"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis". Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum. He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!
Sorry Pete, but I just checked my emails and somebody on this thread reported on 9 Febthat he had met Karel Fraeye at a game with another Belgian. Both had their laptops and were working. This Lifer received Fraeye's email address.
I will leave it up to the Lifer whether he wishes to chip in himself, so I won't identify him, but his mails at the time are very clear.
You tease! Dish the dirt.
Well he is not on this thread, but I believe @Seth Plum is a second witness who met Fraeye at this time (early Feb)
Why should any manager have the final say (given average managerial tenure is about one third of the average contract length of new signings)?
What?!?! Because the manager manages players he bought. He lives and dies by the players he brings to the club.
The manager not having control of signings undermines his authority
The club's interests and the manager's interests are not aligned - the former is perpetual (in most cases) and the latter has an average career of just a few years.
Managers will always bang the table asking for signings with a near term impact rather than consider the longer term implications for the club.
The concept here is not flawed only the execution.
I don't agree with you. I agree that Harry Redknapp is the living breathing example of what can go wrong with the English system. So the continental system has a Head Coach and a Director of Football, which prevents that abuse of power. But we don't have the latter. No one therefore explains to the Network Coach the particularities of our club and our league. This 'system' bestows ridiculous power and responsibility on one man. And probably, it was as @Weegie Addick suggests, Fraeye.
I strongly suspect that it is not how it works in Watford's network.
As someone else said, it's the execution, not the model, that is flawed. We don't have a chief scout on our books, nor do we have a Director of Football. I've long said that these are, for me, up there with the most criminally negligent acts of the regime.
For me, Luzon is an excellent example of why a manager should never be solely in charge of signings. He was a strict 4-4-2 manager. As such, we signed forwards (Watt, Mak) who needed to play up front with someone else. We also almost exclusively have wingers who provide creativity, like Bulot and JBG did last year, while we still have no creativity from someone who can play centrally.
A good director of football would take the current manager, and their system and preferences into account, but also consider the balance of the squad, the ability to change tactics, injuries, players' personal strengths and weakness (including, very importantly, the ability to settle), etc. This information should come from the scouting team. The Director of Football will also consider the budgetary and financial structuring and implications of signings, advantages of signing one player versus another, as well as potential sell-on value and those kinds of concerns.
There is no manager in the British game, probably few if any managers in the top leagues of world football who are capable of doing the above in addition to coaching a team. DoF should not just be a stand-alone job, it should be a person supported by various people.
Again, this is all how it should be executed.
For what it's worth, I doubt that Fraeye was the "Network Scout" in charge of signings. He had a job managing a club outside the network when we scooped him up, and he was pretty adamant that he had little to do with scouting players for Charlton (in spite of what was said about him). I suspect there's a chief scout attached to STVV who we've never even heard of who makes these decisions.
Very good point well made. I read an excellent article with Les Reed about his role in how things are done at Southampton
Sean Dyche in the Sunday Times - " If you are going to scout foreign players, you need a system where you can look at every part of their profile, their tactical understanding, technical ability, background. The big clubs go through hundreds of players that don't work for them and everybody talks about the ones that do work. At a club like Burnley they all have to work". Dyche puts a huge stock in assessing players characters before he signs them. "Better the devil you know rather than the devil you don't".
"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis". Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum. He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!
Sorry Pete, but I just checked my emails and somebody on this thread reported on 9 Febthat he had met Karel Fraeye at a game with another Belgian. Both had their laptops and were working. This Lifer received Fraeye's email address.
I will leave it up to the Lifer whether he wishes to chip in himself, so I won't identify him, but his mails at the time are very clear.
Prague, thank you for your usual calm and polite challenge to my post. I have had to wait a few days to check my information and find time to reply, which is in essence to confirm that my original post was correct. I say in essence because re-reading my post it could read (possibly) that Karel was employed by RD in some capacity before the home game against Birmingham but he was not. So anyway, I confirm that Karel was indeed invited to look at all the network clubs and he did not visit Charlton until the Birmingham game on the 8th February 2014, when he was seen and spoke to some supporters. He had no laptop at the game. He did not work for RD until he signed a contract in early March 2014 which was much earlier than June when he expected it would be done. He had no hand in the sacking of Chris Powell or made any comment on him or the players. Recruitment for the regime was previously carried out by two guys in Belgium but then and up to the present, recruitment was carried out by just one man and he does not look at the players himself. This man was solely responsible for recruitment to Charlton up until now anyway. He cannot yet be named because of contract reasons although I cannot see what reason knowing him would now serve as we all know that the system is ridiculous, whoever controls the magic laptop…. As documented after he left Charlton with Riga, Karel went to VW Hamme but at the same time was responsible to recruit, organise and monitor Alcorcon. So he never recruited for Charlton but just co-advised on Bauer and Vetokele. Karel watched almost all the games on Charlton as he did all Standard or STVV and all the Alcorcon games, as these are all network clubs and he had to know who is who and was partly behind the move of Marko Dimitrovic to Alcorcon. Hopefully this information which I believe to be true may be of interest to some of us and will lay some of the wilder accusations to bed…..okay probably not!
