Hs2 will also have a station for Birmingham airport. Will be quicker to get there from central London than to Stanstead
“For”. Not “at” ? “At” means a rail terminal building that is part of the airport . “For” sounds like it involves a bus. Which business travellers would give two fingers to.
A new station is being built at Old Oak Common for HS2. Elizabeth line trains will also stop there. There will also be a link the West London line part of London Overground and the Southern service linking East Croydon and Watford Junction.
From Sunday 6th November trains will run between Abbey Wood/Heathrow & Reading, except on RMT strike days [7th/9th Nov] when it will revert back to Abbey Wood/Paddington. Trains will also operate between Shenfield & Paddington. https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-november-2022.pdf
Some of the journey times if you're travelling from Woolwich (taken from Citymapper):
Canary Wharf (5 minutes) Liverpool Street (12 minutes) Paddington (22 minutes) Heathrow (57 minutes) - For 2nd phase opening later in 2023.
Add a few minutes on top for Abbey Wood.
All direct, without changes.
@Crusty54 well my overall answer had to be “on here” but when I tried to look back to find the source, this post came up. It shows that I had the wrong figure in my head, but also that the timings seem to have lengthened - but also that post talks about a later opening of the extension than has happened.
65 minutes does seem disappointing though. I thought that on the Paddington stretch it was to follow the Heathrow Connect timetable, and again, I havent got the facts in front of me but I think that takes about 28 mins to Paddington, so if you add that to the 28mins Crossrail actually takes to Woolwich you get 56 mins.
Woolwich to Terminals 2 & 3 is 55 minutes. TfL planner adds in 3 & 6 minutes walk at either end. Probably reasonable on the Heathrow end and makes the 1hr 5 min quoted by @crusty54 about right.
Woolwich to Terminals 2 & 3 is 55 minutes. TfL planner adds in 3 & 6 minutes walk at either end. Probably reasonable on the Heathrow end and makes the 1hr 5 min quoted by @crusty54 about right.
Ah yes that will be it, us trainspotters obsess about the timetable, whereas TfL add in walk time. Fair enough.
Word of warning, do not get a lift down Spray Street on a Sunday... chaos down there yesterday with blocked traffic going in both direction and going nowhere. I would suggest getting dropped off on Vincent Road, the next one up.
I took a pic of the board at Woolwich yesterday... as I was, rather sadly, excited to see the Heathrow trains up and running.
@Crusty54 well my overall answer had to be “on here” but when I tried to look back to find the source, this post came up. It shows that I had the wrong figure in my head, but also that the timings seem to have lengthened - but also that post talks about a later opening of the extension than has happened.
65 minutes does seem disappointing though. I thought that on the Paddington stretch it was to follow the Heathrow Connect timetable, and again, I havent got the facts in front of me but I think that takes about 28 mins to Paddington, so if you add that to the 28mins Crossrail actually takes to Woolwich you get 56 mins.
I went for a trip from Woolwich to Heathrow on Sunday.
My timing was correct. We got to Heathrow Central in just under an hour but you should remember that this is a direct train so no time lost changing to Heathrow Express at Paddington. The extra time to Terminal 5 includes a fairly lengthy stop at T2/3 to allow alighting and boarding with luggage. Heathrow Express suffers the same delay.
The trains have good acceleration and we arrived at most intermediate stations a couple of minutes early so there is some scope to reduce the journey time in future.
@Crusty54 well my overall answer had to be “on here” but when I tried to look back to find the source, this post came up. It shows that I had the wrong figure in my head, but also that the timings seem to have lengthened - but also that post talks about a later opening of the extension than has happened.
65 minutes does seem disappointing though. I thought that on the Paddington stretch it was to follow the Heathrow Connect timetable, and again, I havent got the facts in front of me but I think that takes about 28 mins to Paddington, so if you add that to the 28mins Crossrail actually takes to Woolwich you get 56 mins.
I went for a trip from Woolwich to Heathrow on Sunday.
My timing was correct. We got to Heathrow Central in just under an hour but you should remember that this is a direct train so no time lost changing to Heathrow Express at Paddington. The extra time to Terminal 5 includes a fairly lengthy stop at T2/3 to allow alighting and boarding with luggage. Heathrow Express suffers the same delay.
The trains have good acceleration and we arrived at most intermediate stations a couple of minutes early so there is some scope to reduce the journey time in future.
City Mapper is not an official site.
