Caitlyn Jenner

ValleyGary

wwaddickson said:

ValleyGary said:

wwaddickson said:

cafcdave123 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

what about if you really don't give a shit either way*

*he says after reading an entire thread on it.......

The don't give a shit about it attitude id argue is a bit unempathetic.

If you really didn't give a shit, live and let live and all that, you'd call her a her because it would be what they wanted and you don't give a shit and therefore don't want to offend them (and if you don't wanna offend them, then deep down you do give a shit)

If you weren't giving a shit because it's unusual and you don't understand how a person would feel like that and deep down you feel uncomfortable thinking about it and find yourselves looking down subconsciously on her because she's a bit different of that - you wouldn't give a shit and would still call her a him.

There's PC gone mad and then there's purposely not being PC because deep down you don't empathise and don't care about it because they're different and you aren't. Two different things IMHO.

mate, if you want boobs and a mini, its ok, you dont need to prove anything to us.

Im guessing you fall into the unempathetic category then!

I'm not gonna change anyone's mind on the subject, it comes down pretty much to your view on other people.

Being empathetic to her views (which I don't understand because I don't want boobs (I'll take the mini though, my car has just died)) doesn't mean I have to have a sex op! Just means I can rise above having a weird fear from a lack of understanding of the subject.

I was only having a laugh as you know.

The problem i have with it all, the same as Frank Maloney, is the whole 'Read my story now' bollocks. If you want to change your life/sex/whatever, then fine, who am i to care (although i find it creepy looking)...just dont go telling the whole world about it like its for our entertainment.

Greenie

wwaddickson said:

Greenie said:

wwaddickson said:

ValleyGary said:

wwaddickson said:

cafcdave123 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

what about if you really don't give a shit either way*

*he says after reading an entire thread on it.......

The don't give a shit about it attitude id argue is a bit unempathetic.

If you really didn't give a shit, live and let live and all that, you'd call her a her because it would be what they wanted and you don't give a shit and therefore don't want to offend them (and if you don't wanna offend them, then deep down you do give a shit)

If you weren't giving a shit because it's unusual and you don't understand how a person would feel like that and deep down you feel uncomfortable thinking about it and find yourselves looking down subconsciously on her because she's a bit different of that - you wouldn't give a shit and would still call her a him.

There's PC gone mad and then there's purposely not being PC because deep down you don't empathise and don't care about it because they're different and you aren't. Two different things IMHO.

mate, if you want boobs and a mini, its ok, you dont need to prove anything to us.

Im guessing you fall into the unempathetic category then!

I'm not gonna change anyone's mind on the subject, it comes down pretty much to your view on other people.

Being empathetic to her views (which I don't understand because I don't want boobs (I'll take the mini though, my car has just died)) doesn't mean I have to have a sex op! Just means I can rise above having a weird fear from a lack of understanding of the subject.

Not a weird fear, I think most can see him for what he is....a geezer in a dress.

More of a misunderstanding then.

If you say so......

Big_Bad_World

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

So it's okay to be judgemental towards everyone who isn't empathetic towards her plight?

That doesn't sound very empathetic.

Yeh pretty much. I'd rather be judgemental towards someone displaying an unempathetic viewpoint on someone else's personal struggle through a difficult life situation than be the person holding an unempathetic view on that person because they had judged them for having a struggle through a difficult life situation

Like I said before, it's a personal choice....one you should proud of having. However, to hold the view that everyone should adhere to that way of thinking is, for me, wrong.

I'm actually in the same camp as you with regards to referring to her as a 'she' but we're miles apart on the judging others bit. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they wish, regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel about it. It's akin to the thought police.

An individuals levels of empathy, compassion, sympathy etc will differ massively. It doesn't make them any less of a person than you. Wired differently? definitely. Beneath those that think otherwise? not at all.

Greenie

Big_Bad_World said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

So it's okay to be judgemental towards everyone who isn't empathetic towards her plight?

That doesn't sound very empathetic.

