Whilst I want them to be 'wiped out', it does seem like a huge catch 22 when there are many people who are on this continent nowhere near Syria, who are willing to retaliate when bombs are dropped over there.
I was talking about it with a friend earlier, and it just doesn't seem as though there is an end in sight. We're dealing with an enemy that seems to want Western civilization completely destroyed and are willing to kill themselves for it. What on earth is the solution to deal with something like that?!
We take the fight to them. Increase bombing. Send in a coalition of nations. It won't solve everything but IS need to be defeated in their stronghold. We wheedle out the jihadist preachers and nullify them. We stop at source the revenue streams to IS by any and every means possible. An act of war on France needs to be acted upon.
Whilst I respect and appreciate your optimism on how that could defeat them - again, what is stopping someone who is born and raised in this country but with those extreme beliefs getting their hands on a few guns and going on a rampage?
It won't. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't go to war on the murdering core of radical Islam which is IS. It's not the only battle that needs fighting. It's as least as important to work with the the vast majority of Muslims to eradicate hate preachers and marginalise those that have a warped view of the faith.
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
.....can I also add that the French have been bombing the area for the last few weeks, so I don't think this is in direct retaliation for Friday evening.
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
Whilst I want them to be 'wiped out', it does seem like a huge catch 22 when there are many people who are on this continent nowhere near Syria, who are willing to retaliate when bombs are dropped over there.
I was talking about it with a friend earlier, and it just doesn't seem as though there is an end in sight. We're dealing with an enemy that seems to want Western civilization completely destroyed and are willing to kill themselves for it. What on earth is the solution to deal with something like that?!
We take the fight to them. Increase bombing. Send in a coalition of nations. It won't solve everything but IS need to be defeated in their stronghold. We wheedle out the jihadist preachers and nullify them. We stop at source the revenue streams to IS by any and every means possible. An act of war on France needs to be acted upon.
Whilst I respect and appreciate your optimism on how that could defeat them - again, what is stopping someone who is born and raised in this country but with those extreme beliefs getting their hands on a few guns and going on a rampage?
It won't. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't go to war on the murdering core of radical Islam which is IS. It's not the only battle that needs fighting. It's as least as important to work with the the vast majority of Muslims to eradicate hate preachers and marginalise those that have a warped view of the faith.
Agreed - I wasn't suggesting we shouldn't go to war on them, was just musing around how it seems to be an endless cycle that feels insolvable.
The last sentence of your post is a very important factor I think.
First post on this thread - it's taken me 2 days to think rationally about this.
My first thoughts were to unleash a maelstrom on Syria and Iraq at all territory controlled by IS - missile after missile after missile until raised to the ground. Raise Mecca and Medina to the ground while we're at it. Collateral damage ?- so be it.
Then anger turned to despair for our world and the world my sons and eventually grandchildren will have to live in and with.
Rational thought has, I think, returned. If there is a solution it must be aimed at making the consequences to IS of actions taken by them something they cannot live with. There needs to be military action including boots on the ground in Syria , Libya and Iraq - whether that's the West in the primary form of the US and Russia working together, or the Muslim world cleansing their own sewers. The problem with the latter is Sunni versus Shia. Iran is the predominate Shia country but they would never work with the Saudis and Eqypt, both Sunni - Turkey is predominately Sunni but a member of NATO. Al qaeda and IS are/were Sunni lead - but setting the war dogs of Iran on IS would draw (more) support for IS from the Saudis. Which side does the West take? Probably easier politically to do it ourselves.
The days of defending against terrorist attacks by using proactive intelligence (and our guys are probably the best at it) is over. They have got through and will continue to get through - London and other major cities in the UK are almost certainly on borrowed time. Time to take the fight to them in a meaningful and surgical way.
I think he was referring to the people and groups committing these atrocities, rather than Muslims or Islam as a whole etc.