< recruitment was carried out by just one man and he does not look at the players himself. This man was solely responsible for recruitment to Charlton up until now anyway. *Above from Desperate_Pete*
I am very interested on how this system works, can you elaborate?
Thanks for giving us Karel Fraeye's version of events.
Remember though his version isn't "correct" it is just his version and contradicts not only the previous versions he has given via you but the other evidence from fans.
Having been caught out on being at the Birmingham game in Feb he's now re-writing his story again.
Not naming the man with the laptop is laughable.
If they exist name them. Until them all the evidence other than from Karel points to that man being Fraeye. So easy to prove me wrong, just name Mr Laptop.
With reference to my encounter with Fraeye at the Birmingham game. I am unable to rummage around on this site to find what i wrote at the time, so maybe i will be repeating myself. Fraeye clearly told me then he was working across the network, and was clear and confident when listing the clubs. We had a fair old chat, which incidentally included him asking me what I thought the attendance was, and ironically included him dismissing the lower reaches of Belgium football as insignificant...maybe he meant in comparison to Charlton. In that conversation I mentioned how frustrating it was that richer clubs could snaffle our players virtually for nothing...I may be wrong, but I believe it was around the time Kasey Palmer left...anyway i said how wrong I thought it was and Karel agreed enthusiastically, and added (tellingly) we think it's wrong too, or words to that effect. We. I remember getting the impression that Karel, already well interwoven in the Duchatelet network, was signalling that this bright new shiny network would be intent on keeping our young players, as if it was policy he was already well briefed in. I was actually quite pleased to hear it. For two people we are supposed to think of as virtual strangers at the time, Katrien and Karel were pretty deep in conversation throughout, and certainly were when I finally left. My distinct impression after that Birmingham game was that karel was working for Roland and the network. if anybody can find what i wrote at the time, then it may be the same as this, but it was two years ago now, so I can't today vouch for every dot and comma.
At the end of the 2013/14 season, RD sacked a key figure involved in network recruitment. Logically he could have been the second recruitment guy that Desperate_Pete alludes to?
Can't remember the name (no doubt mentioned on CL at the time) - but the reason given at the time of his dismissal, was something like the lack of effectiveness of signings.
With reference to my encounter with Fraeye at the Birmingham game. I am unable to rummage around on this site to find what i wrote at the time, so maybe i will be repeating myself. Fraeye clearly told me then he was working across the network, and was clear and confident when listing the clubs. We had a fair old chat, which incidentally included him asking me what I thought the attendance was, and ironically included him dismissing the lower reaches of Belgium football as insignificant...maybe he meant in comparison to Charlton. In that conversation I mentioned how frustrating it was that richer clubs could snaffle our players virtually for nothing...I may be wrong, but I believe it was around the time Kasey Palmer left...anyway i said how wrong I thought it was and Karel agreed enthusiastically, and added (tellingly) we think it's wrong too, or words to that effect. We. I remember getting the impression that Karel, already well interwoven in the Duchatelet network, was signalling that this bright new shiny network would be intent on keeping our young players, as if it was policy he was already well briefed in. I was actually quite pleased to hear it. For two people we are supposed to think of as virtual strangers at the time, Katrien and Karel were pretty deep in conversation throughout, and certainly were when I finally left. My distinct impression after that Birmingham game was that karel was working for Roland and the network. if anybody can find what i wrote at the time, then it may be the same as this, but it was two years ago now, so I can't today vouch for every dot and comma.
Seth I can very well understand how you came to your views at the time. But, if you bear in mind that RD was considering or had decided to bring Karel into the network and had invited him to view all the network clubs (Charlton being the last as it happens) then it gives a different perspective on the visit. I do not know at what actual date that Karel decided he would join (subject to contract) but I can see no reason why he should not have used the ‘we’ at this time. Karel is nobodies fool and there is much common ground that Charlton and indeed all football fans can agree on. I do not why we should have thought that Karel and Katrien were virtual strangers at this time or not but if Karel was thinking of joining the network in some capacity (probably already mapped out by RD) then I suspect that they would have a lot to talk about. So yes, Karel may have given you the impression that he was working for the network but he was not and did not start working for RD till early March.
