Here's where I see the problem with all the 'Hillary is a criminal' frothery. It's all shit, given oxygen by lunatics who, sadly, get the same amount of airtime and respect from people as those actually knowledgeable on the subject. Like SD, I work in cybersecurity - have done for something like ten years after serving my time as a regular IT wonk. What she did is no different, in substance to what Colin Powell did whilst in office. Most people wouldn't know what a 'private email server' even is, let alone the subtleties of difference between running your own, and using a private email address from another provider.
The lack of listening to 'experts' in this day and age is highly worrying. It harkens back to the middle ages, where people of intelligence weren't seen as worthy of listening to and were instead mocked by the masses. Witness the shambles around Wakefield, where the media drummed up a panic over a completely non scientific, thoroughly ridiculed paper, subsequently discovered to be tainted by outside funding. They painted a picture of Wakefield being a lone crusader against the big pharmaceutical companies, when in reality he was nothing more than a charlatan, a shill for other business interests. This led to a drop in herd immunity against easily eradicable illnesses like measles, mumps and German measles - and as a result, those diseases - with real consequences, have made a comeback
People like Michael Gove with his "people have had enough of experts" make me sick. The media in general is atrocious. The US election highlights it like nothing else - but the insidiousness of it is constant.
A couple of years ago we were on holiday walking along the promenade. Some bloke came up to me and my wife and started chatting to us about the history of the town and pointing out landmarks, etc.. He was a bit odd (I was thinking learning difficulties or something) but as he was walking the same way as us chatting I didn't think anything of it and we went our separate ways after a couple of minutes.
It wasn't until later that my missus told me that every time I looked away he was feeling her up! Nothing serious or worth pursuing with the authorities and we never saw him again. She had spent the entire time knocking his hands away or trying to get me between her and him. I was completely oblivious to any of this happening.
If you had said to me my wife would have put up with this sort of behaviour I'd have laughed at you. She did so because of any number of reasons not least of all because she was embarrassed and did not want to cause a scene. I expect those (9?10?!!) women who have now come forward with these allegations against Trump may well have similar legitimate reasons...or at least some do even if your "dirty tricks" theory is even partially correct.
My point being you simply cannot say what you did (and attribute your view as being evidence of a wider pattern of behaviour in a given situation) until the situation arises.
Thank you for sharing this. I am sorry on so many levels (to you and in general) that you had to share such a story to explain how sexual assault works.
I've said before. The Trump campaign (namely Trump) has been very clever. He (they) have deliberately spread the allegations of 'crooked Hilary' and the like to cancel out what he knows is the view of him. Hence the phrases like 'the 2 most hated Presidential nominees ever'. This has been a terrific con job on behalf of the Trump camp.
A couple of years ago we were on holiday walking along the promenade. Some bloke came up to me and my wife and started chatting to us about the history of the town and pointing out landmarks, etc.. He was a bit odd (I was thinking learning difficulties or something) but as he was walking the same way as us chatting I didn't think anything of it and we went our separate ways after a couple of minutes.
It wasn't until later that my missus told me that every time I looked away he was feeling her up! Nothing serious or worth pursuing with the authorities and we never saw him again. She had spent the entire time knocking his hands away or trying to get me between her and him. I was completely oblivious to any of this happening.
If you had said to me my wife would have put up with this sort of behaviour I'd have laughed at you. She did so because of any number of reasons not least of all because she was embarrassed and did not want to cause a scene. I expect those (9?10?!!) women who have now come forward with these allegations against Trump may well have similar legitimate reasons...or at least some do even if your "dirty tricks" theory is even partially correct.
My point being you simply cannot say what you did (and attribute your view as being evidence of a wider pattern of behaviour in a given situation) until the situation arises.
Thank you for sharing this. I am sorry on so many levels (to you and in general) that you had to share such a story to explain how sexual assault works.
It's no big deal tbh and we were able to have a laugh about it soon afterwards, furious though I was at the time that he had done this. But that was because that was the way she dealt with it and working in Fleet St and city offices in the late 70's and 80's she's experienced much worse in a work environment at the hands of men who seem to share Trump's sense of entitlement.
