On the ratings, have heard journos say many times that for match ratings they usually just throw numbers down. Those ratings are a bit silly, but they mean nothing.
Didn't we spend all last year saying Rooney is a striker and that is why he hasn't been at his best for the past couple of years.
Now everyone is saying he is better as a midfielder...
I personally think he is better left back in England whilst the worthy squad head to France.
Completely disagree.
The emergence of Kane and Vardy has rightly pushed Rooney out of the number 9 role. No arguments there. But as a midfielder for Man Utd he has been excellent. Did you see his assist for Mata's goal.
Clearly Rooney is no longer a centre forward, that is clear as day.
However I like the look of him in this midfield role, as has been stated above he has good technique, lovely range of passing, physicality and can obviously score a goal or two.
A midfield four of Rooney, Dier, Ali and Wilshere/Lallana looks good to me.
When was the last time Rooney played well in an international tournament? I would say his very first one and none since.
In fact anyone who saw his face in the tunnel at the last game of his last tournament would have seen why. He was absolutely bricking it. White as a ghost, tense as a man awaiting a death sentence.
I would be far happier if the last generation of England chokers were put out to pasture and let this new generation have a free crack.
Rooney's assist for Mata's goal was lovely. And his ability to play the Steven Gerrard Hollywood Pass(TM) is undeniable, but how positionally disciplined is he, in midfield, or anywhere really? He goes charging around, and gets sucked out of position. Happened a fair amount against Palace.
I think he plays behind the striker(s) or from the wing. He would have more tactical flexibility and the ability to roam.
I remember going to the first game of Capello's regime and the build-up beforehand being about how Rooney couldn't play up front on his own because he wasn't disciplined enough. He of course went on to play as a no. 9 successfully for many years, and when he did roam around and make a great challenge on the edge of his own area he was lauded (and when he was drastically out of position, nothing). Rafa Benitez realized long before everyone else that Steven Gerrard could not be trusted in a midfield two because he was too tactically naive and ill-disciplined. I feel like that realization about Rooney is about to be realized (and I'd note that Gerrard and Rooney always struggled to fit into an England side together).
I would still take him, he is easily one of England's better players on form. In the last 20-30 minutes of a game when players are tiring and the game is getting stretched, he can be a great impact sub. But England are now too good in other positions to have an exception for one player, one who doesn't stick to their position or what they're told.
Rooney won't be England's big man, the nation does not expect... I reckon the pressure will be off him to win games on his own and he'll surprise a few people. He's not coming back from an injury for starters.
He's been really good since coming back from injury. Still wouldn't make my starting midfield over Dier, Drinkwater and Alli but easily gets into the squad based on ability.
Didn't we spend all last year saying Rooney is a striker and that is why he hasn't been at his best for the past couple of years.
Now everyone is saying he is better as a midfielder...
I personally think he is better left back in England whilst the worthy squad head to France.
Completely disagree.
The emergence of Kane and Vardy has rightly pushed Rooney out of the number 9 role. No arguments there. But as a midfielder for Man Utd he has been excellent. Did you see his assist for Mata's goal.
He is technically the best player we have.
It was definitely a topic last season that Rooney has to play up front. Now the argument has changed to midfield.
In my opinion, the biggest issue with Rooney playing up front was that he would drop too deep to get on the ball, leaving us without a focal point (as most current popular systems contain one central striker 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 etc)
Now we have Kane who is ideal for the lone striker role, we can afford the luxury of Rooney playing in a deeper role.
Much happier going into a tournament knowing Rooney won't be starting up front.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
This. Not so much the full backs, but at centre half. We've gone from having Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Carragher and King to Stones, Cahill and Smalling. Let's hope Joe Gomez can push on after his injury.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
This. Not so much the full backs, but at centre half. We've gone from having Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Carragher and King to Stones, Cahill and Smalling. Let's hope Joe Gomez can push on after his injury.
I mention the full backs because at least we have other options to try out... Whereas it looks like we are stuck with Cahill and Smalling...god help us.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
To be fair both Walker and Rose played for Spurs who had the joint best defensive record in the League and were well ahead of everyone until they had their nervous breakdown with 4 or 5 games to go.
It's not the best defence in the world, but is it really that inferior to back fours that have gone deep into international tournaments before? Greece being a very obvious example.