Yeh pretty much. I'd rather be judgemental towards someone displaying an unempathetic viewpoint on someone else's personal struggle through a difficult life situation than be the person holding an unempathetic view on that person because they had judged them for having a struggle through a difficult life situation

Like I said before, it's a personal choice....one you should proud of having. However, to hold the view that everyone should adhere to that way of thinking is, for me, wrong.

I'm actually in the same camp as you with regards to referring to her as a 'she' but we're miles apart on the judging others bit. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they wish, regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel about it. It's akin to the thought police.

An individuals levels of empathy, compassion, sympathy etc will differ massively. It doesn't make them any less of a person than you. Wired differently? definitely. Beneath those that think otherwise? not at all.

With all those words that you know BBW, who the hell do you talk to at the Den?

Great post BTW.

cafcdave123

Greenie said:

Big_Bad_World said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

So it's okay to be judgemental towards everyone who isn't empathetic towards her plight?

That doesn't sound very empathetic.

Yeh pretty much. I'd rather be judgemental towards someone displaying an unempathetic viewpoint on someone else's personal struggle through a difficult life situation than be the person holding an unempathetic view on that person because they had judged them for having a struggle through a difficult life situation

Like I said before, it's a personal choice....one you should proud of having. However, to hold the view that everyone should adhere to that way of thinking is, for me, wrong.

I'm actually in the same camp as you with regards to referring to her as a 'she' but we're miles apart on the judging others bit. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they wish, regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel about it. It's akin to the thought police.

An individuals levels of empathy, compassion, sympathy etc will differ massively. It doesn't make them any less of a person than you. Wired differently? definitely. Beneath those that think otherwise? not at all.

With all those words that you know BBW, who the hell do you talk to at the Den?
Great post BTW.

the police, from the back of the van.

LouisMend

ValleyGary said:

wwaddickson said:

ValleyGary said:

wwaddickson said:

cafcdave123 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

what about if you really don't give a shit either way*

*he says after reading an entire thread on it.......

The don't give a shit about it attitude id argue is a bit unempathetic.

If you really didn't give a shit, live and let live and all that, you'd call her a her because it would be what they wanted and you don't give a shit and therefore don't want to offend them (and if you don't wanna offend them, then deep down you do give a shit)

If you weren't giving a shit because it's unusual and you don't understand how a person would feel like that and deep down you feel uncomfortable thinking about it and find yourselves looking down subconsciously on her because she's a bit different of that - you wouldn't give a shit and would still call her a him.

There's PC gone mad and then there's purposely not being PC because deep down you don't empathise and don't care about it because they're different and you aren't. Two different things IMHO.

mate, if you want boobs and a mini, its ok, you dont need to prove anything to us.

Im guessing you fall into the unempathetic category then!

I'm not gonna change anyone's mind on the subject, it comes down pretty much to your view on other people.

Being empathetic to her views (which I don't understand because I don't want boobs (I'll take the mini though, my car has just died)) doesn't mean I have to have a sex op! Just means I can rise above having a weird fear from a lack of understanding of the subject.

I was only having a laugh as you know.

The problem i have with it all, the same as Frank Maloney, is the whole 'Read my story now' bollocks. If you want to change your life/sex/whatever, then fine, who am i to both judge and care...just dont go telling the whole world about it like its for our entertainment.

I'd assume these sort of books come out as people in the public eye, well respected in male dominated things like boxing, want to share their story.

It's not something most of us had ever dealt with in our normal life. High profile, well respected people like Maloney have a platform already and can tell her story and all of a sudden it's something we're more aware of.

Whereas the jokes etc about this sort of thing are water off a ducks back, lad bible, dressing room this and that to us, for all we know there's people in those dressing rooms, on this forum, at our works etc who are hiding behind who they really are because of the general attitude that us lads have towards this sort of thing.

Maloney probably wants more people like herself, especially in male dominated sports etc to feel more confident to live the life they want to live.