Thanks for giving us Karel Fraeye's version of events.
Remember though his version isn't "correct" it is just his version and contradicts not only the previous versions he has given via you but the other evidence from fans.
Having been caught out on being at the Birmingham game in Feb he's now re-writing his story again.
Not naming the man with the laptop is laughable.
If they exist name them. Until them all the evidence other than from Karel points to that man being Fraeye. So easy to prove me wrong, just name Mr Laptop.
I always like to inform you Henry and put you right when you are wrong. Using the word 'version' would seem to imply that whatever has been said or written is not necessarily correct. I am not aware of any inaccuracies that I have given regarding Karel's involvement with Charlton albeit posting information in a piecemeal fashion can lead to misunderstandings and if that has happened (and I am not aware that it has) then it is down to my clumsy writing..... So anyway Karel did not have a laptop at the Birmingham game and there is no evidence that Karel was 'one of the two' or the 'lone laptop man' either. I think that you will find that most supporters understand the reluctance of former employees to 'name names' for either contractual or future employment reasons but not you apparently. As much as I like proving you wrong Henry, not naming the man responsible for network recruitment (who had not been to the Valley) does not prove you correct!
Thanks for giving us Karel Fraeye's version of events.
Remember though his version isn't "correct" it is just his version and contradicts not only the previous versions he has given via you but the other evidence from fans.
Having been caught out on being at the Birmingham game in Feb he's now re-writing his story again.
Not naming the man with the laptop is laughable.
If they exist name them. Until them all the evidence other than from Karel points to that man being Fraeye. So easy to prove me wrong, just name Mr Laptop.
I always like to inform you Henry and put you right when you are wrong. Using the word 'version' would seem to imply that whatever has been said or written is not necessarily correct. I am not aware of any inaccuracies that I have given regarding Karel's involvement with Charlton albeit posting information in a piecemeal fashion can lead to misunderstandings and if that has happened (and I am not aware that it has) then it is down to my clumsy writing..... So anyway Karel did not have a laptop at the Birmingham game and there is no evidence that Karel was 'one of the two' or the 'lone laptop man' either. I think that you will find that most supporters understand the reluctance of former employees to 'name names' for either contractual or future employment reasons but not you apparently. As much as I like proving you wrong Henry, not naming the man responsible for network recruitment (who had not been to the Valley) does not prove you correct!
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
If accurate this quote does not make much sense, does it or rather subsequent events dictated otherwise? He was Riga's assistant from March 2014 having signed a contract in the first week. He had watched the network clubs before then as invited by RD..... In fact, as I posted, he then went to VW Hamme with a particular role regarding Alcorcon rather than the general analysis and scouting role for the network that he may have been expecting after helping Charlton stay up. This is not recruitment!
"Hey Karel, stop blaming me! I wasn't under contract, I was merely advising user RDuchâtelet69 (hey if the excuse works for you it's good enough for me)" - Mr.Laptop
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
Makes perfect sense and describes his role before and after his role at Charlton as expressed to fans at the time.
It's the stuff he's said afterwards to try and get out of taking any blame for the mess he helped create that is nonsense.
Any way time for me to move on from this now. You are going to believe what Karel says now. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable.
I'll believe what the weight of all the other evidence, including what Karel said at the time, points to ie that Karel was a key player in the analysis and scouting network of the network and had a significant influence on the recruitment of players for Charlton from near the start of the Roland era
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
Makes perfect sense and describes his role before and after his role at Charlton as expressed to fans at the time.
It's the stuff he's said afterwards to try and get out of taking any blame for the mess he helped create that is nonsense.
Any way time for me to move on from this now. You are going to believe what Karel says now. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable.
I'll believe what the weight of all the other evidence, including what Karel said at the time, points to ie that Karel was a key player in the analysis and scouting network of the network and had a significant influence on the recruitment of players for Charlton from near the start of the Roland era
Weight of evidence Henry...... Please don't give up the day job and become a Judge eh! 'Mess that he helped create' okay I am glad that you have convinced your self with all your supposition that you are right and are 'moving on'. Now I wait for your announcement that you will not renew your season ticket or will you convince yourself that you should?
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
Makes perfect sense and describes his role before and after his role at Charlton as expressed to fans at the time.