All the players in the defence have the attributes to do, at the very least, a steady job at the Euro's, they just need properly organising and to play with discipline.
Where Roy has to make the call is, is he playing 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond. If its the diamond we can play Vardy and Kane, but the full backs have to be attacking and it further exposes our already weakest area, i.e. defence.
Play 4-2-3-1 and you have to rely less on your full backs to offer attacking width and you can also have two holding mids (I'd go with Dier and Drinkwater, but Roy will pick Wilshire) further screening the back 4 and leave your front 4 to focus on the attacking. I don't think you can fit Vardy and Kane into that formation though and we lack players who are truly comfortable out wide - there's probably only, the often ineffectual, Sterling, now Wellbeck is out, unless you take a punt on a Townsend or Rashford (who, to be fair, is certainly in form). More likely Rooney will get shunted out there but I don't think he ever looks good out wide, especially now he rather lacks pace.
So do we go diamond to maximise our strength in attack, or do we compromise our attack to protect our weak defence?
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
To be fair both Walker and Rose played for Spurs who had the joint best defensive record in the League and were well ahead of everyone until they had their nervous breakdown with 4 or 5 games to go.
It's not the best defence in the world, but is it really that inferior to back fours that have gone deep into international tournaments before? Greece being a very obvious example.
All the players in the defence have the attributes to do, at the very least, a steady job at the Euro's, they just need properly organising and to play with discipline.
Where Roy has to make the call is, is he playing 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond. If its the diamond we can play Vardy and Kane, but the full backs have to be attacking and it further exposes our already weakest area, i.e. defence.
Play 4-2-3-1 and you can have you rely less on your full backs to offer attacking width and you can also have two holding mids (I'd go with Dier and Drinkwater, but Roy will pick Wilshire) further screening the back 4 and leave your front 4 to focus on the attacking. I don't think you can fit Vardy and Kane into that formation though and we lack players who are truly comfortable out wide - there's probably only, the often ineffectual, Sterling, now Wellbeck is out, unless you take a punt of a Townsend or Rashford (who, to be fair, is certainly in form). More likely Rooney will get shunted out there but I don't think he ever looks good out wide, especially now he rather lacks pace.
So do we go diamond to maximise our strength in attack, or do we compromise our attack to protect our weak defence?
We will do our usual. Go 1-0 up and invite pressure, concede, go looking for a winner and lose 2-1
Didn't we spend all last year saying Rooney is a striker and that is why he hasn't been at his best for the past couple of years.
Now everyone is saying he is better as a midfielder...
I personally think he is better left back in England whilst the worthy squad head to France.
Completely disagree.
The emergence of Kane and Vardy has rightly pushed Rooney out of the number 9 role. No arguments there. But as a midfielder for Man Utd he has been excellent. Did you see his assist for Mata's goal.
He is technically the best player we have.
It was definitely a topic last season that Rooney has to play up front. Now the argument has changed to midfield.
Yes because this season has seen better strikers than Rooney emerge. I don't think the same could be said last season. (Kane did have a good season but this season has showed he wasn't a one season pony).
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
I feel the exact opposite about our full back options, Rose slightly better defender then Bertrand and Walker a much better defender then Clyne, my only worry about Walker is him losing his head & getting silly red for kicking out at an opponent.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
I feel the exact opposite about our full back options, Rose slightly better defender then Bertrand and Walker a much better defender then Clyne, my only worry about Walker is him losing his head & getting silly red for kicking out at an opponent.
Have to disagree, bertrands shape and overall defending is so much better then roses, he is much more defensive minded and has even been filling in at CB for saints. Rose relies on his pace to get him out of trouble as does Walker, reminds me a bit of Glenn Johnson, he always seems to be running backwards towards goal but as he is so quick he can get away with it.
They have both had good seasons but have been playing next to the best centre back in the league in Alderwerield and Vertongen is also quality. Rose has come on lot this season and it is about 60/40 in favour of him to start over Bertrand however Clyne over Walker is an absolute no brainer for me.
I am perfectly satisfied we will be a good attacking threat whether Roy opts to go with rooney, wilshere, ali, dier, kane or vardy or all of them together. The only thing that concerns me and it is a massive concern is our defense. We looked very shaky at the back and I want to see bertrand and clyne both play at full back as I think you can make a pretty strong argument that both of those are better then rose and walker defensively. Thank god we have Joe Hart as our last line of defense.