Isn't it a loop at Heathrow, meaning that on the journey back it runs direct from T5 to Paddington?
The best scope for improvement would be to take a large chunk of HE's customers, then grab HE back for TfL. Then it would be one integrated London service, and could include in the schedule trains that run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow. Two more platforms free at Paddington main-line as a result too. Everyone's a winner... except the ultra-free market maniacs who created this nonsense in the first place.
Isn't it a loop at Heathrow, meaning that on the journey back it runs direct from T5 to Paddington?
The best scope for improvement would be to take a large chunk of HE's customers, then grab HE back for TfL. Then it would be one integrated London service, and could include in the schedule trains that run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow. Two more platforms free at Paddington main-line as a result too. Everyone's a winner... except the ultra-free market maniacs who created this nonsense in the first place.
It isn't a loop back from T5.
BAA paid for the tunnels and operate the trains (provided by Great Western). They want their money back.
There is no chance of running Heathrow - Paddington non stop trains on the Elizabeth line tracks.
Isn't it a loop at Heathrow, meaning that on the journey back it runs direct from T5 to Paddington?
The best scope for improvement would be to take a large chunk of HE's customers, then grab HE back for TfL. Then it would be one integrated London service, and could include in the schedule trains that run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow. Two more platforms free at Paddington main-line as a result too. Everyone's a winner... except the ultra-free market maniacs who created this nonsense in the first place.
It isn't a loop back from T5.
BAA paid for the tunnels and operate the trains (provided by Great Western). They want their money back.
There is no chance of running Heathrow - Paddington non stop trains on the Elizabeth line tracks.
Yes, I was already reminded (maybe by you) that BAA ( a Spanish company nowadays despite the name) own the tunnels. However we have already seen that BAA started Heathrow Connect but this was hoovered up by TfL in readiness for Crossrail. I’d be interested to know the business terms of that deal, but it has already happened.
Now I predict that Crossrail will severely hit HE revenues. The trains are nice, but on a 15 minute journey, they are not a game changer vs the slightly slower Crossrail trains, which can whisk business travellers on to the Kings Cross and City biz areas. So London, in the shape of TfL, can make them an offer they can’t refuse. What else can they do with their tunnels? Those tunnels dont allow them to send trains anywhere other than onto the main line to Paddington, and the stations can’t handle long distance trains anyway. TfL take over the whole thing, the Spanish still get some “rental” money for their tunnels, and we get a fully integrated single service to Heathrow which benefits people travelling to/from all parts of London.
Yes, I was already reminded (maybe by you) that BAA ( a Spanish company nowadays despite the name) own the tunnels. However we have already seen that BAA started Heathrow Connect but this was hoovered up by TfL in readiness for Crossrail. I’d be interested to know the business terms of that deal, but it has already happened.
Now I predict that Crossrail will severely hit HE revenues. The trains are nice, but on a 15 minute journey, they are not a game changer vs the slightly slower Crossrail trains, which can whisk business travellers on to the Kings Cross and City biz areas. So London, in the shape of TfL, can make them an offer they can’t refuse. What else can they do with their tunnels? Those tunnels dont allow them to send trains anywhere other than onto the main line to Paddington, and the stations can’t handle long distance trains anyway. TfL take over the whole thing, the Spanish still get some “rental” money for their tunnels, and we get a fully integrated single service to Heathrow which benefits people travelling to/from all parts of London.
BAA want to build another connection to the west of the airport for passengers to/from the West Country.
TfL would not want anything to do with this and in any case they don't have the money to buy anything.
The Heathrow Connect trains have gone for scrap and they needed replacement so the Elizabeth line has saved them money as well as adding more travel options.
Yes, I was already reminded (maybe by you) that BAA ( a Spanish company nowadays despite the name) own the tunnels. However we have already seen that BAA started Heathrow Connect but this was hoovered up by TfL in readiness for Crossrail. I’d be interested to know the business terms of that deal, but it has already happened.
Now I predict that Crossrail will severely hit HE revenues. The trains are nice, but on a 15 minute journey, they are not a game changer vs the slightly slower Crossrail trains, which can whisk business travellers on to the Kings Cross and City biz areas. So London, in the shape of TfL, can make them an offer they can’t refuse. What else can they do with their tunnels? Those tunnels dont allow them to send trains anywhere other than onto the main line to Paddington, and the stations can’t handle long distance trains anyway. TfL take over the whole thing, the Spanish still get some “rental” money for their tunnels, and we get a fully integrated single service to Heathrow which benefits people travelling to/from all parts of London.