Other people would react differently to the "Azores Groper" at the time and after, which QA seems to overlook because it doesn't fit his theory that these women are doing it for political or other reasons.
One thing I'm finding disappointing about this whole recent discussion is the way someone with such a right vs left agenda is pitching the issue of sexual abuse.
This is an issue that should be beyond left vs right politics, so I think it's quite disturbing that someone whose written references to the 'left' in the context of sexual abuse is loaded with such an undisguised sneer that it would be tempting to think that the issue of sexual abuse is about left vs right politics and that that poster represents a typical right wing view.
One thing I'm finding disappointing about this whole recent discussion is the way someone with such a right vs left agenda is pitching the issue of sexual abuse.
This is an issue that should be beyond left vs right politics, so I think it's quite disturbing that someone whose written references to the 'left' in the context of sexual abuse is loaded with such an undisguised sneer that it would be tempting to think that the issue of sexual abuse is about left vs right politics and that that poster represents a typical right wing view.
I'm pretty confident that he doesn't.
Unfortunately we've seen some of that in this country as well. Some who support Trump have come out with similar lines to what QA repeated, "why now" or "who cares?" Some of the women accusing Trump have come out as having said "the reason why is because he said in the second debate, when question by Anderson Cooper, that he'd never done that (in reference to what he talked about doing on the Access Hollywood bus tape)."
But frankly it speaks to a larger truth, at least in this country, and I imagine in Britain if the Ched Evans (and thread) and Adam Jonhson cases are anything to go on. As soon as a woman comes forward, they are put on trial. What are their sexual habits, what was their response, why didn't they try to stop it, etc? It's a large part of the reason why, estimates in this country have it as high as 90% of rapes and sexual assaults go unreported.
One thing I'm finding disappointing about this whole recent discussion is the way someone with such a right vs left agenda is pitching the issue of sexual abuse.
This is an issue that should be beyond left vs right politics, so I think it's quite disturbing that someone whose written references to the 'left' in the context of sexual abuse is loaded with such an undisguised sneer that it would be tempting to think that the issue of sexual abuse is about left vs right politics and that that poster represents a typical right wing view.
I'm pretty confident that he doesn't.
Unfortunately we've seen some of that in this country as well. Some who support Trump have come out with similar lines to what QA repeated, "why now" or "who cares?" Some of the women accusing Trump have come out as having said "the reason why is because he said in the second debate, when question by Anderson Cooper, that he'd never done that (in reference to what he talked about doing on the Access Hollywood bus tape)."
But frankly it speaks to a larger truth, at least in this country, and I imagine in Britain if the Ched Evans (and thread) and Adam Jonhson cases are anything to go on. As soon as a woman comes forward, they are put on trial. What are their sexual habits, what was their response, why didn't they try to stop it, etc? It's a large part of the reason why, estimates in this country have it as high as 90% of rapes and sexual assaults go unreported.
In the U.K. only 5.7% of reported cases of rape result in a conviction. That is 5.7% of 10% of the estimated total cases, less than 1 in 100 convictions.
I have to apologize, when I earlier states that only 1/10 rapes are unreported, the number it actually closer to 1/3. That said, only 6% of rapist see jail time.
Some time ago now my sister was raped at university. She did not go to the police because she had, by her own admission, a bit to drink.
She has never managed to close that out in her head.
I probably didn't help as older brother asking for details of the perp, she wouldn't tell me. She knew I'd have found him and sometimes it's difficult to stop yourself from causing major damage.
Any sort of abuse of this kind, penetrative or otherwise is wrong and, as a result, criminal.
Trump is fortunate, if not unusual, in having swerved criminal charges, they are very hard to prove and very often not taken up.
I think it is fairly nailed on he is a groper. Is he worse than that? I haven't seen anything to suggest that yet.
Clinton v Trump is a disappointment to all Americans.
