The funny thing is I bet Corbyn has been advised that he should lay low and let the Tories rip each other apart. Unfortunately, what's happened is that Dave cocked up the negotiations, most of the Tory party stuck up two fingers to him and now Boris is making his power play.
The funny thing is I bet Corbyn has been advised that he should lay low and let the Tories rip each other apart. Unfortunately, what's happened is that Dave cocked up the negotiations, most of the Tory party stuck up two fingers to him and now Boris is making his power play.
I really dont know which way to go here. I can see for and against on both sides. Not keen on some of the crazy edicts coming out of Brussels, but equally dont believe Britain is a superpower any longer, and we could be hard pushed out of the EU, particularly if the EU impose import duties on stuff made here. I hope both camps put their arguments subjectively, then can make an informed choice.
The funny thing is I bet Corbyn has been advised that he should lay low and let the Tories rip each other apart. Unfortunately, what's happened is that Dave cocked up the negotiations, most of the Tory party stuck up two fingers to him and now Boris is making his power play.
Boris PM 2020, nailed on.
The Tories don't usually elect the assassin though do they. He who wield's the dagger....
This looks like a pretty naked power play and that is going to alienate a lot of his party.
My money is on Javid or May to slip by the big two and take over the leadership
But British people go to work in America/Australia all the time? If he's good enough, he'll get a work permit and be fine.
Wrong. It's not about being "good enough" in those countries. When I considered moving to Australia, having aleady started to develop a decent career in advertising (and with lots of agencies in Sydney looking for good people) I was told officially that Australia didn't want the likes of me. But if I was a carpenter or a professional cook, welcome to Oz.
You realise the beer is significantly better in the Czech Rep compared to Oz right ?
But British people go to work in America/Australia all the time? If he's good enough, he'll get a work permit and be fine.
Wrong. It's not about being "good enough" in those countries. When I considered moving to Australia, having aleady started to develop a decent career in advertising (and with lots of agencies in Sydney looking for good people) I was told officially that Australia didn't want the likes of me. But if I was a carpenter or a professional cook, welcome to Oz.
You realise the beer is significantly better in the Czech Rep compared to Oz right ?
Sure, so are the women, and I don't have to share my garden with a family of Eastern Brown snakes either.
The funny thing is I bet Corbyn has been advised that he should lay low and let the Tories rip each other apart. Unfortunately, what's happened is that Dave cocked up the negotiations, most of the Tory party stuck up two fingers to him and now Boris is making his power play.
I like to think of us, the UK as world leaders. If we vote out, I can almost guarantee that at least 3-4 other EU countries will follow within 18-24 months of us. They are watching the UK with great interest as we could provide them with the perfect get out clause.
If we stay in, we will be loathed by the rest of the EU for being 'different'. We are already held in such low regard, receiving special treatment will not gain us any respect. Other countries will go out of their way to make the UK's membership of the EU hellish. Why do we find ourselves in this position anyway? We shouldn't actually be at this point? We didn't vote to be where we are today.
I like to think of us, the UK as world leaders. If we vote out, I can almost guarantee that at least 3-4 other EU countries will follow within 18-24 months of us. They are watching the UK with great interest as we could provide them with the perfect get out clause.
If we stay in, we will be loathed by the rest of the EU for being 'different'. We are already held in such low regard, receiving special treatment will not gain us any respect. Other countries will go out of their way to make the UK's membership of the EU hellish. Why do we find ourselves in this position anyway? We shouldn't actually be at this point? We didn't vote to be where we are today.
"We are already held in such low regard" yet they gave us a special deal to make us "different" ? Completely contradictory.
I like to think of us, the UK as world leaders. If we vote out, I can almost guarantee that at least 3-4 other EU countries will follow within 18-24 months of us. They are watching the UK with great interest as we could provide them with the perfect get out clause.
I don't agree there are 3-4 other countries looking to exit anyway but they will be worried about contagion. Which is why the EU will be doing us no favours whatsoever if we vote out. It'll be the most drawn out, messy, painful divorce in history that will take far longer than a couple of years. That's not a reason in and of itself not to vote out but it is a unavoidable consequence.
Whilst we spend years unpicking ourselves from the EU, redrafting domestic legislation, negotiating fresh trade agreements, fighting off another push for Scottish independence and all the rest the EU will be a far more attractive proposition for foreign investment and boy would they be putting the boot in whilst we are packing up our stuff. Just as I'd want our government to do if the situations were reversed.