BAA want to build another connection to the west of the airport for passengers to/from the West Country.
TfL would not want anything to do with this and in any case they don't have the money to buy anything.
The Heathrow Connect trains have gone for scrap and they needed replacement so the Elizabeth line has saved them money as well as adding more travel options.
Well, we'll see. I'm interested in your takes, as you obviously have some knowledge on it, and I'm interested because I'm a shameless rail junkie - but as much on the biz side as the eccentric hobby side.
Of course there should be a link direct to the main line network "outwards" , that should have been built into the plan from the start. But that did not happen because at the time we were still in "privatise everything" mode, even though Thatcher had gone. You know that originally the HE itself was to be a BAA/British Rail joint venture, which went south because the Tories pressed ahead with their ludicrous privatisation? But equally ludicrous was the privatisation of airports. They are a strategic national asset, FFS, and now they are owned by the Spanish. Airports globally are trying to work out the future patterns of passenger demand. The third runway itself is a capital project that still has an uncertain future.
You're talking about a huge capital project. Tunnels are hugely expensive. AFAIK it would also require a complete new station because the HE stations can in no way handle an influx of high speed main line trains. And if those trains serve the West of England only, and not the Midlands and North, I'm not sure the pay-off would be there in terms of passenger growth. After all, WoE trains could also stop at the new Old Oak station and then a quick connection into Heathrow. Not as good as direct, but many would see it as an improvement on changing at crowded Paddington.
I'm just speculating, but I doubt the return on investment for building this new link themselves will stack up for Ferrovaire and co., especially as they see Crossrail eating their HE lunch. They may then turn to the UK government for a JV, but by then I think it will finally have sunk in that 100% privatisation of railways and airports (as opposed to airlines) has been a massive error, and the government will say, well we'll be in charge of any such project, and BTW we'll want to take a strategic share of the Airport while we are at it. Or maybe they won't be so clear-headed and assertive, in which case deadlock, and it just won't happen.
Yes, I was already reminded (maybe by you) that BAA ( a Spanish company nowadays despite the name) own the tunnels. However we have already seen that BAA started Heathrow Connect but this was hoovered up by TfL in readiness for Crossrail. I’d be interested to know the business terms of that deal, but it has already happened.
Now I predict that Crossrail will severely hit HE revenues. The trains are nice, but on a 15 minute journey, they are not a game changer vs the slightly slower Crossrail trains, which can whisk business travellers on to the Kings Cross and City biz areas. So London, in the shape of TfL, can make them an offer they can’t refuse. What else can they do with their tunnels? Those tunnels dont allow them to send trains anywhere other than onto the main line to Paddington, and the stations can’t handle long distance trains anyway. TfL take over the whole thing, the Spanish still get some “rental” money for their tunnels, and we get a fully integrated single service to Heathrow which benefits people travelling to/from all parts of London.
BAA want to build another connection to the west of the airport for passengers to/from the West Country.
TfL would not want anything to do with this and in any case they don't have the money to buy anything.
The Heathrow Connect trains have gone for scrap and they needed replacement so the Elizabeth line has saved them money as well as adding more travel options.
Well, we'll see. I'm interested in your takes, as you obviously have some knowledge on it, and I'm interested because I'm a shameless rail junkie - but as much on the biz side as the eccentric hobby side.
Of course there should be a link direct to the main line network "outwards" , that should have been built into the plan from the start. But that did not happen because at the time we were still in "privatise everything" mode, even though Thatcher had gone. You know that originally the HE itself was to be a BAA/British Rail joint venture, which went south because the Tories pressed ahead with their ludicrous privatisation? But equally ludicrous was the privatisation of airports. They are a strategic national asset, FFS, and now they are owned by the Spanish. Airports globally are trying to work out the future patterns of passenger demand. The third runway itself is a capital project that still has an uncertain future.
You're talking about a huge capital project. Tunnels are hugely expensive. AFAIK it would also require a complete new station because the HE stations can in no way handle an influx of high speed main line trains. And if those trains serve the West of England only, and not the Midlands and North, I'm not sure the pay-off would be there in terms of passenger growth. After all, WoE trains could also stop at the new Old Oak station and then a quick connection into Heathrow. Not as good as direct, but many would see it as an improvement on changing at crowded Paddington.