The alarming thing for me is that whether the genie is out of the bottle. I think it's pretty clear now Trump is going to lose, he's just done too much damage and there's too much muck against his name even for him - but why assume that in the next election there won't be another Trump? Or even (god help us all) a Trump equivalent on both sides? Some chancer with a massive ego and too much money getting much too close to being President of the USA? More than a few of Clinton voters are pretty much only voting for her because she's not Trump. If she doesn't stand again, or her term is unsuccessful and there's not a credible candidate, we could all be in a lot of trouble in a few years...
Some time ago now my sister was raped at university. She did not go to the police because she had, by her own admission, a bit to drink.
She has never managed to close that out in her head.
I probably didn't help as older brother asking for details of the perp, she wouldn't tell me. She knew I'd have found him and sometimes it's difficult to stop yourself from causing major damage.
Any sort of abuse of this kind, penetrative or otherwise is wrong and, as a result, criminal.
Trump is fortunate, if not unusual, in having swerved criminal charges, they are very hard to prove and very often not taken up.
I think it is fairly nailed on he is a groper. Is he worse than that? I haven't seen anything to suggest that yet.
Clinton v Trump is a disappointment to all Americans.
For what it's worth, a stranger on the internet giving advice to your sister via you, that should not matter. And that, emphatically, does not make it her fault.
In California we just introduced a "yes means yes" standard of consent, which means that anything short of express statement of consent is considered non-consensual. Hopefully it will take some of the burden and internalized guilt away from victims coming forward.
I hope your sister has found some sort of peace. Everyone I know who has been through similar circumstances struggles "to close it out."
He also stated he would sue these "liars" once the election is over. Somewhat undermines his own case a little though by being on record as stating he thinks he can start kissing and groping them because he's famous. so we shall see.
@SDAddick - Michael Moore's Trump documentary opened in cinemas last week : how has it been received, please? I understood it was rather more a pro-Clinton film than an anti- Trump one.
(Apologies, btw, if this has already been covered.)
Surprised if he's pro-Clinton to be honest. I recall Moore saying something like "Bill Clinton was as dodgy as anyone, but at least the world liked him. He made America popular, compared to GWB." or words to the effect in Dude Where's My Country.
Queesland said "Mate, it's 3am, I really need to get to bed! Your definition of "concrete" will be different to mine. I try to look at things from a neutral perspective despite my conservative views. I read statistics recently that 96% of media stories were anti Trump, 23 odd minutes of air time were dedicated to his private "bus" comments, compared to less than a minute dedicated to the Wikileaks revelations about Hillary's open boarders comments, or the possible bribe to the FBI to downgrade her email classifications. I get a rough overview of news stories each day from logging on to Google News and Bing News and I have to say my personal experience is that the 96% anti Trump figure is about right. I've yet to read a positive story about Trump in this campaign. That simply doesn't correlate with a candidate who is only around 7/8 points behind in the polls, love him or hate him. The decision to release the infamous bus tape only 30 days before the election IMO, was a deliberate attempt by the media to ensure Hillary's election. Why for example couldn't they release it in January, when there was still time to find another Republican candidate? Why so many women coming forward in unison, and why has there been no checking of flight manifests, flight dates, no complaints to airline staff at the time, or even a mention to her friends or relatives? Why did this woman allow him to touch her boobs, but drew the line when he went lower? So far the only concrete evidence we have are his crude sexist words on that bus. Yet we know Bill lied and got himself a blowjob from an intern in the oval office and had numerous affairs, and Hillary who backed her husband in the face of these acts (not just words like Trump) gets next to zero questioning about this from the media, or demands for her to apologise to the women involved. The media are there to report the News, not make the news, or deliberately try to influence outcomes by imposing their own bias on the populace. Almost every article I read these days should be labelled "opinion piece" because that is what reporting has sadly become. I would say that Silicon Valley is now totally dominated by the left and I am finding it harder by the day to find balanced reporting anywhere. Brietbart and Fox News are biased to the right, but really I like to hear and see unbiased facts so that I can make up my own mind. For example there was a very large march in Paris last week against Gay Marriage, I only found out yesterday, because it received next to zero press coverage. There was another one in Mexico last month, nothing about that either! Anyway must get some sleep now and will look forward to the deluge, of "sexist, homophobic, racist, xenophobic, dinosaur, nutjob" jibes from my Charlton "mates" in the morning. Setriously mate. When you wake up, read that sentence again and have a re-think. What you've put here (and I am sure it's a 4am comment that you might not have made when fully awake) suggests something pretty awful. "Well, Your Honour, she let me fondle her breasts, so she's fair game, isn't she?"