I like to think of us, the UK as world leaders. If we vote out, I can almost guarantee that at least 3-4 other EU countries will follow within 18-24 months of us. They are watching the UK with great interest as we could provide them with the perfect get out clause.
If we stay in, we will be loathed by the rest of the EU for being 'different'. We are already held in such low regard, receiving special treatment will not gain us any respect. Other countries will go out of their way to make the UK's membership of the EU hellish. Why do we find ourselves in this position anyway? We shouldn't actually be at this point? We didn't vote to be where we are today.
Leaders in what, exactly? Genuine question.
OK, I'll go first. The justice system, contemporary culture ( mainly music and the BBC). After that I struggle. And neither have been damaged in any way by membership of the EU (despite all this noise about the ECJ).
"Leader" means that, not just being quite good. Among the things we used to lead in: Automobiles, railways, ship-building, steel. Political influence on the world stage, clout of our armed forces, those two are more difficult to assess off the cuff. We were never leaders, but punched above our weight. Probably still do.
Which are the 3-4 countries which will follow us out, meanwhile?
Out The U.K. has suffered for over a hundred years coming to terms with the fact we are a small country with disproportionate influence. The angst of the UK when we started losing our colonies is not dissimilar to the angst about losing influence and power in the World by giving up EU membership.
We replaced colonies with the Commonwealth and we will replace the EU with a new relationship based on mutual benefit.
We have had peace in Europe because dictatorships in Germany, Italy and Spain were transformed into democracies not because they joined the EU.
Just heard.an "in" politician implying the EU was able to punish Russia for invading Crimea/Ukraine and proof of its value and why we should remain. True, but it was the ability to affect Russia with trading sanctions, not political sanctions. The EEU could have done the same if the EU didn't exist.
Basically the EU is undemocratic and has become an end in itself, that is the biggest negative for me.
Boris has just broken cover and will campaign for the Tory leadership UK to leave the EU!
Boris's Dad has just said on BBC Breakfast that he is fighting to stay in as a part of the Environmentalists for Europe campaign group. That, however well written his son's article in the Telegraph was, it left out completely so many important issues. So his daddy has seen straight through him then.
Out The U.K. has suffered for over a hundred years coming to terms with the fact we are a small country with disproportionate influence. The angst of the UK when we started losing our colonies is not dissimilar to the angst about losing influence and power in the World by giving up EU membership.
We replaced colonies with the Commonwealth and we will replace the EU with a new relationship based on mutual benefit.
We have had peace in Europe because dictatorships in Germany, Italy and Spain were transformed into democracies not because they joined the EU.
Just heard.an "in" politician implying the EU was able to punish Russia for invading Crimea/Ukraine and proof of its value and why we should remain. True, but it was the ability to affect Russia with trading sanctions, not political sanctions. The EEU could have done the same if the EU didn't exist.
Basically the EU is undemocratic and has become an end in itself, that is the biggest negative for me.
But surely the imposition of trading sanctions is, in effect a political sanction and, if there was no EU, I sincerely doubt that EEA/EFTA, without the political dimension of the EU, could have implemented sanctions.
Now, whether the sanctions are really working, I don't know....
One question from me. If the vote goes to leave, would at some time in the future would we (the English) require a visa to enter Europe i.e. France, Holland, Italy etc.? If the vote goes to leave, the Scots will probably vote for an independent Scotland and will be successful. Will we (the English) be required to purchase a visa to enter Scotland?
One question from me. If the vote goes to leave, would at some time in the future would we (the English) require a visa to enter Europe i.e. France, Holland, Italy etc.? If the vote goes to leave, the Scots will probably vote for an independent Scotland and will be successful. Will we (the English) be required to purchase a visa to enter Scotland?
It depends on to what extent the UK chose to leave the European project. It's possible that the UK could go to the same position as Norway (with completely free movement throughout the EU), Switzerland (which is part of Schengen, so fairly free), or another option, which may involve visas to visit France, Holland etc. It's unlikely to require visas to travel to Ireland. Apart from Ireland, I think it's likely that the EU would negotiate collectively, and any travel restrictions on Europeans going to the UK would be replicated for British citizens travelling to Europe. If, say, Romanians require visas to enter the UK, then it's likely British citizens would need visas to travel to any other EU state.