I'm just speculating, but I doubt the return on investment for building this new link themselves will stack up for Ferrovaire and co., especially as they see Crossrail eating their HE lunch. They may then turn to the UK government for a JV, but by then I think it will finally have sunk in that 100% privatisation of railways and airports (as opposed to airlines) has been a massive error, and the government will say, well we'll be in charge of any such project, and BTW we'll want to take a strategic share of the Airport while we are at it. Or maybe they won't be so clear-headed and assertive, in which case deadlock, and it just won't happen.
The Heathrow Terminal 5 station box was constructed to enable four platforms and tracks and associated passenger walkways, of which only two platforms and tracks have been constructed and brought into passenger service. Provision for the other two platforms and tracks was included in the station box to allow through running to destinations to the south and west of the airport on new rail alignments at some point in the future. This would minimise disruption to the T5 station during construction. A case of rare foresight and provision for a future scheme not yet funded, in the rail industry. Various studies have been undertaken to decide the destinations where a south/western connection should go to and where the Heathrow branch should connect into the south western rail network. Destinations have included Waterloo (PAD to WAT via Heathrow) and Woking and beyond. I was involved in looking at track alignments for one study a few years back. A significant issue is the increased barrier down time at level crossings in the Staines area on the Waterloo to Reading line, which would severely impact the local highway network, as a result of additional trains running to/from the airport. This could be overcome by increased tunnelling, but at a huge additional expense. Replacing level crossings with bridges is difficult, expensive and disruptive in built-up locations. I may be right in saying that provision of the south/west rail connection was a requirement for planning approval being granted for construction of the proposed third runway, which is still under consideration. I think the south/west options are still undergoing feasibility studies, but progression will be affected by a decision on the third runway and confirmation of the need for the south/west connection due to the decrease in people travelling by rail following the Covid pandemic. Separately, I believe Network Rail is still examining options for a direct connection facing Reading, extending from the existing northern connection to Heathrow. This would enable a Paddington to Reading service reversing at Terminal 5 and would enable some Great Western main line services to call at Heathrow. A direct link to Heathrow from HS2 was considered in the early design phase around 10 years ago, with the HS2 Heathrow branch running along the Colne valley to west of Ruislip, where a triangular junction would provide connections to the north and London on the HS2 main line. The direct link was dropped in favour of a station at Old Oak Common to provide a Heathrow connection to/from HS2. I would imagine that the cost of the Heathrow branch plus a new underground station at Heathrow, capable of accommodating 400m long HS2 trains, and the over-station development potential at Old Oak Common were significant factors in dropping the direct HS2:Heathrow link.
Been online trying to book direct Reading to Abbey Wood returns for dates in December. Neither the tfl website or Trainline are allowing me to do it.
You cannot book advance tickets on the Elizabeth Line, you do not save any money by booking early.
Ah okay, thanks @clive Do you know if tfl has published the fares for this journey? If not I'll check the website later. I am basically looking at alternative ways of getting to home games from Poole. SouthWestern railways have disruption in December and the service on National Express coaches has completely gone down the toilet in the last 9 months. I am thinking Crosscountry trains to and from Reading and then Crossrail to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood and back up from there. Will assess journey times and fares.
Been online trying to book direct Reading to Abbey Wood returns for dates in December. Neither the tfl website or Trainline are allowing me to do it.
You cannot book advance tickets on the Elizabeth Line, you do not save any money by booking early.
Ah okay, thanks @clive Do you know if tfl has published the fares for this journey? If not I'll check the website later. I am basically looking at alternative ways of getting to home games from Poole. SouthWestern railways have disruption in December and the service on National Express coaches has completely gone down the toilet in the last 9 months. I am thinking Crosscountry trains to and from Reading and then Crossrail to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood and back up from there. Will assess journey times and fares.
Woolwich is the closest station to 'The Valley' where you have the option of plenty of buses opposite the station or a short walk to Woolwich Arsenal & a train from there.
Reading to Woolwich a Single fare price is
Contactless
Peak : £29.60 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930.
Off Peak: £13.90 At all other times including public holidays.
You can only use contactless to pay as you go at Reading Rail Station (not Oyster). If you don't use contactless, you need to buy a paper ticket.
Or an off- peak travelcard between Reading/ London would cost £28.00 & would include travel on buses/train to/ from Charlton.
