No one do the normal I am right you are wrong nonsense
People like me need to make an informed choice right now I am so heavily leaning towards the leave argument that I feel totally uniformed on the stay argument
So if we can play nicely
Put up the main reasons you wish to stay in or the deciding factors as to why you are out
Me
I am fed up with people making the decisions on how we spend some of our welfare and decide on border controls, but mainly why people who in countries that are fair less financially powerful or Influencial on the political spectrum having an input that makes life better for their population if they come here than if I went there
I want out and I want out asap
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Comments
I have a firmly held belief that multinational banks or manufacturers would decide, whenever they restructure, to base their operations within the larger market (history shows this to have happened before - the first Ford plant outside the US was in Cork, but has long since shut down).
The EU has influenced UK legislation, but I would argue in a largely positive way - the individual has greater rights, rights that would not have been willingly provided by UK governments (the push towards FoI actually happening was encouraged by the EU, and employees have benefitted from the Working Time Directive, to name just two).
Much of what people complain about regarding EU regulation, is not really the regulation itself, but the UK implementation.
The UK government pushed hard to have Southern and Eastern European countries brought in to the EU, to act as a counterweight to the Franco-German alliance, and has ever since complained about the outcomes.
Yes, the EU needs reform, but it also needs to be taken seriously, look at the calibre of candidates to become MEPs. The UK has not been effective within the EU, and has had relatively little influence, because it has a semi-detached relationship - compare this to Ireland, which has had a much more involved membership.
Apart from that, I'm utterly unconvinced that additional funds, if any, retained in the UK, will actually benefit the country, as opposed to the cronies of the governing elite, or be used as bribes to gain votes or to keep the oligarchs in town.
For those, admittedly a minority on this forum, who live in far flung regions of the UK, the likelihood is that development funding will decrease - UK governments, for all the "Northern Powerhouse" waffle, have little interest beyond the sunny south east.
But then, that's my view...
As an aside, because the information we get in the media is biased - on both sides - I work for a large multinational firm and get to meet people from different parts of the firm on a regular basis for my job and I've started asking people at the end of meetings what a Brexit would mean from their perspective and to a man the response isn't good. Those are the people I trust, not the Daily Mail and not the Guardian.
Will there be anywhere that issues this info in a non biased way
- Quite simply, I want us to govern ourselves.
- We cannot control immigration inside of the EU.
- Net we're spending 14+ billion on the EU, money that would be better spent at home.
- We can't leave TTIP whilst being members of the EU.
- I want to see an end of bureaucrats like Barnoness Cathy Ashton, a woman who has quite frankly done nothing to justify her position and salary.
- I want to see us rebuild our ties with former commonwealth countries.
- I don't want closer union and I certainly don't want an EU army, both possibilities.
- I don't want to see Turkey join the EU, a country that has provoked Russia and is sympathetic to ISIS.
For that reason I think it will end up being a vote on people's gut feel.
At this stage, I think we'll vote to stay mainly because of fear of the unknown and many will buy the sell that Cameron has negotiated a good deal.
Personally, I have no idea how I will vote, will see how the arguments unfold.
For me it is the broader philosophical global village type of stuff that motivates me. I would even be in favour of ever closer union as I don't have such a strong opinion of 'ours' or 'we' or us and them. I do recognise that this issue is not clear cut and there are valid arguments on all sides,
I will vote according to my personal view, which is the mood music the Conservatives are playing anyway.
It is interesting politically looking at politicians deciding between principle and practical personal advancement. I think the unpleasant Gove is acting on principle which I admire, and Boris will probably chase the main chance which he thinks will play best for him personally.
But, when we joined it was the EEC, a commercial trading block. I don't like the way this has morphed into the EU, without any real consultation or vote, where the European parliament and European legislators can override the decisions taken by our elected/appointed representatives. Our MEPs have very little influence and our sovereignty is being eroded. I don't want to just be a state in the United States of Europe.
There are probably many economic and humanitarian reasons to stay in but that, for me, is a strong argument for exit.
If the referendum vote is for Brexit, there will be at least 18 months of negotiations around what this means.
During this time, no British company will be able to borrow money on the bond markets, no investment will come into the UK, the value of the FTSE upon which the majority of pensions are based will go down by (my estimate) at least a third.
Only benefit I can see for being out is to reduce the number of unskilled EU migrants.