I feel the exact opposite about our full back options, Rose slightly better defender then Bertrand and Walker a much better defender then Clyne, my only worry about Walker is him losing his head & getting silly red for kicking out at an opponent.
Have to disagree, bertrands shape and overall defending is so much better then roses, he is much more defensive minded and has even been filling in at CB for saints. Rose relies on his pace to get him out of trouble as does Walker, reminds me a bit of Glenn Johnson, he always seems to be running backwards towards goal but as he is so quick he can get away with it.
They have both had good seasons but have been playing next to the best centre back in the league in Alderwerield and Vertongen is also quality. Rose has come on lot this season and it is about 60/40 in favour of him to start over Bertrand however Clyne over Walker is an absolute no brainer for me.
I will concede that Rose or Bertrand is a close call but Clyne would not get anywhere near the squad for me if we had any other serious options at RB, not a good enough defender for my liking, Walker might rely on pace but he still gets where he is needed much more then Clyne ever is from the games I have seen this season.
I think Walker is a very mediocre defender. See his clearance in the 90th minute straight into the middle of the pitch. Also think he should have been across to cover for the goal far better and quicker. Clyne is a solid defender.
I think Rose is a better defender, but he came through as an attacking midfielder/winger, and as such, I expect him to get caught out of position at least once or twice a match. As someone else said, Bertrand's shape and positioning are far superior.
A big reason why Spurs were so good defensively is because they pressed high up the pitch and teams struggled to play out. Their 4-1 over Man City was an excellent example. They struggled when they sat deep in the first half, but as soon as they could get at the City defenders mistakes were made all over the place. In that style, the fullbacks are usually tasked with getting very tight to their winger (as opposed to more zonal marking when sitting deeper) and to try to intercept passes into them or close them down quickly. In those situations, Walker and Rose's pace are a great attribute. Those attributes are less helpful when defending deeper.
England will play a pressing game not dissimilar to Spurs', but in a tournament with games every three days it's hard to maintain that intensity. Furthermore, at international level, teams tend to be better at playing it out of the back than at Premier league (though that is notably not the case with Russia, with the C+P twins at the back).
I think the defense will be okay, Roy has time to get them working as a unit and so they will be be to perform okay. Not great but good enough providing we defend as a team and also press high up the pitch.
As for the full backs it depends on which system we play. It's looking like a 433 or 442 diamond. Neither of which really has any width so you rely on the full backs to provide the width. So I'd favour Walker and Rose
On the Rooney in CM debate I agree he has done well playing as a deep lying playmaker for United. But that is a bit of a luxury position we can't afford. We saw against Turkey we had Dier holding. Wilshere alongside and Ali playing the more attacking number 10 role. And we lacked discipline in CM against a better team that midfield will be over run. You need someone who can go box to box alongside Dier, in my view is have Drinky. He can help shield the back four, can drop in when the full backs get forward (which is so important in this system) . He is defensively sound buy also has a good range of passing, will run all day and has an understanding with Vary like that of Ali/Kane. I wouldn't mind Henderson in this role either, and could see Woy playing Milner there.
What's this got to do with Rooney? I'm getting there. Wilshere wasn't disciplined enough to play that Role against Turkey, for one second let's imagine it. We play Rooney in that role alongside Dier, against one of the top teams. (Or even just a decent hard working team). Rooney like a free role he drifts around searching for the ball and he can get away with this for Manure as the rest of their midfield does the work and the teams they are up against aren't quite France/Germany. But with Ali playing behind the strikers and Rooney having that role the midfield will be Dier vs 4/5 we will implode without a doubt. On the ball we would be fine but off the ball there is no way Rooney is disciplined enough or has the legs to play that role as well as Hendo or Drinky. And can you see him dropping in when a full back bombs forward? I can't?
The only role I want him playing is the number 10 role but he is behind Ali and Barkley for that.
But we all know Woy will change the system to fit him in somewhere or play him out wide in the 433 where again we have better players.
Would have him in the squad, can play in a few positions and a very good player. But doesn't deserve a starting berth if you ask me.
Didn't we spend all last year saying Rooney is a striker and that is why he hasn't been at his best for the past couple of years.