Seem to be a small group of people on here working themselves up into a righteous lather of hatred and trying to outdo how "tough" they would be - the same people have also been making frankly offensive and chilling statements which they then claim to have been ambiguous or misinterpreted .
Perhaps you ought to be a little more precise about what you post.
I think he was referring to the people and groups committing these atrocities, rather than Muslims or Islam as a whole etc.
Seem to be a small group of people on here working themselves up into a righteous lather of hatred and trying to outdo how "tough" they would be - the same people have also been making frankly offensive and chilling statements which they then claim to have been ambiguous or misinterpreted .
Perhaps you ought to be a little more precise about what you post.
Give me an example of how my post coulda been more precise then.
I've respectfully read other peoples posts and opinions, so i think its fair that I give mine.
People keep telling me that ISIS don't represent true Islam, but I always go back to that eerie statistic that 27% of Muslims sympathised with the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
How are you going to select the 500 people you want to kill?
PS I do not have a daughter even though I would like to have one.
Well that's really odd because PaddyP17 claims that Seth (who was at the meeting and who apologised to Katrien) is her Dad. Perhaps there are two Seth's on CL
PaddyP17 Member November 11 Said I'd provide a writeup ladies and gents. Seth's not home yet, but here it is anyway, based on the fairly comprehensive tweets:
We're fucked.
and
PaddyP17 Member November 11
Hartleypete said:
1) because I can not see what they bring to the table, might be wrong but that's my opinion.
2) no why where you?
3) why make such an assumption.
1) Okay fine. Can't swing anyone on that.
2) My dad was, and will be providing an update with my assistance in I presume "a bit" when he gets back home.
3) Have been following the tweets and this page. Have also seen the questions the "consortium" (for want of a better word) had drafted. Haven't seen any questions, other than inane ones, quoted in the vast majority of the tweets.
PaddyP17 said --
Oh fucking lol this is truly excellent. I love how this evidence all explicitly states my gender.
Except oh wait. It doesn't. Just like all this stuff you want to claim is "evidence" to perpetrate your point isn't actually evidence at all.
My name is Paddy. Which, believe it or not, is a derivative of Patrick, which (unless there is some really really weird joke being played on me and the legions of other people called Patrick) is a male name...
What makes me seem female? I mean, statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority of football followers and forum posters are male, so, ah... I'm intrigued.
PaddyP17 Member November 1 How is this anything other than a 14-year-long miscarriage of justice? Proper process simply has not been observed.
I'm a young good for nothing student type bleeding heart left wing radical anarcho-feminist environmentalist type though to you, aren't I? So please do what you seem to have been doing for the last 120 posts and discredit me based on the fact I voted Green (there, I said it).
QA said --
Not too many blokes refer to themselves as being feminists though, do they? Anyway your gender is of no relevance to me, I just don't tolerate dishonesty and being mislead very well. What it does reveal however, is that half the Lefty hit squad (Seth Plumb and Paddy) on this particular thread -
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
How are you going to select the 500 people you want to kill?
Those found guilty of supporting or aiding terrorist groups are executed.
Chilling because I said that if intelligence exists, these people cannot, and must not, be given the benefit of doubt, or innocent people will get slaughtered. That has now played out, yet again. You Seth, dismissed the intelligence against Aamer that I presented, out of hand, and you, your daughter and Chizz were more concerned about any violation of his human rights, and that he should be well compensated, than you were about any potential risk that he posed in light of that intelligence information. It is like you are all in denial. Chizz stated yesterday that we are not at war, despite the fact that world leaders including Hollande are now admitting that it is war. In war, you do not appease your enemy, you take them out of the equation by locking them up or killing them. They certainly have no qualms about killing us. Until such time that you acknowledge the fact that we are at war, our lands will continue to be occupied, our way of life diminished, our laws and values trashed. That is exactly what Mohammed advocates in the Koran, ISIS are now following his teachings to the letter. Sharia law already exists in the UK. How have we allowed our judicial system to be hijacked in such away? How can we allow Muslims to stand on our streets openly admitting that they don't recognise our laws and refuse to abide by them? People first need to educate themselves about Mohammed and the origins of Islam, and not just accept the false assertion that Islam is the religion of peace, it's not. Mohammed was a violent man and many of his teachings advocate violence, including striking off the heads of infidels, wife beating etc. If "moderate" muslims want to live peacefully amongst us, they are most welcome. But they must live according to OUR laws and close down their Sharia courts immediately. And if they are serious about their hatred of ISIS, they will come together and issue a FATWA against them, and then set about reforming their religion so that it is no longer a magnet for these extremist nutters. In the meantime I want to see anyone found to have close associations with ISIS locked up and I don't care if they throw away the key, so long as innocent people are kept safe. Don't want to be locked up? Then live a good clean life and stay well away from other terrorists, that's not difficult.