As Fiiish says, it would be great for the Leave side to state what relationship they are campaigning for, eg if it's a similar status to Norway (which seems to be Fiiish's preference). This would make it much easier for people to make an informed decision as they can see what it would mean and it also removes many of the 'unknowns' that are seen by some to be a risk.
Good reply I.A. It looks from your post that we could at some time in the future require a visa to enter Scotland.
I also intended to add that Norway are part of Schengen and as such are required to accept Rumanians etc. Which is the reason many on the leave side of the argument put forward to withdraw from Europe.
Good reply I.A. It looks from your post that we could at some time in the future require a visa to enter Scotland.
I also intended to add that Norway are part of Schengen and as such are required to accept Rumanians etc. Which is the reason many on the leave side of the argument put forward to withdraw from Europe.
Schengen is about passport-free travel. Romania is not in Schengen (yet).
The EEA (which Norway is in) involves visa-free travel for all members, as part of membership of the free movement of goods, services and people. So Norwegians can live in Portugal or Slovakia if they want, and Portuguese, Slovaks etc can move to Norway.
Norway is one possible model. There are others possible. It would genuinely be good if the Leave side proposed the model for what they would prefer, but I don't think they (politicians or the public) are united on that.
Good reply I.A. It looks from your post that we could at some time in the future require a visa to enter Scotland.
I also intended to add that Norway are part of Schengen and as such are required to accept Rumanians etc. Which is the reason many on the leave side of the argument put forward to withdraw from Europe.
Schengen is about passport-free travel. Romania is not in Schengen (yet).
The EEA (which Norway is in) involves visa-free travel for all members, as part of membership of the free movement of goods, services and people. So Norwegians can live in Portugal or Slovakia if they want, and Portuguese, Slovaks etc can move to Norway.
Norway is one possible model. There are others possible. It would genuinely be good if the Leave side proposed the model for what they would prefer, but I don't think they (politicians or the public) are united on that.
You seem to have a good understanding of European affairs I.A. Which side of the fence are you? In or out.
If the Leave side was definitely putting forward Norway as the desired model, I could be convinced
Do Norway have to pay more per capita than us to trade in Europe without any control on agreements that may affect them?
Sorry, I don't know and don't have time to check now, but it looks like Norway pays almost as much as they would if they were an EU member, according to their minister for EU affairs.
I believe but am not certain that the UK pays less than an identical country would pay in the EU, given the rebate.
I don't know how these two bits of information relate to per capita payments for Norway and the UK.
Boris has just broken cover and will campaign for the Tory leadership UK to leave the EU!
Boris's Dad has just said on BBC Breakfast that he is fighting to stay in as a part of the Environmentalists for Europe campaign group. That, however well written his son's article in the Telegraph was, it left out completely so many important issues. So his daddy has seen straight through him then.
At some point in the debate a Lifer will doubtless write that the Americans (Obama or Kerry) are "interfering" in our referendum by providing their opinions.
I would like to remind all Lifers that Mr B. Johnson, the Hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, is a US citizen.
So we have the preposterous situation where the Out campaign is dominated by an American, and an old git who lives in France (Lawson), yet up to 2m British citizens are denied a say in a referendum which hugely affects their lives because they have not registered to vote in the UK for 15 years and currently live abroad.
If the Leave side was definitely putting forward Norway as the desired model, I could be convinced
Do Norway have to pay more per capita than us to trade in Europe without any control on agreements that may affect them?
Sorry, I don't know and don't have time to check now, but it looks like Norway pays almost as much as they would if they were an EU member, according to their minister for EU affairs.
I believe but am not certain that the UK pays less than an identical country would pay in the EU, given the rebate.
I don't know how these two bits of information relate to per capita payments for Norway and the UK.
They (the Norwegians) have been quoted in the recent past complaining about their financial contribution without any input into European legislation. Some Norwegian ministers have advised us not to follow their model for this reason. Would be interesting to find out how much per capita the pay compared to us.
If the Leave side was definitely putting forward Norway as the desired model, I could be convinced
Do Norway have to pay more per capita than us to trade in Europe without any control on agreements that may affect them?
Sorry, I don't know and don't have time to check now, but it looks like Norway pays almost as much as they would if they were an EU member, according to their minister for EU affairs.
I believe but am not certain that the UK pays less than an identical country would pay in the EU, given the rebate.