It shouldn't be something to have a problem with really if it isn't aimed at you as you already feel comfortable to live and let live etc.

LouisMend

Big_Bad_World said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

So it's okay to be judgemental towards everyone who isn't empathetic towards her plight?

That doesn't sound very empathetic.

Yeh pretty much. I'd rather be judgemental towards someone displaying an unempathetic viewpoint on someone else's personal struggle through a difficult life situation than be the person holding an unempathetic view on that person because they had judged them for having a struggle through a difficult life situation

Like I said before, it's a personal choice....one you should proud of having. However, to hold the view that everyone should adhere to that way of thinking is, for me, wrong.

I'm actually in the same camp as you with regards to referring to her as a 'she' but we're miles apart on the judging others bit. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they wish, regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel about it. It's akin to the thought police.

An individuals levels of empathy, compassion, sympathy etc will differ massively. It doesn't make them any less of a person than you. Wired differently? definitely. Beneath those that think otherwise? not at all.

Yeh I try not to tell anyone how to think (but I will try to explain why I think being empathetic is not a bad trait and that probably comes accross as me tying to tell people how to think anyway!)

Big_Bad_World

Greenie said:

Big_Bad_World said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

So it's okay to be judgemental towards everyone who isn't empathetic towards her plight?

That doesn't sound very empathetic.

Yeh pretty much. I'd rather be judgemental towards someone displaying an unempathetic viewpoint on someone else's personal struggle through a difficult life situation than be the person holding an unempathetic view on that person because they had judged them for having a struggle through a difficult life situation

Like I said before, it's a personal choice....one you should proud of having. However, to hold the view that everyone should adhere to that way of thinking is, for me, wrong.

I'm actually in the same camp as you with regards to referring to her as a 'she' but we're miles apart on the judging others bit. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they wish, regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel about it. It's akin to the thought police.

An individuals levels of empathy, compassion, sympathy etc will differ massively. It doesn't make them any less of a person than you. Wired differently? definitely. Beneath those that think otherwise? not at all.

With all those words that you know BBW, who the hell do you talk to at the Den?

Great post BTW.

Myself, usually. I'm the only bloke that they allow in with a 7ft mirror......and thanks.

shine166

Fair play to him, not sure why the world should care though. There is a fire station down the road from me, they saves lives on a daily basis.... Shame there braveness has never been gushed about.

AFKABartram

these things only come into serious consideration when it is someone you actually know personally.

Until then, i've had sneezes that have lasted longer than my interest in this sort of stuff

DaveMehmet

AFKABartram said:

these things only come into serious consideration when it is someone you actually know personally.

1905?

sillav nitram

Chizz said:

...has just become the fastest person to reach one million Twitter followers. In just four hours.

Hers is an amazing story. So far...

but there are so many more that go unnoticed because they're not famous or is that infamous?

queensland_addick

He's had nothing done that can't be easily reversed. I'm amazed how much publicity this
has generated around the world, when It may turn out to have been an incredibly lucrative publicity stunt.

nth_london_addick

Shag said:

Would you rather ....

A. shag it , but no-one would ever find out

B. never shag it , but everyone thinks you have

brilliant , 2 flags what a load of shit



for what its worth

b

happyvalley

He is at least a lot better looking than Frank Maloney.

Chizz

happyvalley said:

He is at least a lot better looking than Frank Maloney.

"She"

queensland_addick

Chizz said:

happyvalley said:

He is at least a lot better looking than Frank Maloney.

"She"

Male: a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

He can put on all the makeup in the world, wear dresses, grow breasts and talk with a high voice, but at this stage he remains a "he".

IA

queensland_addick said:

Chizz said:

happyvalley said:

He is at least a lot better looking than Frank Maloney.

"She"

Male: a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

He can put on all the makeup in the world, wear dresses, grow breasts and talk with a high voice, but at this stage he remains a "he".

In your opinion.

MrOneLung

It's not his opinion, he is quoting facts.