Seth Plum said -
I did not dismiss what you posted out of hand. I said consistently that if he was guilty of something then put him on trial.
What's wrong with that?
Because he had already been on trial 6 times, they couldn't lay anything on him. They can't lay anything on any terrorist until they actually carry out the atrocity, by which time it's far too bloody late. They have to go on the intelligence that they have and take proactive action. Strong links to other terrorists and terrorist organisations has to be enough to get them off our streets.
You have mentioned left wingers, and I mentioned the right wing Brevik, do you want anybody found to have close associations with right wing organisations locked up, and you don't care if they throw away the key?
Brevik was a deranged far right nutjob acting alone, so far more difficult to gather intelligence and apprehend before he struck. Had he belonged to a far right organisation that the West was at war with (like ISIS) and they had intelligence that he was plotting to carry out an atrocity, then yes, lock him up and throw away the key. There's no place for killing innocent people, left, right, pink or purple. But people of the left (like you) want to make sure that their human rights haven't been infringed and that we can't possibly lock them up unless they have been convicted and proved to be guilty. People like you would have complained had Brevik been locked up merely for acquiring tons of fertiliser and acquiring a stash of guns. I say toughen up and get real. Protect innocent people!
Isn't the point that on the extremes everywhere there are dangerous fanatics, and dangerous fanatics are not allowed licence by left wing inclined people, any more than they are allowed licence by right wing people.
But people like you and your son/daughter, Chizz etc, do give them licence with your politically correct, nicey, nicey, softly softly approach, that's the whole problem.
You assume to know about my hierarchy of concerns...as in more concerned about human rights than your particular agenda, how do you know what concerns me most?
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
How are you going to select the 500 people you want to kill?
Bombing Raqqa must feel good and like I said earlier, who can blame the French for doing so.
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
How are you going to select the 500 people you want to kill?
With raffle tickets, sure they'll be queuing up to get their virgins
Its okay flagging posts, but surely it should be followed up with some sort of explanation. I genuinely think that we're now facing the biggest threat since 1939 and its time to proactively root out these vermin. I think that people who believe that good will prevail are living in cloud cockoo land (look at those poor AID workers mercylessly beheaded over the last 2-3 years), but I'm happy to read your thoughts without using thr stupid flag button.
Would also like to add that i think all this talk of them just wanting us to react, so that's just what we shouldn't do, is a massive load of bollocks. I think that these people want us all dead and I think there's many many of them who think like that living amongst us.
He was of three people in a car stopped by police, but then allowed to continue his journey, near the Belgian border on Saturday. So that's at least three potential terrorists who are still out there courtest of the French Police/Security Forces.
Its okay flagging posts, but surely it should be followed up with some sort of explanation. I genuinely think that we're now facing the biggest threat since 1939 and its time to proactively root out these vermin. I think that people who believe that good will prevail are living in cloud cockoo land (look at those poor AID workers mercylessly beheaded over the last 2-3 years), but I'm happy to read your thoughts without using thr stupid flag button.