Off-Peak Day Travelcard
DESCRIPTION
Unlimited off-peak travel by bus, train, tube, DLR and tram within relevant London Zones for one day.
TRAIN OPERATOR
Joint product offered by all Train Operators whose services operate between stations within the Travelcard area except Heathrow Express. Also available from some longer distance Train Operators to include travel from a station outside the zones.
BOOKING DEADLINES
None.
DISCOUNTS
Discounts available to holders of National Railcards and Network Cards
REFUNDS
A full refund is available if you return the completely unused ticket to the place of purchase within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid. Up to £10.00 fee will be charged.
CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLANS
If you wish to travel on a different date, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your original booking. A GBP10.00 per ticket fee will apply.
CONDITIONS
Available only within the zones displayed on the ticket and for one return journey to/from a station outside the zones where this is the station of origin. Only Travelcards with route "Plus High Speed" or "Any Permitted + HS" are valid on Southeastern high speed services.
Been online trying to book direct Reading to Abbey Wood returns for dates in December. Neither the tfl website or Trainline are allowing me to do it.
You cannot book advance tickets on the Elizabeth Line, you do not save any money by booking early.
Ah okay, thanks @clive Do you know if tfl has published the fares for this journey? If not I'll check the website later. I am basically looking at alternative ways of getting to home games from Poole. SouthWestern railways have disruption in December and the service on National Express coaches has completely gone down the toilet in the last 9 months. I am thinking Crosscountry trains to and from Reading and then Crossrail to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood and back up from there. Will assess journey times and fares.
Woolwich is the closest station to 'The Valley' where you have the option of plenty of buses opposite the station or a short walk to Woolwich Arsenal & a train from there.
Reading to Woolwich a Single fare price is
Contactless
Peak : £29.60 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930.
Off Peak: £13.90 At all other times including public holidays.
You can only use contactless to pay as you go at Reading Rail Station (not Oyster). If you don't use contactless, you need to buy a paper ticket.
Or an off- peak travelcard between Reading/ London would cost £28.00 & would include travel on buses/train to/ from Charlton.
Off-Peak Day Travelcard
DESCRIPTION
Unlimited off-peak travel by bus, train, tube, DLR and tram within relevant London Zones for one day.
TRAIN OPERATOR
Joint product offered by all Train Operators whose services operate between stations within the Travelcard area except Heathrow Express. Also available from some longer distance Train Operators to include travel from a station outside the zones.
BOOKING DEADLINES
None.
DISCOUNTS
Discounts available to holders of National Railcards and Network Cards
REFUNDS
A full refund is available if you return the completely unused ticket to the place of purchase within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid. Up to £10.00 fee will be charged.
CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLANS
If you wish to travel on a different date, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your original booking. A GBP10.00 per ticket fee will apply.
CONDITIONS
Available only within the zones displayed on the ticket and for one return journey to/from a station outside the zones where this is the station of origin. Only Travelcards with route "Plus High Speed" or "Any Permitted + HS" are valid on Southeastern high speed services.
@RickAddick Thanks for your insights, fascinating (well for me, anyway)!
I'm just wondering whether when they were thinking about a possible link to Woking, did nobody ask about the feasibility of extending such a link on to Redhill and *Gatwick* ? There is an existing line from Guildford to Redhill, and it looks quite straight on the map;such a link might still not be cheap , if it would be suitable for high speed running, but I wonder how much more expensive than the third runway? If you could link up the two airports with a fast high-capacity rail link, you change the options for possible expansion.
I've always thought this would be the smart solution especially after I took an ICE from Brussels to Frankfurt, and found that it stopped at a station called Cologne/Bonn Airport, and the next stop, after a 45 minute sprint, was...Frankfurt Airport.
Been online trying to book direct Reading to Abbey Wood returns for dates in December. Neither the tfl website or Trainline are allowing me to do it.
You cannot book advance tickets on the Elizabeth Line, you do not save any money by booking early.
Ah okay, thanks @clive Do you know if tfl has published the fares for this journey? If not I'll check the website later. I am basically looking at alternative ways of getting to home games from Poole. SouthWestern railways have disruption in December and the service on National Express coaches has completely gone down the toilet in the last 9 months. I am thinking Crosscountry trains to and from Reading and then Crossrail to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood and back up from there. Will assess journey times and fares.
Woolwich is the closest station to 'The Valley' where you have the option of plenty of buses opposite the station or a short walk to Woolwich Arsenal & a train from there.