It's the stuff he's said afterwards to try and get out of taking any blame for the mess he helped create that is nonsense.
Any way time for me to move on from this now. You are going to believe what Karel says now. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable.
I'll believe what the weight of all the other evidence, including what Karel said at the time, points to ie that Karel was a key player in the analysis and scouting network of the network and had a significant influence on the recruitment of players for Charlton from near the start of the Roland era
Weight of evidence Henry...... Please don't give up the day job and become a Judge eh! 'Mess that he helped create' okay I am glad that you have convinced your self with all your supposition that you are right and are 'moving on'. Now I wait for your announcement that you will not renew your season ticket or will you convince yourself that you should?
"I will also continue to make analysis and scouting reports for the network, just as for the past half year. I will have a co-ordinating role for his network"
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
It's Karel fecking Fraeye! Surely we have other things to argue about!
Can't we just forget him!
Abso-blummin-lutley. His appointment is a stain on our past. Just like the two people shagging on the centre circle and selling Yann....they've made so many terrible and unforgivable mistakes. What a shower. Sell up and go.
"All the scouting and decisions will still come from whoever replaced Fraeye in his role "co-ordinating" the scouting and analysis". Sorry Henry, I let a lot go but you keep on recycling your interpretation of what KF said to you or someone and spinning it ad finitum. He had a role in the regime but he did not scout players for Charlton or decide who should be bought. He has a little more input with the Spanish club as I understand In fact KD did not start working for RD until early March 2014, before that he was not working for him. He was asked by RD to visit all of his clubs which he did (to Ujpest, to Madrid/Alcorcon and so to the Charlton-Birmingham game) to get an idea of the network. I repeat that player recruitment was down to two guys in Belgium who relied heavily on laptop data…. So there is no change at all or perhaps never will be!
He assessed the players in the network?
That's fine then! It's not like he claimed our weakest areas were Right Back (with a fit Solly at the time) and Goalkeeper was it? Can't have been the one to have assessed Kermogant as too old and passed it either, right?
Now to be entirely fair to Fraeye himself, this was a month prior according to your dates, albeit not long before Prague reports he was seen at The Valley. So this could well be the work of the anonymous Belgian he worked with.
However it does demonstrate just how poor the assessment of players was, and Karel's involvement of subsequent assessments as part of the same setup cannot be denied.
The man was a walking liability and not fit to coach in the UK, that he was appointed - and done so very rapidly whilst being falsely labelled as interim - is a damming indictment of just how incompetent our current regime is.
The bottom line is that Fraeye was not qualified enough to be doing whatever he was for Duchatelet, Belgian division three my a***.
Why Desperate_Pete continues to support this guy is beyond me. His appointment was the biggest insult to Charlton supporters in the history of this club.
Yeah, but he moved Solly inside to allow THD to be sent off. He also sent notes on with substitutes for Jacko to read. It's all about skill sets I'm told. Mastermind.
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I have had to wait a few days to check my information and find time to reply, which is in essence to confirm that my original post was correct. I say in essence because re-reading my post it could read (possibly) that Karel was employed by RD in some capacity before the home game against Birmingham but he was not.
So anyway, I confirm that Karel was indeed invited to look at all the network clubs and he did not visit Charlton until the Birmingham game on the 8th February 2014, when he was seen and spoke to some supporters. He had no laptop at the game. He did not work for RD until he signed a contract in early March 2014 which was much earlier than June when he expected it would be done. He had no hand in the sacking of Chris Powell or made any comment on him or the players. Recruitment for the regime was previously carried out by two guys in Belgium but then and up to the present, recruitment was carried out by just one man and he does not look at the players himself. This man was solely responsible for recruitment to Charlton up until now anyway. He cannot yet be named because of contract reasons although I cannot see what reason knowing him would now serve as we all know that the system is ridiculous, whoever controls the magic laptop….
As documented after he left Charlton with Riga, Karel went to VW Hamme but at the same time was responsible to recruit, organise and monitor Alcorcon.
So he never recruited for Charlton but just co-advised on Bauer and Vetokele. Karel watched almost all the games on Charlton as he did all Standard or STVV and all the Alcorcon games, as these are all network clubs and he had to know who is who and was partly behind the move of Marko Dimitrovic to Alcorcon.
Hopefully this information which I believe to be true may be of interest to some of us and will lay some of the wilder accusations to bed…..okay probably not!
< recruitment was carried out by just one man and he does not look at the players himself. This man was solely responsible for recruitment to Charlton up until now anyway.