Too right. The appeasement, the self righteous, kindly, gentle, softly, softly approach is seen by ISIS as a sign of great weakness which they happily exploit. It seems we learned nothing from the days of Neville Chamberlain.
Comments
Re. the Islamists living in France, they need to deport about 100,000 after shooting 400-500 of them to set an example, then take it from there IMO
If, and it's a big IF, they take my advice I reckon other European countries will follow suit and it will result in the eradication of this menace from Our society for ever. Here's hoping eh
The last sentence of your post is a very important factor I think.
My first thoughts were to unleash a maelstrom on Syria and Iraq at all territory controlled by IS - missile after missile after missile until raised to the ground. Raise Mecca and Medina to the ground while we're at it. Collateral damage ?- so be it.
Then anger turned to despair for our world and the world my sons and eventually grandchildren will have to live in and with.
Rational thought has, I think, returned. If there is a solution it must be aimed at making the consequences to IS of actions taken by them something they cannot live with. There needs to be military action including boots on the ground in Syria , Libya and Iraq - whether that's the West in the primary form of the US and Russia working together, or the Muslim world cleansing their own sewers. The problem with the latter is Sunni versus Shia. Iran is the predominate Shia country but they would never work with the Saudis and Eqypt, both Sunni - Turkey is predominately Sunni but a member of NATO. Al qaeda and IS are/were Sunni lead - but setting the war dogs of Iran on IS would draw (more) support for IS from the Saudis. Which side does the West take? Probably easier politically to do it ourselves.
The days of defending against terrorist attacks by using proactive intelligence (and our guys are probably the best at it) is over. They have got through and will continue to get through - London and other major cities in the UK are almost certainly on borrowed time. Time to take the fight to them in a meaningful and surgical way.
I'm talking about fighting fire with fire and not pussy foot around, this is a war after all
Perhaps you ought to be a little more precise about what you post.
I've respectfully read other peoples posts and opinions, so i think its fair that I give mine.
Now that's scary.
PS I do not have a daughter even though I would like to have one.
Well that's really odd because PaddyP17 claims that Seth (who was at the meeting and who apologised to Katrien) is her Dad. Perhaps there are two Seth's on CL
PaddyP17 Member
November 11
Said I'd provide a writeup ladies and gents. Seth's not home yet, but here it is anyway, based on the fairly comprehensive tweets:
We're fucked.
and
PaddyP17 Member
November 11
Hartleypete said:
1) because I can not see what they bring to the table, might be wrong but that's my opinion.
2) no why where you?
3) why make such an assumption.
1) Okay fine. Can't swing anyone on that.
2) My dad was, and will be providing an update with my assistance in I presume "a bit" when he gets back home.
3) Have been following the tweets and this page. Have also seen the questions the "consortium" (for want of a better word) had drafted. Haven't seen any questions, other than inane ones, quoted in the vast majority of the tweets.
PaddyP17 said --
Oh fucking lol this is truly excellent. I love how this evidence all explicitly states my gender.
Except oh wait. It doesn't. Just like all this stuff you want to claim is "evidence" to perpetrate your point isn't actually evidence at all.
My name is Paddy. Which, believe it or not, is a derivative of Patrick, which (unless there is some really really weird joke being played on me and the legions of other people called Patrick) is a male name...
What makes me seem female? I mean, statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority of football followers and forum posters are male, so, ah... I'm intrigued.
PaddyP17 Member
November 1
How is this anything other than a 14-year-long miscarriage of justice? Proper process simply has not been observed.
I'm a young good for nothing student type bleeding heart left wing radical anarcho-feminist environmentalist type though to you, aren't I? So please do what you seem to have been doing for the last 120 posts and discredit me based on the fact I voted Green (there, I said it).
QA said --
Not too many blokes refer to themselves as being feminists though, do they?
