I avoid this thread like the plague, makes my blood pressure skyrocket, and I don't have as much time as some to compose lengthy responses to opinions I consider flawed. I took a chance and checked it out this time because of recent events that could well change the outcome of the election now that it's become so close. The choice between “The Crude” and “The Crook” is coming down to the wire, and it's a brave person who would bet the family allowance on the outcome. I stopped participating in the this thread because my view was that of the minority, and I found that a civilized discussion was impossible, posters were so invested in their points of view that rather than discuss an opposing point of view they would ridicule and be insulting. Fair enough, if the opinions of a former South-East Londoner, who has now lived in the U.S. For 44 years have no value to others of a similar background, I am happy to let things play out and keep my opinions to myself.
What is not acceptable to me, and I would hope not acceptable to other posters on CL, is any post that singles out a group of people for insult, whether it be an ethnic group, a nationality or whatever else and calls them stupid. Aren't there always objections on the”Jokes” thread if there's a joke that singles out the “Irish” for instance? So having been here as long as I have, my family, my friends, and my work colleagues are all Americans. I will therefore press the abuse button any time I see a group of people insulted the way I did today, isn't that what the button is for?
I avoid this thread like the plague, makes my blood pressure skyrocket, and I don't have as much time as some to compose lengthy responses to opinions I consider flawed. I took a chance and checked it out this time because of recent events that could well change the outcome of the election now that it's become so close. The choice between “The Crude” and “The Crook” is coming down to the wire, and it's a brave person who would bet the family allowance on the outcome. I stopped participating in the this thread because my view was that of the minority, and I found that a civilized discussion was impossible, posters were so invested in their points of view that rather than discuss an opposing point of view they would ridicule and be insulting. Fair enough, if the opinions of a former South-East Londoner, who has now lived in the U.S. For 44 years have no value to others of a similar background, I am happy to let things play out and keep my opinions to myself.
What is not acceptable to me, and I would hope not acceptable to other posters on CL, is any post that singles out a group of people for insult, whether it be an ethnic group, a nationality or whatever else and calls them stupid. Aren't there always objections on the”Jokes” thread if there's a joke that singles out the “Irish” for instance? So having been here as long as I have, my family, my friends, and my work colleagues are all Americans. I will therefore press the abuse button any time I see a group of people insulted the way I did today, isn't that what the button is for?
Pretty much every US election, Britons overwhelmingly want the Democrat candidate to win, and there is hardly any dissenting voice. It is difficult enough for, say, a working class person in Kent and a working class person in Liverpool to understand why they vote for Tory or Labour respectively, so imagine the impossibility of any Briton to understand the zeitgeist of why Trump is doing so well, when we seem to believe that if a Trump-style politician tried to become Prime Minister here, he would barely get over the first hurdle. I won't pretend to understand why anyone would want to vote for Trump and I don't think I could be reasonably convinced, even though I am fully aware of all the issues that conservatives in America have with Hillary.
If you want a civilised discussion on the merits of Trump then you're in the wrong place; how on earth could a forum largely populated by South East Englishmen have any idea why Trump would be appealing to an American voter when the constant media stream here from all media sources is that Trump is, at best, hopelessly out of his depth and, at worst, the Antichrist?
You are right though, it is unfair to label every single person in a group as less intelligent just because you disagree with them politically.
Don't feel you have to justify why you are going to vote the way you do, I doubt anyone here could understand the reasons behind your vote in any meaningful way, including myself. Just as British voters told Obama to bog off over Brexit, Americans can rightly feel free to tell the Brits to do one over Trump.
I know exactly why Trump is appealing to a lot of Americans
There wasn't any doubt in my mind that you would.
Do you not though? I mean come on, there's a large section of America that's racist, xenophobic, and misogynistic. He has support amongst white nationalists and the Alt-Right, including Breitbart president and Trump Campaign CEO Steve Bannon.
There's a perfectly reasonable case to be made that that is not all Trump supporters, and that certain Libertarians find him appealing, as well as those sick of the status quo in Washington. But surely we're not so far apart that you can't see that there is a white nationalism in this country that Trump appeals to.
I avoid this thread like the plague, makes my blood pressure skyrocket, and I don't have as much time as some to compose lengthy responses to opinions I consider flawed. I took a chance and checked it out this time because of recent events that could well change the outcome of the election now that it's become so close. The choice between “The Crude” and “The Crook” is coming down to the wire, and it's a brave person who would bet the family allowance on the outcome. I stopped participating in the this thread because my view was that of the minority, and I found that a civilized discussion was impossible, posters were so invested in their points of view that rather than discuss an opposing point of view they would ridicule and be insulting. Fair enough, if the opinions of a former South-East Londoner, who has now lived in the U.S. For 44 years have no value to others of a similar background, I am happy to let things play out and keep my opinions to myself.