Now everyone is saying he is better as a midfielder...
I personally think he is better left back in England whilst the worthy squad head to France.
Completely disagree.
The emergence of Kane and Vardy has rightly pushed Rooney out of the number 9 role. No arguments there. But as a midfielder for Man Utd he has been excellent. Did you see his assist for Mata's goal.
He is technically the best player we have.
It was definitely a topic last season that Rooney has to play up front. Now the argument has changed to midfield.
Yes because this season has seen better strikers than Rooney emerge. I don't think the same could be said last season. (Kane did have a good season but this season has showed he wasn't a one season pony).
I agree with what you're saying.
But I was just making the point that people are always making excuses for him. It was at Man Utd that people were saying he is a striker, we need to be playing him up front and all the pundits and public were agreeing. Go forward a year and it is the complete opposite argument. Everyone is saying he needs to be in midfield whether we are talking England or Utd. I just can't understand why nobody else has picked up on the fact that everyone is contradicting what they were saying last year.
Agree with most of your points except that Rooney is not behind Barkely for the number 10 role. Barkley has had an average at best season.
Possibly not but I think Barkley is better in that role than Wayne
Disagree. Rooney is a natural no. 10 and proven at international level. Barkely not so
I agree with you, I have issues with Barkley. But putting that to one side, I feel like every year we're describing Wayne Rooney as a "Natural ___." When he plays as a #10, it's "not his best position, he's better as a #9." When he's a #9 it's inverted. Now, after a handful of games, it seems to be that he's better in midfield.
Sorry, should take this moment to clarify that I'm not talking about you, it seems to be punditry in general. It seems to me the problem really is that he's not disciplined or tactically intelligent enough to have a "natural position," and as such always looks out of position. I think the #10 role is one where you can afford individual freedom, and thus he lands there by default.
Comments
On the ratings, have heard journos say many times that for match ratings they usually just throw numbers down. Those ratings are a bit silly, but they mean nothing.
Now everyone is saying he is better as a midfielder...
I personally think he is better left back in England whilst the worthy squad head to France.
The emergence of Kane and Vardy has rightly pushed Rooney out of the number 9 role. No arguments there. But as a midfielder for Man Utd he has been excellent. Did you see his assist for Mata's goal.
He is technically the best player we have.
However I like the look of him in this midfield role, as has been stated above he has good technique, lovely range of passing, physicality and can obviously score a goal or two.
A midfield four of Rooney, Dier, Ali and Wilshere/Lallana looks good to me.
In fact anyone who saw his face in the tunnel at the last game of his last tournament would have seen why. He was absolutely bricking it. White as a ghost, tense as a man awaiting a death sentence.
I would be far happier if the last generation of England chokers were put out to pasture and let this new generation have a free crack.
I think he plays behind the striker(s) or from the wing. He would have more tactical flexibility and the ability to roam.
I remember going to the first game of Capello's regime and the build-up beforehand being about how Rooney couldn't play up front on his own because he wasn't disciplined enough. He of course went on to play as a no. 9 successfully for many years, and when he did roam around and make a great challenge on the edge of his own area he was lauded (and when he was drastically out of position, nothing). Rafa Benitez realized long before everyone else that Steven Gerrard could not be trusted in a midfield two because he was too tactically naive and ill-disciplined. I feel like that realization about Rooney is about to be realized (and I'd note that Gerrard and Rooney always struggled to fit into an England side together).
I would still take him, he is easily one of England's better players on form. In the last 20-30 minutes of a game when players are tiring and the game is getting stretched, he can be a great impact sub. But England are now too good in other positions to have an exception for one player, one who doesn't stick to their position or what they're told.
Now we have Kane who is ideal for the lone striker role, we can afford the luxury of Rooney playing in a deeper role.
Much happier going into a tournament knowing Rooney won't be starting up front.
It's not the best defence in the world, but is it really that inferior to back fours that have gone deep into international tournaments before? Greece being a very obvious example.
All the players in the defence have the attributes to do, at the very least, a steady job at the Euro's, they just need properly organising and to play with discipline.
Where Roy has to make the call is, is he playing 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond. If its the diamond we can play Vardy and Kane, but the full backs have to be attacking and it further exposes our already weakest area, i.e. defence.