Anyway your gender is of no relevance to me, I just don't tolerate dishonesty and being mislead very well. What it does reveal however, is that half the Lefty hit squad (Seth Plumb and Paddy) on this particular thread -
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/69688/shaker-aamer-released/p4
were actually a father/son or daughter tag team.
Chilling because I said that if intelligence exists, these people cannot, and must not, be given the benefit of doubt, or innocent people will get slaughtered. That has now played out, yet again.
You Seth, dismissed the intelligence against Aamer that I presented, out of hand, and you, your daughter and Chizz were more concerned about any violation of his human rights, and that he should be well compensated, than you were about any potential risk that he posed in light of that intelligence information.
It is like you are all in denial. Chizz stated yesterday that we are not at war, despite the fact that world leaders including Hollande are now admitting that it is war. In war, you do not appease your enemy, you take them out of the equation by locking them up or killing them. They certainly have no qualms about killing us.
Until such time that you acknowledge the fact that we are at war, our lands will continue to be occupied, our way of life diminished, our laws and values trashed.
That is exactly what Mohammed advocates in the Koran, ISIS are now following his teachings to the letter. Sharia law already exists in the UK. How have we allowed our judicial system to be hijacked in such away? How can we allow Muslims to stand on our streets openly admitting that they don't recognise our laws and refuse to abide by them?
People first need to educate themselves about Mohammed and the origins of Islam, and not just accept the false assertion that Islam is the religion of peace, it's not. Mohammed was a violent man and many of his teachings advocate violence, including striking off the heads of infidels, wife beating etc.
If "moderate" muslims want to live peacefully amongst us, they are most welcome. But they must live according to OUR laws and close down their Sharia courts immediately. And if they are serious about their hatred of ISIS, they will come together and issue a FATWA against them, and then set about reforming their religion so that it is no longer a magnet for these extremist nutters.
In the meantime I want to see anyone found to have close associations with ISIS locked up and I don't care if they throw away the key, so long as innocent people are kept safe. Don't want to be locked up? Then live a good clean life and stay well away from other terrorists, that's not difficult.
Seth Plum said -
I did not dismiss what you posted out of hand. I said consistently that if he was guilty of something then put him on trial.
What's wrong with that?
Because he had already been on trial 6 times, they couldn't lay anything on him. They can't lay anything on any terrorist until they actually carry out the atrocity, by which time it's far too bloody late. They have to go on the intelligence that they have and take proactive action. Strong links to other terrorists and terrorist organisations has to be enough to get them off our streets.
You have mentioned left wingers, and I mentioned the right wing Brevik, do you want anybody found to have close associations with right wing organisations locked up, and you don't care if they throw away the key?
Brevik was a deranged far right nutjob acting alone, so far more difficult to gather intelligence and apprehend before he struck. Had he belonged to a far right organisation that the West was at war with (like ISIS) and they had intelligence that he was plotting to carry out an atrocity, then yes, lock him up and throw away the key. There's no place for killing innocent people, left, right, pink or purple.
But people of the left (like you) want to make sure that their human rights haven't been infringed and that we can't possibly lock them up unless they have been convicted and proved to be guilty. People like you would have complained had Brevik been locked up merely for acquiring tons of fertiliser and acquiring a stash of guns. I say toughen up and get real. Protect innocent people!
Isn't the point that on the extremes everywhere there are dangerous fanatics, and dangerous fanatics are not allowed licence by left wing inclined people, any more than they are allowed licence by right wing people.
But people like you and your son/daughter, Chizz etc, do give them licence with your politically correct, nicey, nicey, softly softly approach, that's the whole problem.
You assume to know about my hierarchy of concerns...as in more concerned about human rights than your particular agenda, how do you know what concerns me most?
By analysing your writings in threads like this -
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/69688/shaker-aamer-released/p1
Others can draw their own conclusions.
PS I do not have a daughter even though I would like to have one.
I have already replied to your child who refers to himself as a feminist !
http://news.yahoo.com/hear-president-obama-john-kerry-152232541.html
Its not against Islam