Until they have had full gender realignment they are a man living as a woman.

Chizz

queensland_addick said:

Chizz said:

happyvalley said:

He is at least a lot better looking than Frank Maloney.

"She"

Male: a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

He can put on all the makeup in the world, wear dresses, grow breasts and talk with a high voice, but at this stage he remains a "he".

Her preference is to be referred to by using the feminine pronoun.

MrOneLung

My preference is to be referred to as Lord OneLung, font of knowledge,master of everything, fantasy of women but it ain't gonna happen.

Chizz

If she's personally caused you a problem; or she's deliberately set out to create issues for you; or she's tried to impact your life in any negative way, then I'd see why you might have ill feelings towards her.

But if she hasn't, what does anyone gain by petulantly refusing to refer to her with feminine pronouns?

IA

MrOneLung said:

It's not his opinion, he is quoting facts.

Until they have had full gender realignment they are a man living as a woman.

Not facts. Opinion.

My opinion is that someone is male if they self-identify as male and live "as a male" (whatever that means in society). It's not my place to tell someone else what his/her gender is.

I think we are roughly in the same place with gender identity issues now as we were with sexuality maybe 20-30 years ago.

Someone at my work changed gender a couple of years ago. As far as I know, she was fully accepted as a woman and everyone pretty much switched overnight from describing her as 'he' to 'she'. Don't know and don't care if she had surgery or whatever, she was a woman from that stage. I think the more that ordinary people who have gender identity questions go through with the changes in how they live and how they describe themselves, the less 'black and white' people's opinions will be on gender.

soapboxsam

Frank/Kelly Maloney's daughter said the worst Part about finding out your dad was going to become a woman was the fact that he was famous. The impact on the rest of the family was going to be shocking.
Bruce Jenner was a brilliant Athlete who was very strong so the issues were between the ears and not the physical make up.
A lad at my school said he wished he was a girl as he hated being a boy. It was so obvious some mistake had been made in nature that at 14 he knew.
How on earth do you get to be 60 or 65 and decide you are the wrong sex ?
The aspect that needs looking at in the two famous cases of
Caitlyn and Kelly is they have killed off Frank and Bruce who existed for 6 decades.
More a case of a split personality(50% Male 50% Female)
Than the girl who was born in a boy's body from my school days.

smudge7946

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

If I suddey decide I'm the king of the world, will you address me as 'your majesty' and genuflect in my presence?

cafcdave123

smudge7946 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

If I suddey decide I'm the king of the world, will you address me as 'your majesty' and genuflect in my presence?

I would BUT i have just declared myself God's boss and out rank you by some distance, everyone else needs to show you some fucking respect though!

LouisMend

smudge7946 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

If I suddey decide I'm the king of the world, will you address me as 'your majesty' and genuflect in my presence?

Not the same thing. She hadn't suddenly decided to feel like a woman in a man's body her whole life and that she was living a lie.

Stuart_the_Red

IA said:

MrOneLung said:

It's not his opinion, he is quoting facts.

Until they have had full gender realignment they are a man living as a woman.

Not facts. Opinion.

My opinion is that someone is male if they self-identify as male and live "as a male" (whatever that means in society). It's not my place to tell someone else what his/her gender is.

I think we are roughly in the same place with gender identity issues now as we were with sexuality maybe 20-30 years ago.

Someone at my work changed gender a couple of years ago. As far as I know, she was fully accepted as a woman and everyone pretty much switched overnight from describing her as 'he' to 'she'. Don't know and don't care if she had surgery or whatever, she was a woman from that stage. I think the more that ordinary people who have gender identity questions go through with the changes in how they live and how they describe themselves, the less 'black and white' people's opinions will be on gender.

So theoretically, Bruce could have changed his name to Caitlyn when he was 20, lived as a woman and participated in the women's events at the Olympic Games, despite still having a lunch paket and a 5 o'clock shadow. ;o)

queensland_addick

Stuart the Red said:

IA said:

MrOneLung said:

It's not his opinion, he is quoting facts.