I know of no woman who would allow some random bloke to sit next to her and let him have his arms all over her "like an octopus" without either screaming, slapping him in the face, chucking red wine over his shirt, or at least tell a stewardess about it, then stay silent about it for 30 years.
Covered end said, "You are so so wrong. Try watching the Jimmy Savile documentaries as a starting point and you'll see how wrong you are."
A real shame you lol the fact that women are sexually assaulted and don't scream out immediately.
I can't see the humour in sexual assault.
Watch this if you can. Louis Theroux on Savile. He did similar type things (and a whole lot more of course, although as it never came to trial perhaps you are a Jimmy Savile supporter as well ?
Queensland said, I'm lol'ing because I made a statement of fact (that you or anyone else on this board), are in no position to refute. I repeat: I know of no woman who would allow some random bloke to sit next to her and let him have his arms all over her "like an octopus" without either screaming, slapping him in the face, chucking red wine over his shirt, or at least tell a stewardess about it, then stay silent about it for 30 years. There's a little word at the start of it, the "I", it's kind of important ! Yes I saw the program, I know all about Saville. I also know about Cliff Richard, Jim Davidson, Freddie Starr, Dave Osman. Savile's victims were, in the main, young, or underprivileged, or disabled. The attacks did not take place on Planes, or in nightclubs or in rooms full of people, as is being alleged with Trump. Trumps accusers are nothing like Jimmy Saville's victims. The only similarity being that they are female. What's really abhorrent is that you, or those that "like" you, should imply that I condone the actions of a grub like Saville, simply because I made a statement of fact about the women in my life. As a father of two teenage girls, your post has really angered me.
Covered end said, I've not been on here for a while.
So because you don't know anyone that has been sexually molested, you and they cannot possibly know how they would react. Trump must be innocent ? What a crock.
No one can say how they would react to being molested, until it happens to them.
Thousands of women and men are stunned into silence and don't then come forward for a whole variety of reasons.
How you think everyone will definitely shout & scream and and then go the police etc, is beyond my comprehension.
It is FACT that not everyone reports rape or sexual assault.
Savile molested women who said nothing and if you saw the Louis Theroux documentary you would know that.
They said nothing because they were astounded, couldn't believe it, didn't think they would be believed against someone "so powerful". God help the future of young women in particular, if juries have similar views to yourself.
How about Trump is elected President and within weeks he's arrested for sexual abuse ?
He also stated he would sue these "liars" once the election is over. Somewhat undermines his own case a little though by being on record as stating he thinks he can start kissing and groping them because he's famous. so we shall see.
Trump has a long long history of loudly threatening to sue people and then not suing them. So far he's 3 for 41 (3 lawsuits from 41 threats), and there's evening a clock on how long he's managed to go without threatening to sue someone.
@SDAddick - Michael Moore's Trump documentary opened in cinemas last week : how has it been received, please? I understood it was rather more a pro-Clinton film than an anti- Trump one.
(Apologies, btw, if this has already been covered.)
To Jimmy's point, yeah Moore was very much in the Bernie Sanders camp but has very much been a part of the call to arms to say "we need to do whatever it takes to defeat Trump."
To be honest GHF, this one has largely flown under my radar. I don't know many people who are huge Michael Moore fans, or who are massively rank-and-file Democrats and thus would be drawn to something like this. I think everyone is a little burnt out on MM. I'll ask around and see if I can find anyone who has seen it or has strong feelings about it.
@SDAddick - Michael Moore's Trump documentary opened in cinemas last week : how has it been received, please? I understood it was rather more a pro-Clinton film than an anti- Trump one.