I don't know how these two bits of information relate to per capita payments for Norway and the UK.
They (the Norwegians) have been quoted in the recent past complaining about their financial contribution without any input into European legislation. Some Norwegian ministers have advised us not to follow their model for this reason. Would be interesting to find out how much per capita the pay compared to us.
Article here from a former Norwegian foreign minister on the subject. A must read, in my opinion.
Comments
Tory leadershipUK to leave the EU!Boris PM 2020, nailed on.
I hope both camps put their arguments subjectively, then can make an informed choice.
This looks like a pretty naked power play and that is going to alienate a lot of his party.
My money is on Javid or May to slip by the big two and take over the leadership
If we stay in, we will be loathed by the rest of the EU for being 'different'. We are already held in such low regard, receiving special treatment will not gain us any respect. Other countries will go out of their way to make the UK's membership of the EU hellish. Why do we find ourselves in this position anyway? We shouldn't actually be at this point? We didn't vote to be where we are today.
Whilst we spend years unpicking ourselves from the EU, redrafting domestic legislation, negotiating fresh trade agreements, fighting off another push for Scottish independence and all the rest the EU will be a far more attractive proposition for foreign investment and boy would they be putting the boot in whilst we are packing up our stuff. Just as I'd want our government to do if the situations were reversed.
OK, I'll go first. The justice system, contemporary culture ( mainly music and the BBC). After that I struggle. And neither have been damaged in any way by membership of the EU (despite all this noise about the ECJ).
"Leader" means that, not just being quite good. Among the things we used to lead in: Automobiles, railways, ship-building, steel. Political influence on the world stage, clout of our armed forces, those two are more difficult to assess off the cuff. We were never leaders, but punched above our weight. Probably still do.
Which are the 3-4 countries which will follow us out, meanwhile?
The U.K. has suffered for over a hundred years coming to terms with the fact we are a small country with disproportionate influence. The angst of the UK when we started losing our colonies is not dissimilar to the angst about losing influence and power in the World by giving up EU membership.
We replaced colonies with the Commonwealth and we will replace the EU with a new relationship based on mutual benefit.
We have had peace in Europe because dictatorships in Germany, Italy and Spain were transformed into democracies not because they joined the EU.
Just heard.an "in" politician implying the EU was able to punish Russia for invading Crimea/Ukraine and proof of its value and why we should remain. True, but it was the ability to affect Russia with trading sanctions, not political sanctions. The EEU could have done the same if the EU didn't exist.
Basically the EU is undemocratic and has become an end in itself, that is the biggest negative for me.
Now, whether the sanctions are really working, I don't know....
If the vote goes to leave, would at some time in the future would we (the English) require a visa to enter Europe i.e. France, Holland, Italy etc.?
If the vote goes to leave, the Scots will probably vote for an independent Scotland and will be successful.
Will we (the English) be required to purchase a visa to enter Scotland?
As Fiiish says, it would be great for the Leave side to state what relationship they are campaigning for, eg if it's a similar status to Norway (which seems to be Fiiish's preference). This would make it much easier for people to make an informed decision as they can see what it would mean and it also removes many of the 'unknowns' that are seen by some to be a risk.
It looks from your post that we could at some time in the future require a visa to enter Scotland.
The EEA (which Norway is in) involves visa-free travel for all members, as part of membership of the free movement of goods, services and people. So Norwegians can live in Portugal or Slovakia if they want, and Portuguese, Slovaks etc can move to Norway.
Norway is one possible model. There are others possible. It would genuinely be good if the Leave side proposed the model for what they would prefer, but I don't think they (politicians or the public) are united on that.
Which side of the fence are you? In or out.
If the Leave side was definitely putting forward Norway as the desired model, I could be convinced
I believe but am not certain that the UK pays less than an identical country would pay in the EU, given the rebate.
I don't know how these two bits of information relate to per capita payments for Norway and the UK.
I would like to remind all Lifers that Mr B. Johnson, the Hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, is a US citizen.
So we have the preposterous situation where the Out campaign is dominated by an American, and an old git who lives in France (Lawson), yet up to 2m British citizens are denied a say in a referendum which hugely affects their lives because they have not registered to vote in the UK for 15 years and currently live abroad.
Some Norwegian ministers have advised us not to follow their model for this reason.
Would be interesting to find out how much per capita the pay compared to us.