Reading to Woolwich a Single fare price is
Contactless
Peak : £29.60 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930.
Off Peak: £13.90 At all other times including public holidays.
You can only use contactless to pay as you go at Reading Rail Station (not Oyster). If you don't use contactless, you need to buy a paper ticket.
Or an off- peak travelcard between Reading/ London would cost £28.00 & would include travel on buses/train to/ from Charlton.
Off-Peak Day Travelcard
DESCRIPTION
Unlimited off-peak travel by bus, train, tube, DLR and tram within relevant London Zones for one day.
TRAIN OPERATOR
Joint product offered by all Train Operators whose services operate between stations within the Travelcard area except Heathrow Express. Also available from some longer distance Train Operators to include travel from a station outside the zones.
BOOKING DEADLINES
None.
DISCOUNTS
Discounts available to holders of National Railcards and Network Cards
REFUNDS
A full refund is available if you return the completely unused ticket to the place of purchase within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid. Up to £10.00 fee will be charged.
CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLANS
If you wish to travel on a different date, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your original booking. A GBP10.00 per ticket fee will apply.
CONDITIONS
Available only within the zones displayed on the ticket and for one return journey to/from a station outside the zones where this is the station of origin. Only Travelcards with route "Plus High Speed" or "Any Permitted + HS" are valid on Southeastern high speed services.
Comments
Trains will also operate between Shenfield & Paddington.
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-november-2022.pdf
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-november-2022.pdf
I took a pic of the board at Woolwich yesterday... as I was, rather sadly, excited to see the Heathrow trains up and running.
My timing was correct. We got to Heathrow Central in just under an hour but you should remember that this is a direct train so no time lost changing to Heathrow Express at Paddington. The extra time to Terminal 5 includes a fairly lengthy stop at T2/3 to allow alighting and boarding with luggage. Heathrow Express suffers the same delay.
The trains have good acceleration and we arrived at most intermediate stations a couple of minutes early so there is some scope to reduce the journey time in future.
City Mapper is not an official site.
The best scope for improvement would be to take a large chunk of HE's customers, then grab HE back for TfL. Then it would be one integrated London service, and could include in the schedule trains that run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow. Two more platforms free at Paddington main-line as a result too. Everyone's a winner... except the ultra-free market maniacs who created this nonsense in the first place.
BAA paid for the tunnels and operate the trains (provided by Great Western). They want their money back.
There is no chance of running Heathrow - Paddington non stop trains on the Elizabeth line tracks.
TfL would not want anything to do with this and in any case they don't have the money to buy anything.
The Heathrow Connect trains have gone for scrap and they needed replacement so the Elizabeth line has saved them money as well as adding more travel options.
Of course there should be a link direct to the main line network "outwards" , that should have been built into the plan from the start. But that did not happen because at the time we were still in "privatise everything" mode, even though Thatcher had gone. You know that originally the HE itself was to be a BAA/British Rail joint venture, which went south because the Tories pressed ahead with their ludicrous privatisation? But equally ludicrous was the privatisation of airports. They are a strategic national asset, FFS, and now they are owned by the Spanish. Airports globally are trying to work out the future patterns of passenger demand. The third runway itself is a capital project that still has an uncertain future.
You're talking about a huge capital project. Tunnels are hugely expensive. AFAIK it would also require a complete new station because the HE stations can in no way handle an influx of high speed main line trains. And if those trains serve the West of England only, and not the Midlands and North, I'm not sure the pay-off would be there in terms of passenger growth. After all, WoE trains could also stop at the new Old Oak station and then a quick connection into Heathrow. Not as good as direct, but many would see it as an improvement on changing at crowded Paddington.
I'm just speculating, but I doubt the return on investment for building this new link themselves will stack up for Ferrovaire and co., especially as they see Crossrail eating their HE lunch. They may then turn to the UK government for a JV, but by then I think it will finally have sunk in that 100% privatisation of railways and airports (as opposed to airlines) has been a massive error, and the government will say, well we'll be in charge of any such project, and BTW we'll want to take a strategic share of the Airport while we are at it. Or maybe they won't be so clear-headed and assertive, in which case deadlock, and it just won't happen.
- Elizabeth line services will not call at stations between Bond Street and Whitechapel before 07:00 and after 22:30
- Services may be extremely busy
https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/strikesNeither the tfl website or Trainline are allowing me to do it.