(Apologies, btw, if this has already been covered.)
To Jimmy's point, yeah Moore was very much in the Bernie Sanders camp but has very much been a part of the call to arms to say "we need to do whatever it takes to defeat Trump."
To be honest GHF, this one has largely flown under my radar. I don't know many people who are huge Michael Moore fans, or who are massively rank-and-file Democrats and thus would be drawn to something like this. I think everyone is a little burnt out on MM. I'll ask around and see if I can find anyone who has seen it or has strong feelings about it.
Many thanks, SDA. I hadn't realised that Moore has become something of a yesterday's man. Certainly the new film has drawn little attention here, perhaps because extolling HRC is less appealing than would have been the blood sport of an all-out Trump hunt.
Moore galvanised the republican vote with Fahrenheit 911. Then made two documentaries that didn't do too well. Sicko was good but he did hold Cuba and France up as role models for healthcare, kinda bashing the US in the process, while the last doc, Where To Invade Next, was a flop, so it's been diminishing returns for him since Bowling for Columbine. If he'd done the Trump one off the back of BFC (as was the case with Fahrenheit), the press and public would be going mad for him.
Donald Trump's Gold star on the Hollywood walk of Fame has been smashed by a guy with a sledgehammer. This is a terrible crime ! How on Earth Did Trump get a gold star in Hollywood ?
Comments
The lack of listening to 'experts' in this day and age is highly worrying. It harkens back to the middle ages, where people of intelligence weren't seen as worthy of listening to and were instead mocked by the masses. Witness the shambles around Wakefield, where the media drummed up a panic over a completely non scientific, thoroughly ridiculed paper, subsequently discovered to be tainted by outside funding. They painted a picture of Wakefield being a lone crusader against the big pharmaceutical companies, when in reality he was nothing more than a charlatan, a shill for other business interests. This led to a drop in herd immunity against easily eradicable illnesses like measles, mumps and German measles - and as a result, those diseases - with real consequences, have made a comeback
People like Michael Gove with his "people have had enough of experts" make me sick. The media in general is atrocious. The US election highlights it like nothing else - but the insidiousness of it is constant.
https://youtu.be/NnRVAzFa6Og
But credit where it's due - his "Pardon me" joke was quality.
Not everyone has bought it.
25logicalreasonstovotefordonaldtrump.com
Other people would react differently to the "Azores Groper" at the time and after, which QA seems to overlook because it doesn't fit his theory that these women are doing it for political or other reasons.
This is an issue that should be beyond left vs right politics, so I think it's quite disturbing that someone whose written references to the 'left' in the context of sexual abuse is loaded with such an undisguised sneer that it would be tempting to think that the issue of sexual abuse is about left vs right politics and that that poster represents a typical right wing view.
I'm pretty confident that he doesn't.
But frankly it speaks to a larger truth, at least in this country, and I imagine in Britain if the Ched Evans (and thread) and Adam Jonhson cases are anything to go on. As soon as a woman comes forward, they are put on trial. What are their sexual habits, what was their response, why didn't they try to stop it, etc? It's a large part of the reason why, estimates in this country have it as high as 90% of rapes and sexual assaults go unreported.
If you want a very thorough account of that, you can read the letter by the rape victim of Brock Turner, the Stanford rapist and swimmer who ended up serving six months for rape:
(warning, contains all kinds of graphical things about rape and the general shittiness of mankind)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra?utm_term=.oxR4EZ2YJ#.xb09R43Mq
For more:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
I can't take the us election seriously , very very worried
She has never managed to close that out in her head.
I probably didn't help as older brother asking for details of the perp, she wouldn't tell me. She knew I'd have found him and sometimes it's difficult to stop yourself from causing major damage.
Any sort of abuse of this kind, penetrative or otherwise is wrong and, as a result, criminal.
Trump is fortunate, if not unusual, in having swerved criminal charges, they are very hard to prove and very often not taken up.
I think it is fairly nailed on he is a groper. Is he worse than that? I haven't seen anything to suggest that yet.
Clinton v Trump is a disappointment to all Americans.