*Above from Desperate_Pete*
I am very interested on how this system works, can you elaborate?
Remember though his version isn't "correct" it is just his version and contradicts not only the previous versions he has given via you but the other evidence from fans.
Having been caught out on being at the Birmingham game in Feb he's now re-writing his story again.
Not naming the man with the laptop is laughable.
If they exist name them. Until them all the evidence other than from Karel points to that man being Fraeye. So easy to prove me wrong, just name Mr Laptop.
I am unable to rummage around on this site to find what i wrote at the time, so maybe i will be repeating myself.
Fraeye clearly told me then he was working across the network, and was clear and confident when listing the clubs. We had a fair old chat, which incidentally included him asking me what I thought the attendance was, and ironically included him dismissing the lower reaches of Belgium football as insignificant...maybe he meant in comparison to Charlton.
In that conversation I mentioned how frustrating it was that richer clubs could snaffle our players virtually for nothing...I may be wrong, but I believe it was around the time Kasey Palmer left...anyway i said how wrong I thought it was and Karel agreed enthusiastically, and added (tellingly) we think it's wrong too, or words to that effect. We.
I remember getting the impression that Karel, already well interwoven in the Duchatelet network, was signalling that this bright new shiny network would be intent on keeping our young players, as if it was policy he was already well briefed in. I was actually quite pleased to hear it.
For two people we are supposed to think of as virtual strangers at the time, Katrien and Karel were pretty deep in conversation throughout, and certainly were when I finally left.
My distinct impression after that Birmingham game was that karel was working for Roland and the network. if anybody can find what i wrote at the time, then it may be the same as this, but it was two years ago now, so I can't today vouch for every dot and comma.
Logically he could have been the second recruitment guy that Desperate_Pete alludes to?
Can't remember the name (no doubt mentioned on CL at the time) - but the reason given at the time of his dismissal, was something like the lack of effectiveness of signings.
Cosmic.
Karel is nobodies fool and there is much common ground that Charlton and indeed all football fans can agree on. I do not why we should have thought that Karel and Katrien were virtual strangers at this time or not but if Karel was thinking of joining the network in some capacity (probably already mapped out by RD) then I suspect that they would have a lot to talk about.
So yes, Karel may have given you the impression that he was working for the network but he was not and did not start working for RD till early March.
So anyway Karel did not have a laptop at the Birmingham game and there is no evidence that Karel was 'one of the two' or the 'lone laptop man' either.
I think that you will find that most supporters understand the reluctance of former employees to 'name names' for either contractual or future employment reasons but not you apparently. As much as I like proving you wrong Henry, not naming the man responsible for network recruitment (who had not been to the Valley) does not prove you correct!
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
This is not recruitment!
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
Makes perfect sense and describes his role before and after his role at Charlton as expressed to fans at the time.
It's the stuff he's said afterwards to try and get out of taking any blame for the mess he helped create that is nonsense.
Any way time for me to move on from this now. You are going to believe what Karel says now. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable.
I'll believe what the weight of all the other evidence, including what Karel said at the time, points to ie that Karel was a key player in the analysis and scouting network of the network and had a significant influence on the recruitment of players for Charlton from near the start of the Roland era
'Mess that he helped create' okay I am glad that you have convinced your self with all your supposition that you are right and are 'moving on'.
Now I wait for your announcement that you will not renew your season ticket or will you convince yourself that you should?
Karel Fraeye after leaving his assistant head coach role at Charlton in the summer of 2014
I've got one about "the bell is ringing for me" but that was later.
Can't we just forget him!
Sell up and go.
That's fine then! It's not like he claimed our weakest areas were Right Back (with a fit Solly at the time) and Goalkeeper was it? Can't have been the one to have assessed Kermogant as too old and passed it either, right?
Now to be entirely fair to Fraeye himself, this was a month prior according to your dates, albeit not long before Prague reports he was seen at The Valley. So this could well be the work of the anonymous Belgian he worked with.
However it does demonstrate just how poor the assessment of players was, and Karel's involvement of subsequent assessments as part of the same setup cannot be denied.
The man was a walking liability and not fit to coach in the UK, that he was appointed - and done so very rapidly whilst being falsely labelled as interim - is a damming indictment of just how incompetent our current regime is.
Why Desperate_Pete continues to support this guy is beyond me. His appointment was the biggest insult to Charlton supporters in the history of this club.
He also sent notes on with substitutes for Jacko to read.
It's all about skill sets I'm told.
Mastermind.