheated.
There is, of course, only one reason for the short time limit. That is that the offer of £15 per person wasn't genuine at all. The real intention was to keep hold of as much of the filthy lucre as possible, wilst pretending to be fair to our fans. Sadly it's just another sign of our duplicitous management. 'Building a better tomorrow together'! My only question is, for whom? Because it doesn't seem like it's for the fans.
Comments
My ideas are train the staff better, ensure the stock is available and listen to what your customers want.
The reason I've always heard for not having slightly nicer lagers (and I mean lager, I'm not expecting the club to run a full on CAMRA beer festival on the North Upper concourse every other Saturday) is that they wouldn't be able to maintain the quality of the beer and the craft lager brewery's like Meantime wouldn't want their product to be served in substandard condition.
On paper this might have seemed like a good deal as the club gets a payment upfront and presumably a percentage of sales as well.
But the club has lost control of the process by doing this. It doesn't employ the catering staff and so doesn't train them and it doesn't have control over how much food they order or how it is delivered.
The feedback from the lounges was that the food is good and at the beginning of the season many were singing the praises of the new catering. We'll see what happens at the POTY do tonight but we know the unit cost has already gone up.
But it seems that the economic reality of having to make money from the offering means that unprofitable stalls are closed, minimum wages are paid and stock levels kept low. And you only get 14 chips.
Refusing to accept voucher after 12.15 was crass and underhand. And most likely just never thought out or discussed.
So we can blame Delaware North, quite rightly IMHO, for their failings but any customer going to the Valley is going to see it as Charlton's stadium and so Charlton's catering which means they take the flak. That is the nature of outsourcing.
Ironically the problems with the programmes are the opposite. Sales were outsourced. KM thought a saving (and it has to be a small saving) could be made by bring programme sales in house but didn't check to find out who the programme stands were owned by. When it turned out it was the outsourced company there was chaos of inexperienced sales people without the proper equipment. So sales drop after having increased early in the season (due in part to the stickers and also due to better content and design, IMHO at least).
It's not that either in-house or outsource are intrinsically better or worse, it's that the club has made decisions, it would seem, without looking at all the very predictable consequences. Instead they see a quick cut in costs (programmes) or a big income figure (catering) without looking at the whole process or retaining enough control. A classic example of this is that Delaware North started charging the football club to hold meetings. So it cost CAFC money to hold a meeting at its own ground as they had to pay £3 for someone to fill a jug of water. So on the "fun day" KM and RM do a Q & A in the press lounge as if they did it in the millennium lounge they have to pay.
And after next season the stated plan is to bring the shop back in house.
Does it matter? It's only a programme or chips. "It's what happens on the pitch that matters" some will say.
But KM and Finance Manager David Joyes made a big thing at the VIP meeting of breaking even by increasing commercial income. But how can you increase that income by millions if you can't even sell your own programmes. And if the extra income isn't found from commercial activity then it has to come from somewhere else? Ticket prices? Or a smaller playing budget maybe?
It's a shame as the new regime has got a lot right with a better quality programme, the new pitch, a new big screen coming and the big one a new training ground IF IF IF we get planning permission but the errors over programmes and catering seem, to me at least, to be symptomatic of a lack of clear plan and a paucity of experienced managers and staff working towards that plan. So decisions get made in isolation and for short term reasons ("lets save a few £100 on the programme sales", "let's move ST holders to cash in on Bournemouth fans") rather than with the long term aim, whatever that is, in mind.
PS There is an article in the programme from the CAFC Hospitality manager Ravi Patel (ravi.patel@cafc.co.uk) which quotes the Delaware North General manager Wesley Spinks as saying they are reviewing how the year has gone. Might be worth letting him know what you think.
There's certainly no shortage of ideas, only perhaps ears to listen to them ....
Often it's the small details that go wrong. I use Bartram's and get there double early to secure us a table (Germans/sun-bed style). I was at The Valley on Friday and asked about the earlier opening time. 10 o'clock - ok. Got there at 09.50 - it had been open since 0930. I got a table ok. I ordered a drink, and only then was told no alcohol sales before 11. I think it was the guy's first time behind a bar. I bought a few penceworth of Coke and paid £2. Alcohol sales started promptly - at 10.30. OK, this is all trivial, but surely easier to get right than wrong ....
However it is distinctly possible that Delaware are the agents of the Club. If so cries of "it's not our fault guv" from the Club are false because agents (Delaware possibly) are the employer's (Charlton possibly) responsibility.
Whatever the situation if it truly had the will the Club could act to improve the situation.
EDIT Made a typo and put 'ate' instead of 'are'
Given that we are discussing catering perhaps I was right the first time....
I support a football club, not a catering company, and frankly if a few CAFC fan's get a free food voucher/drink was it going to really cause such distress. In the same way that the reminiscence group were charged for using CAFC it seems a rather odd way to treat valued supporters. Hopefully all supporters are all valued, and not just there money.
Hopefully the lesson's can be learnt, and I am sure Fanny and co will impress on Wesley and his company that fan's in general just want a quick, decent service, at not at Gordon Ramsey prices.
Spectacular incompetence from top to the bottom.
Heineken, yeah that makes sense.
I'm not sure a lack of chips is indicative of a widespread "screw the fans" attitude though. In fact, I'd put money on the club looking to come to some kind of compensation with those involved.
Three points come to mind. 1) Vouchers should have been valid all match 2) Considering the crowd was 21,280, I doubt the catering kiosks could cope with a sell out match! 3) Give those moved some compensation in either money off a season ticket or a future cup game.
Don't claim to have all the solutions, but note that the club wish to maximise profit and fans want more than 14 paltry chips per serving. Surely the solution would be to cut chips into two at no extra cost and thereby providing hungry fans with a more satisfactory 28 chips.
There is, of course, only one reason for the short time limit. That is that the offer of £15 per person wasn't genuine at all. The real intention was to keep hold of as much of the filthy lucre as possible, wilst pretending to be fair to our fans. Sadly it's just another sign of our duplicitous management. 'Building a better tomorrow together'! My only question is, for whom? Because it doesn't seem like it's for the fans.
It takes a lot of hard work and professionalism to earn a good reputation but only one fiasco to lose it.
I wasn't affected indeed I wasn't even at the game as I had other things on but I very much feel for those who were.
Customer churn doesn't apply in football. Lose the fans and you've lost them.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Katrien's appearance, wasn't a major factor, in her achieving her role.
I'm certain she gets less flack than a bloke would.