But the EEC/EU was conceived as more than a free trade area, even the 1970's Common Market incarnation. If all that the government sought access to was access to a trading bloc, the UK would have stayed in EFTA. And, whisper it quietly, MEPs and EU Commissioners are actually your elected/appointed representatives...
Part of the reason why UK MEPs have little influence is that a) the Tories have aligned themselves with a very right wing grouping in the Parliament and b) UKIP MEPs deliberately set out, along with their associated European "friends", to play silly buggers (while happily maximising their expenses claims - almost as bad as NI MLAs). To achieve things in the Parliament any one country's MEPs have to align themselves with other politicians - no single country has enough MEPs to push through its agenda. So, were it not for the fact that "Call Me Dave" withdrew them, Conservative MEPs would be in a bloc with Angela Merkel's CDU, but they're not, and so, have less influence.
Vote OUT and let the UK regain its influence in the world.
If you want to have free access to the EU market, the only other option is the EEA, where you'd have to pay almost as much in, with no say in the rule-making, for rules you have to accept.
As for regaining the influence, which period of history's influence do you want to regain?
I like history, but what the UK, and any other country, needs to do is to be confident in itself, in or out of the EU, and engage properly with its partners, whoever they are. But the UK's influence in the future cannot be what it was in the past (membership of the UN Security Council is largely an anachronism).
Vote out and watch the UK drift off into the North Atlantic. We would have less influence in the wider world not more or even regain any that we thought we might of had in the distant past. We are a small island nation, (not a superpower any more),reliant on trade with others. Make and keep relationships don't break them.
That said I like the idea of EU having a bit of a shake up from time to time and this threat to leave might concentrate a few minds around Europe. I would imagine the people of Western Europe share to a large extent our concerns as well.
Rather than looking to Europe to why things are not quite as I think they should be I look at the post war governments we've had and lay the blame with them. All of the couldn't look any further than the next election.
A no brainer.
But as NLA says, you have to vote for what is right for you.
I'm afraid I don't believe either side, nor generally trust their motivations.
For most of my adult life the EU has been an excuse on all sides of the political spectrum for poor decision-making by British leaders and bosses.
I don't like the way that the stay in side pretends that all is rosy in the EU and goes along with stuff like the TTIP (which will allow the likes of Richard Branson or US health care companies to sue the UK if they don't privatise the NHS). I don't like how the unions are generally pro-EU because they are too weak to fight for workers rights and it is only the more civilised approach of Europe that holds back British bosses.
And I'm really not convinced by the Brexit people who imagine we can just waltz into a new arrangement with the EU without effectively being part of EFTA (i.e. pay the same, accept the directives, but with no say at all).
So, some sort of place with unbiased (or at least honest about its biases) would be good to share if anyone knows one. Or they even exist.
On a personal level, I work in IT for a housing association so not affected by work, though my manager is from the EU and I don't know whether it would affect him. He's a massive improvement on previous managers, so it would piss me off mightily to have him replaced. I've not got enough cash to go abroad much (twice in last decade) so am not affected in the way some of the folk on here are.
My kids have issues with overcrowding and teacher shortages in schools, but TBH I see this more as a result of domestic politicians not planning for growth (particularly in London where the assumption until quite recently was that middle class people would move out as soon as their eldest was at secondary school age so there'd always be enough school places); or treating teachers so badly that they don't last very long. While this might be impacted by immigration, the underlying problem is entirely one of British political failings. I do not imagine that our political class will suddenly improve if we leave (or stay) in the EU.
Also don't forget, outside of the EU, if there are laws created, you get to throw out the government who enforce them.
Even if it means Farage getting a lot of money from something he hates.
The only argument that the in campaign use is that we will lose jobs etc. and financial issues. But all the European countries that are independent are still in the European trade bloc and are doing very well financially without being an EU member.
The underlying thought in my head is that all voters, pro and anti membership, should ponder the likelihood of unintended consequences, and work out how much of what they would not like that they'd be willing to accept should the result go their way...
My fear is regarding the Dynamo of the British Ecconomy - The City of London. Doesn't it generate something like £8 out of every £10 the country makes ?
Frankfurt is a financial centre also but at present compared to London it is small potatoes. I'm sure the Germans would love to see Frankfurt compete with London and could persuade their partners to do more business with Frankfurt and less with London. If this were to happen then I think every other argument surrounding a Brexit pales into insignificance.