In California we just introduced a "yes means yes" standard of consent, which means that anything short of express statement of consent is considered non-consensual. Hopefully it will take some of the burden and internalized guilt away from victims coming forward.
I hope your sister has found some sort of peace. Everyone I know who has been through similar circumstances struggles "to close it out."
independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-jessica-drake-porn-star-sexual-assault-claims-grabbed-kissed-republican-latest-a7376161.html
He also stated he would sue these "liars" once the election is over. Somewhat undermines his own case a little though by being on record as stating he thinks he can start kissing and groping them because he's famous. so we shall see.
For his 1993 book, “The Lost Tycoon,” Harry Hurt III acquired Ivana’s divorce deposition, in which she stated that Trump raped her.
@SDAddick - Michael Moore's Trump documentary opened in cinemas last week : how has it been received, please? I understood it was rather more a pro-Clinton film than an anti- Trump one.
(Apologies, btw, if this has already been covered.)
Setriously mate. When you wake up, read that sentence again and have a re-think. What you've put here (and I am sure it's a 4am comment that you might not have made when fully awake) suggests something pretty awful. "Well, Your Honour, she let me fondle her breasts, so she's fair game, isn't she?"
I know of no woman who would allow some random bloke to sit next to her and let him have his arms all over her "like an octopus" without either screaming, slapping him in the face, chucking red wine over his shirt, or at least tell a stewardess about it, then stay silent about it for 30 years.
Covered end said, "You are so so wrong. Try watching the Jimmy Savile documentaries as a starting point and you'll see how wrong you are."
A real shame you lol the fact that women are sexually assaulted and don't scream out immediately.
I can't see the humour in sexual assault.
Watch this if you can. Louis Theroux on Savile. He did similar type things (and a whole lot more of course, although as it never came to trial perhaps you are a Jimmy Savile supporter as well ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05qzmgd
Queensland said, I'm lol'ing because I made a statement of fact (that you or anyone else on this board), are in no position to refute. I repeat:
I know of no woman who would allow some random bloke to sit next to her and let him have his arms all over her "like an octopus" without either screaming, slapping him in the face, chucking red wine over his shirt, or at least tell a stewardess about it, then stay silent about it for 30 years.
There's a little word at the start of it, the "I", it's kind of important !
Yes I saw the program, I know all about Saville. I also know about Cliff Richard, Jim Davidson, Freddie Starr, Dave Osman.
Savile's victims were, in the main, young, or underprivileged, or disabled. The attacks did not take place on Planes, or in nightclubs or in rooms full of people, as is being alleged with Trump. Trumps accusers are nothing like Jimmy Saville's victims. The only similarity being that they are female.
What's really abhorrent is that you, or those that "like" you, should imply that I condone the actions of a grub like Saville, simply because I made a statement of fact about the women in my life.
As a father of two teenage girls, your post has really angered me.
Covered end said, I've not been on here for a while.
So because you don't know anyone that has been sexually molested, you and they cannot possibly know how they would react. Trump must be innocent ? What a crock.
No one can say how they would react to being molested, until it happens to them.
Thousands of women and men are stunned into silence and don't then come forward for a whole variety of reasons.
How you think everyone will definitely shout & scream and and then go the police etc, is beyond my comprehension.
It is FACT that not everyone reports rape or sexual assault.
Savile molested women who said nothing and if you saw the Louis Theroux documentary you would know that.
They said nothing because they were astounded, couldn't believe it, didn't think they would be believed against someone "so powerful". God help the future of young women in particular, if juries have similar views to yourself.
How about Trump is elected President and within weeks he's arrested for sexual abuse ?
Your assumptions are ludicrous.
http://www.trump-clock.com/
To be honest GHF, this one has largely flown under my radar. I don't know many people who are huge Michael Moore fans, or who are massively rank-and-file Democrats and thus would be drawn to something like this. I think everyone is a little burnt out on MM. I'll ask around and see if I can find anyone who has seen it or has strong feelings about it.
How on Earth Did Trump get a gold star in Hollywood ?