What is not acceptable to me, and I would hope not acceptable to other posters on CL, is any post that singles out a group of people for insult, whether it be an ethnic group, a nationality or whatever else and calls them stupid. Aren't there always objections on the”Jokes” thread if there's a joke that singles out the “Irish” for instance? So having been here as long as I have, my family, my friends, and my work colleagues are all Americans. I will therefore press the abuse button any time I see a group of people insulted the way I did today, isn't that what the button is for?
I intentionally put this second because it's more important. Very good post, very well said, my cap is off to you sir even if we don't agree on everything.
I know exactly why Trump is appealing to a lot of Americans
No doubt you do. For the rest of us lacking your clairvoyance we can only assume. If there is a large bloc of Americans voting for Trump for xenophobic or racist reasons, I imagine they would have voted against Obama in the last two elections for the same reasons. Yet Trump could, apparently, win more votes than either McCain or Romney. So have Americans become more racist, or are factors at play slightly more nunanced than that? Or both?
There are parallels with Brexit here. Had xenophobia not played any part in people's reasoning, Leave would never have won. But not all Leavers are racists. Is it fair to chastise those voting for Trump/Brexit for enabling that section of the electorate? Is that how democracy works?
I know exactly why Trump is appealing to a lot of Americans
No doubt you do. For the rest of us lacking your clairvoyance we can only assume. If there is a large bloc of Americans voting for Trump for xenophobic or racist reasons, I imagine they would have voted against Obama in the last two elections for the same reasons. Yet Trump could, apparently, win more votes than either McCain or Romney. So have Americans become more racist, or are factors at play slightly more nunanced than that? Or both?
There are parallels with Brexit here. Had xenophobia not played any part in people's reasoning, Leave would never have won. But not all Leavers are racists. Is it fair to chastise those voting for Trump/Brexit for enabling that section of the electorate? Is that how democracy works?
Jobs are still the number one concern for most voters in this election. The parallels are the blame of immagration/the poor for economic instability, rather than rich old white men. Not really a new argument, it is a narative that has suited a bunch of people and their mates to avoid paying a fair share/taking responsibility for a very long time. Now we are paying price as a society.
Wish I lived in a country with legal gambling. Would love to know what odds I could get on an accumulator of Clinton in New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada right now.
Wish I lived in a country with legal gambling. Would love to know what odds I could get on an accumulator of ClintonCurbs in New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada right now.
Wish I lived in a country with legal gambling. Would love to know what odds I could get on an accumulator of Clinton in New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada right now.
I think you'd get between 4/1 and 9/2 from rough calcs
Wish I lived in a country with legal gambling. Would love to know what odds I could get on an accumulator of Clinton in New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada right now.
So do I wish you lived in a country with legal gambling - we're itching to get in there!!
Wish I lived in a country with legal gambling. Would love to know what odds I could get on an accumulator of Clinton in New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada right now.
How much would you be prepared to bet? Transfer it into my account and I promise that I will put the bet on for you
@blackpool72 I certainly didn't flag your post, I'm just not that much of a busy body to flag anyone for that matter. But I reckon the fact you called 350 million people stupid might have something to with it. I mean this is Charlton life after all, there's types on here who are likely to call the advertising standards agency if an advert shows a woman hoovering.
I avoid this thread like the plague, makes my blood pressure skyrocket, and I don't have as much time as some to compose lengthy responses to opinions I consider flawed. I took a chance and checked it out this time because of recent events that could well change the outcome of the election now that it's become so close. The choice between “The Crude” and “The Crook” is coming down to the wire, and it's a brave person who would bet the family allowance on the outcome. I stopped participating in the this thread because my view was that of the minority, and I found that a civilized discussion was impossible, posters were so invested in their points of view that rather than discuss an opposing point of view they would ridicule and be insulting. Fair enough, if the opinions of a former South-East Londoner, who has now lived in the U.S. For 44 years have no value to others of a similar background, I am happy to let things play out and keep my opinions to myself.
What is not acceptable to me, and I would hope not acceptable to other posters on CL, is any post that singles out a group of people for insult, whether it be an ethnic group, a nationality or whatever else and calls them stupid. Aren't there always objections on the”Jokes” thread if there's a joke that singles out the “Irish” for instance? So having been here as long as I have, my family, my friends, and my work colleagues are all Americans. I will therefore press the abuse button any time I see a group of people insulted the way I did today, isn't that what the button is for?
Thats sad. But you are 100% correct.