Play 4-2-3-1 and you have to rely less on your full backs to offer attacking width and you can also have two holding mids (I'd go with Dier and Drinkwater, but Roy will pick Wilshire) further screening the back 4 and leave your front 4 to focus on the attacking. I don't think you can fit Vardy and Kane into that formation though and we lack players who are truly comfortable out wide - there's probably only, the often ineffectual, Sterling, now Wellbeck is out, unless you take a punt on a Townsend or Rashford (who, to be fair, is certainly in form). More likely Rooney will get shunted out there but I don't think he ever looks good out wide, especially now he rather lacks pace.
So do we go diamond to maximise our strength in attack, or do we compromise our attack to protect our weak defence?
They have both had good seasons but have been playing next to the best centre back in the league in Alderwerield and Vertongen is also quality. Rose has come on lot this season and it is about 60/40 in favour of him to start over Bertrand however Clyne over Walker is an absolute no brainer for me.
I think Rose is a better defender, but he came through as an attacking midfielder/winger, and as such, I expect him to get caught out of position at least once or twice a match. As someone else said, Bertrand's shape and positioning are far superior.
A big reason why Spurs were so good defensively is because they pressed high up the pitch and teams struggled to play out. Their 4-1 over Man City was an excellent example. They struggled when they sat deep in the first half, but as soon as they could get at the City defenders mistakes were made all over the place. In that style, the fullbacks are usually tasked with getting very tight to their winger (as opposed to more zonal marking when sitting deeper) and to try to intercept passes into them or close them down quickly. In those situations, Walker and Rose's pace are a great attribute. Those attributes are less helpful when defending deeper.
England will play a pressing game not dissimilar to Spurs', but in a tournament with games every three days it's hard to maintain that intensity. Furthermore, at international level, teams tend to be better at playing it out of the back than at Premier league (though that is notably not the case with Russia, with the C+P twins at the back).
As for the full backs it depends on which system we play. It's looking like a 433 or 442 diamond. Neither of which really has any width so you rely on the full backs to provide the width. So I'd favour Walker and Rose
On the Rooney in CM debate I agree he has done well playing as a deep lying playmaker for United. But that is a bit of a luxury position we can't afford. We saw against Turkey we had Dier holding. Wilshere alongside and Ali playing the more attacking number 10 role. And we lacked discipline in CM against a better team that midfield will be over run.
You need someone who can go box to box alongside Dier, in my view is have Drinky. He can help shield the back four, can drop in when the full backs get forward (which is so important in this system) . He is defensively sound buy also has a good range of passing, will run all day and has an understanding with Vary like that of Ali/Kane. I wouldn't mind Henderson in this role either, and could see Woy playing Milner there.
What's this got to do with Rooney? I'm getting there. Wilshere wasn't disciplined enough to play that Role against Turkey, for one second let's imagine it. We play Rooney in that role alongside Dier, against one of the top teams. (Or even just a decent hard working team). Rooney like a free role he drifts around searching for the ball and he can get away with this for Manure as the rest of their midfield does the work and the teams they are up against aren't quite France/Germany. But with Ali playing behind the strikers and Rooney having that role the midfield will be Dier vs 4/5 we will implode without a doubt. On the ball we would be fine but off the ball there is no way Rooney is disciplined enough or has the legs to play that role as well as Hendo or Drinky. And can you see him dropping in when a full back bombs forward? I can't?
The only role I want him playing is the number 10 role but he is behind Ali and Barkley for that.
But we all know Woy will change the system to fit him in somewhere or play him out wide in the 433 where again we have better players.
Would have him in the squad, can play in a few positions and a very good player. But doesn't deserve a starting berth if you ask me.
But I was just making the point that people are always making excuses for him. It was at Man Utd that people were saying he is a striker, we need to be playing him up front and all the pundits and public were agreeing. Go forward a year and it is the complete opposite argument. Everyone is saying he needs to be in midfield whether we are talking England or Utd. I just can't understand why nobody else has picked up on the fact that everyone is contradicting what they were saying last year.
Sorry, should take this moment to clarify that I'm not talking about you, it seems to be punditry in general. It seems to me the problem really is that he's not disciplined or tactically intelligent enough to have a "natural position," and as such always looks out of position. I think the #10 role is one where you can afford individual freedom, and thus he lands there by default.