Provision for the other two platforms and tracks was included in the station box to allow through running to destinations to the south and west of the airport on new rail alignments at some point in the future. This would minimise disruption to the T5 station during construction. A case of rare foresight and provision for a future scheme not yet funded, in the rail industry.
Various studies have been undertaken to decide the destinations where a south/western connection should go to and where the Heathrow branch should connect into the south western rail network. Destinations have included Waterloo (PAD to WAT via Heathrow) and Woking and beyond. I was involved in looking at track alignments for one study a few years back.
A significant issue is the increased barrier down time at level crossings in the Staines area on the Waterloo to Reading line, which would severely impact the local highway network, as a result of additional trains running to/from the airport.
This could be overcome by increased tunnelling, but at a huge additional expense. Replacing level crossings with bridges is difficult, expensive and disruptive in built-up locations.
I may be right in saying that provision of the south/west rail connection was a requirement for planning approval being granted for construction of the proposed third runway, which is still under consideration.
I think the south/west options are still undergoing feasibility studies, but progression will be affected by a decision on the third runway and confirmation of the need for the south/west connection due to the decrease in people travelling by rail following the Covid pandemic.
Separately, I believe Network Rail is still examining options for a direct connection facing Reading, extending from the existing northern connection to Heathrow. This would enable a Paddington to Reading service reversing at Terminal 5 and would enable some Great Western main line services to call at Heathrow.
A direct link to Heathrow from HS2 was considered in the early design phase around 10 years ago, with the HS2 Heathrow branch running along the Colne valley to west of Ruislip, where a triangular junction would provide connections to the north and London on the HS2 main line. The direct link was dropped in favour of a station at Old Oak Common to provide a Heathrow connection to/from HS2.
I would imagine that the cost of the Heathrow branch plus a new underground station at Heathrow, capable of accommodating 400m long HS2 trains, and the over-station development potential at Old Oak Common were significant factors in dropping the direct HS2:Heathrow link.
@clive
Do you know if tfl has published the fares for this journey?
If not I'll check the website later.
I am basically looking at alternative ways of getting to home games from Poole.
SouthWestern railways have disruption in December and the service on National Express coaches has completely gone down the toilet in the last 9 months.
I am thinking Crosscountry trains to and from Reading and then Crossrail to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood and back up from there.
Will assess journey times and fares.
Woolwich is the closest station to 'The Valley' where you have the option of plenty of buses opposite the station or a short walk to Woolwich Arsenal & a train from there.
Reading to Woolwich a Single fare price is
Contactless
Peak : £29.60 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930.
Off Peak: £13.90 At all other times including public holidays.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder?intcmp=54716
Or an off- peak travelcard between Reading/ London would cost £28.00 & would include travel on buses/train to/ from Charlton.
DESCRIPTION Unlimited off-peak travel by bus, train, tube, DLR and tram within relevant London Zones for one day. TRAIN OPERATOR Joint product offered by all Train Operators whose services operate between stations within the Travelcard area except Heathrow Express. Also available from some longer distance Train Operators to include travel from a station outside the zones. BOOKING DEADLINES None. DISCOUNTS Discounts available to holders of National Railcards and Network Cards REFUNDS A full refund is available if you return the completely unused ticket to the place of purchase within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid. Up to £10.00 fee will be charged. CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLANS If you wish to travel on a different date, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your original booking. A GBP10.00 per ticket fee will apply. CONDITIONS Available only within the zones displayed on the ticket and for one return journey to/from a station outside the zones where this is the station of origin. Only Travelcards with route "Plus High Speed" or "Any Permitted + HS" are valid on Southeastern high speed services.
https://www.thetrainline.com/Those Crossrail fares are really reasonable.
Getting to and from Reading will be the expensive part!!
I'm just wondering whether when they were thinking about a possible link to Woking, did nobody ask about the feasibility of extending such a link on to Redhill and *Gatwick* ? There is an existing line from Guildford to Redhill, and it looks quite straight on the map;such a link might still not be cheap , if it would be suitable for high speed running, but I wonder how much more expensive than the third runway? If you could link up the two airports with a fast high-capacity rail link, you change the options for possible expansion.
I've always thought this would be the smart solution especially after I took an ICE from Brussels to Frankfurt, and found that it stopped at a station called Cologne/Bonn Airport, and the next stop, after a 45 minute sprint, was...Frankfurt Airport.