The problem with a lot of the political discussions on here, is that those that are putting forward the merits of a non left wing scenario (even from a balanced neutral standpoint sometimes) will get mobbed by people on here who *know* they are right. It's like trying to convince Ned Flanders that god is a bit shit, but that person isn't necessarily as nice as good old Neddy :-(
A couple of the posters on here when a viewpoint they don't agree with comes up turn into complete arseholes, effectively belittling people for believing the *wrong* thing rather than discussing it. Oh, and refusing to accept any of your points, at all.
For me, it's the "I know better than you" attitude that had a lot to do with Brexit being successful, and if trump wins, that will have a lot to do with it too, there's probably more people that dislike being told they are wrong constantly and made to feel like idiots because of it, than there are racists and xenophobes.
It makes people a) less likely to admit who they will vote for when polled and b) more determined to go and vote on the day. Both increase turnout for the party portrayed as "the lessers" which for me sums Brexit up and *might* affect the USA (I'm no expert on American politics, unlike some of the people here who might have read a Guardian article or two, and can then tell you about how all your experiences of living there are completely wrong)
Then when the cause is lost, it's because of brainwashing and racism. Anything to avoid the horrors of democracy, but then some of them probably haven't ever won an argument other than in front of a computer screen, flanked on each side by a few others.
Don't let it get you down, I often have to talk to people outside of here to remind me I'm sane.
Comments
I stopped participating in the this thread because my view was that of the minority, and I found that a civilized discussion was impossible, posters were so invested in their points of view that rather than discuss an opposing point of view they would ridicule and be insulting. Fair enough, if the opinions of a former South-East Londoner, who has now lived in the U.S. For 44 years have no value to others of a similar background, I am happy to let things play out and keep my opinions to myself.
What is not acceptable to me, and I would hope not acceptable to other posters on CL, is any post that singles out a group of people for insult, whether it be an ethnic group, a nationality or whatever else and calls them stupid. Aren't there always objections on the”Jokes” thread if there's a joke that singles out the “Irish” for instance? So having been here as long as I have, my family, my friends, and my work colleagues are all Americans. I will therefore press the abuse button any time I see a group of people insulted the way I did today, isn't that what the button is for?
If you want a civilised discussion on the merits of Trump then you're in the wrong place; how on earth could a forum largely populated by South East Englishmen have any idea why Trump would be appealing to an American voter when the constant media stream here from all media sources is that Trump is, at best, hopelessly out of his depth and, at worst, the Antichrist?
You are right though, it is unfair to label every single person in a group as less intelligent just because you disagree with them politically.
Don't feel you have to justify why you are going to vote the way you do, I doubt anyone here could understand the reasons behind your vote in any meaningful way, including myself. Just as British voters told Obama to bog off over Brexit, Americans can rightly feel free to tell the Brits to do one over Trump.
There's a perfectly reasonable case to be made that that is not all Trump supporters, and that certain Libertarians find him appealing, as well as those sick of the status quo in Washington. But surely we're not so far apart that you can't see that there is a white nationalism in this country that Trump appeals to.
There are parallels with Brexit here. Had xenophobia not played any part in people's reasoning, Leave would never have won. But not all Leavers are racists. Is it fair to chastise those voting for Trump/Brexit for enabling that section of the electorate? Is that how democracy works?
@Todds_right_hook if you're not joking let me calculate what odds I could get and then I'll let you know.
Land of the free my arse.
Flag that.
Skip to 4:08.
The problem with a lot of the political discussions on here, is that those that are putting forward the merits of a non left wing scenario (even from a balanced neutral standpoint sometimes) will get mobbed by people on here who *know* they are right. It's like trying to convince Ned Flanders that god is a bit shit, but that person isn't necessarily as nice as good old Neddy :-(
A couple of the posters on here when a viewpoint they don't agree with comes up turn into complete arseholes, effectively belittling people for believing the *wrong* thing rather than discussing it. Oh, and refusing to accept any of your points, at all.
For me, it's the "I know better than you" attitude that had a lot to do with Brexit being successful, and if trump wins, that will have a lot to do with it too, there's probably more people that dislike being told they are wrong constantly and made to feel like idiots because of it, than there are racists and xenophobes.
It makes people a) less likely to admit who they will vote for when polled and b) more determined to go and vote on the day. Both increase turnout for the party portrayed as "the lessers" which for me sums Brexit up and *might* affect the USA (I'm no expert on American politics, unlike some of the people here who might have read a Guardian article or two, and can then tell you about how all your experiences of living there are completely wrong)
Then when the cause is lost, it's because of brainwashing and racism. Anything to avoid the horrors of democracy, but then some of them probably haven't ever won an argument other than in front of a computer screen, flanked on each side by a few others.
Don't let it get you down, I often have to talk to people outside of here to remind me I'm sane.