Until they have had full gender realignment they are a man living as a woman.

Not facts. Opinion.

My opinion is that someone is male if they self-identify as male and live "as a male" (whatever that means in society). It's not my place to tell someone else what his/her gender is.

I think we are roughly in the same place with gender identity issues now as we were with sexuality maybe 20-30 years ago.

Someone at my work changed gender a couple of years ago. As far as I know, she was fully accepted as a woman and everyone pretty much switched overnight from describing her as 'he' to 'she'. Don't know and don't care if she had surgery or whatever, she was a woman from that stage. I think the more that ordinary people who have gender identity questions go through with the changes in how they live and how they describe themselves, the less 'black and white' people's opinions will be on gender.

So theoretically, Bruce could have changed his name to Caitlyn when he was 20, lived as a woman and participated in the women's events at the Olympic Games, despite still having a lunch paket and a 5 o'clock shadow. ;o)

Yes brilliant isn't it! In today's new world we can all be what we've always wanted to be whether we qualify or not. I've always wanted to be an Airline Pilot and have always thought that that is what I should have been. So as of today I'd like to be referred to as Captain Queensland. To hell with any official definition of what it takes to actually be a Captain, I've declared that I want to be one. Good luck to anyone that boards my plane!

smudge7946

wwaddickson said:

smudge7946 said:

wwaddickson said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

Big_Bad_World said:

Chizz said:

kings hill addick said:

All_Thaid_Up said:

Greenie said:

However you paint him and whatever cloths he wears, he's still a geezer. IMO.
Very brave to come out and do the photo shoot though.

I think it's brave for any normal person to come out. However for a narcissistic fame hungry family who are reliant on being in the media to continue growing their wealth through nothing more than self promotion - no I don't think so.

I think I'd be in this camp. I struggle to comprehend the motivation and/or the sincerity of the actions of people that are famous for being famous. One could argue that he was the most famous of all of them, I mean he won an Olympic medal - and back in the 70s that was a bigger deal than it is today. The rest of them are known for the clothes they wear, the places they go to and on one instance (according to my wife) the shape/pattern of the downstairs hair cut.

Don't get me wrong, they are, clearly, very clever being able to make so much money for doing, literally, nothing of any worth, and of course i would love that kind of money. However, I find the whole family cringeworthy.

Maybe this chap has been tormented his whole life about his sexuality and if so then I'm very pleased for him if he now feels 'free' but I think it will always be questionable if this isn't just an attention grabbing stunt. From what I've heard (again from my wife and her sister) the girls do soft porn in the lads magazines and the 'step-dad' doesn't get that much media attention. Now he has this procedure and he's on the front page of Vanity Fair. Voila!

Since my wife and I separated the best thing for me is that I no longer have to have the crappy soaps on in my house and I never, ever have to watch 'reality tv' again, ever!

But you're not able to refer to her by her preferred pronoun?

Is it not a choice for KHA to make, regardless of your thoughts on the matter?

Yes it is. KHA has a choice as to whether he refers to Caitlyn as a "he" or a "she". Caitlyn has a preference a preference to be referred to with the feminine pronoun.

However, I have seen that KHA has answered my point really well and, at the same time started to refer to her with the pronoun she prefers.

Caitlyn/Bruce's preferences are irrelevant when it comes to someone's choice of reference towards her/him, unless they are in her/his company. Only then should her/his preferences be respected/acted upon.

Of course. It's more a respect thing. You can respect her wishes it you want to or if you don't want to.

If you don't wish to respect her wishes then that says more about you than her though in my opinion.

If I suddey decide I'm the king of the world, will you address me as 'your majesty' and genuflect in my presence?

Not the same thing. She hadn't suddenly decided to feel like a woman in a man's body her whole life and that she was living a lie.

Yes it is. I've always thought I was king of the world.
In future its 'your majesty, it's not the same thing...'

You are very disrespectful to my feelings.