Mentioned on another thread. I don't know a huge amount but my maternal grandfather, Thomas Murphy was in the Royal Munster Fusiliers and was at the Somme. As children every summer my brother and I would get the boat train from Paddington to Fishguard, and then a ship called the Inishfallen right into the centre of Cork City where we would be met by my grandfather or grandmother and then take the Limerick bus to Rath Luric my mother's little home town. My grandfather had been in the Royal Munster Fusiliers and had been a professional soldier including serving in Sudan. He deserted but re enlisted using another name for WW1. He survived the Somme, and I know nothing about the circumstances of his involvement beyond his regiment. After the war, as a nationalist he was embroiled in the troubles, and according to family history he helped an IRA man escape the Black and Tans who were searching for him at the local railway station...real hide in a hay cart stuff. I believe in hindsight that he suffered PTSD, he led a humble life as a 'chicken plucker' and was a terrible drinker who preferred to sleep in the open fields next to his little place breathing in the cool clean damp Irish air. Perhaps in contrast to the noise and smoke and stench of the trenches on the Somme.
My grandad, Walter Gordon Davis, volunteered in 1915 aged 25 and with three young kids. He joined the Royal West Kent regiment. He was shot through the shoulder at Festubert in January 1916 but patched up and back in the ranks a few weeks later.
On 3 July he was seriously wounded during the attack on German positions around the town of Ovillers on the Somme. Fortunately, he survived.
I have been privileged to see the specific field where this happened, with the German forward trench position clearly identifiable. Just next to that field is a war cemetery. My eyes moved from the field to the cemetery around me and all the gravestones were of soldiers of the Royal West Kents, most in their late teens or early 20s who died in that same attack. My grandad's mates.
Just heartbreaking.
My grandad was demobbed in 1919 and returned home - to Floyd Road SE7. The first of 5 generations of Addicks. He died in 1969 aged 79 having had 10 kids, including my dad.
God bless grandad. God bless dad. God bless all those lost and wounded on the Somme.
Wonderfully poignant tribute at Waterloo Station when I got off the train this morning. 'Live art' actors in full character get dressed as WW1 soldiers and mixing with the crowd. If you spoke to them, they even shared a personal story. Good god - if you ever needed a reality check as you headed into work that's it. They fought for so much - and certainly not for us to tear each other to shreds.
I wrote this poem on the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1 when i read in the i Newspaper about a comment made by an officer to his men just before they went over the top.
BATTLEFIELD WWI
Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils, Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
The head teacher welcomes them to the morning assembly, Generals give valedictions, via the safety of their desks, Bumps and bruises, created in the playground, Mud and bullets are the currency of war.
Plasters can conceal those grazed kneecaps, From tons of lead, the body cannot endure, Go gently into the cavern of learning. Go gently into the tunnel of war.
Mother will give the boy a cuddle, Mother earth will caress the man to her soul, Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils, Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
The playground is for laughter and pretending, The battlefield is for sorrow and annihilation. Push and pull, as the schoolboy bundle becomes engaging, The machine gun fire, rips into the unguarded flesh.
You will be lacking in word play, You will be bereft of nature’s breath, Boys don’t want their fathers, as they lay winded in the dirt, Young men crave their mothers’ loving embrace whilst they Lay bleeding in the mud.
How the children daydream as they build castles in the air, How can human existence begat such carnage and despair. The bell tolls, for the end of playtime, The bell tolls, for the end of life.
Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils, Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
So you were David's father, And he was your only son, And the new-cut peats are rotting And the work is left undone, Because of an old man weeping, Just an old man in pain, For David, his son David, That will not come again.
Oh, the letters he wrote you, And I can see them still, Not a word of the fighting But just the sheep on the hill And how you should get the crops in Ere the year got stormier, And the Bosches have got his body, And I was his officer.
You were only David's father, But I had fifty sons When we went up that evening Under the arch of the guns, And we came back at twilight — O God! I heard them call To me for help and pity That could not help at all.
Oh, never will I forget you, My men that trusted me, More my sons than your fathers' For they could only see The little helpless babies And the young men in their pride. They could not see you dying And hold you while you died.
Happy and young and gallant, they saw their first born go, But not the strong limbs broken And the beautiful men brought low, The piteous writhing bodies, They screamed, "Don't leave me Sir," For they were only fathers But I was your officer.
It's an interesting way of portraying the battle and hopefully keeping younger generations interested throughout the day. There are lots of excerpts from personal accounts scattered throughout.
It's an interesting way of portraying the battle and hopefully keeping younger generations interested throughout the day. There are lots of excerpts from personal accounts scattered throughout.
Ive spent all morning reading this. Its absolutely harrowing
I did the tour of the Somme some years ago, and it was very humbling and emotional. God bless all those who took part, may they all rest in peace. They deserve to.
It's an interesting way of portraying the battle and hopefully keeping younger generations interested throughout the day. There are lots of excerpts from personal accounts scattered throughout.
Cheers for the link... What the hell with the most recent one...
A brigadier orders his colonel to be at a row of apple trees in the village by 4 o’ clock.
When told this is unlikely, he simply says: “Those are the orders.”
My grandad, Walter Gordon Davis, volunteered in 1915 aged 25 and with three young kids. He joined the Royal West Kent regiment. He was shot through the shoulder at Festubert in January 1916 but patched up and back in the ranks a few weeks later.
On 3 July he was seriously wounded during the attack on German positions around the town of Ovillers on the Somme. Fortunately, he survived.
I have been privileged to see the specific field where this happened, with the German forward trench position clearly identifiable. Just next to that field is a war cemetery. My eyes moved from the field to the cemetery around me and all the gravestones were of soldiers of the Royal West Kents, most in their late teens or early 20s who died in that same attack. My grandad's mates.
Just heartbreaking.
My grandad was demobbed in 1919 and returned home - to Floyd Road SE7. The first of 5 generations of Addicks. He died in 1969 aged 79 having had 10 kids, including my dad.
God bless grandad. God bless dad. God bless all those lost and wounded on the Somme.
Re: Walter Gordon Davis Again, you may already know this info but I have found a copy of both his joining up 'Attestation' at Woolwich dated 14 June 1915 (address Siemens Road Woolwich) and again his disability pension (as a result of gun shot wound to left thigh) award dated 1919 (address 55 Floyd Road). Hopefully this is the right Walter Davis. His service number was 179189. These are copies of the original documents and the signing up one bears his signature.
My Grandad Charles Somme Hastings was Born on May 2nd 1917. I knew him as Dad as he brought me up as a child and I was the unofficial 6th Kid in his family line up. As a kid I grew up being told all the stories about world war two, the bombings, the air raids and Dad's part driving munitions lorries around the country. The story that most intrigued me was why Dad's middle name was Somme. So he sat me down when I was about ten years old and told me the story of his brother Tommy Hastings. Tom was born in 1899 a year after another son who had died in infancy and was also named Charles. So Tommy was the eldest boy and when the war broke out he tried to enlist at 15 but the recruitment people found out and one of the recruiters took him aside and said come back in a year and we will get you in. So a 16 year old Tommy took himself along a year later and got himself assigned to the the 7th Battalion Queens Own (Royal West Kent regiment). Tommy's regiment eventually found itself at the Somme at the begining of the bombardment just after he turned 17. His campaign lasted a short time, but must have felt like a whole lifetime in hell. Tommy was killed in action on July 13th 1916.
My Great Grandmother was in mouring for her son for the rest of her life wearing something black everyday in honour of Tommy. Naturally, when she fell pregnant she named my Dad after her first born who had died shortly after he was born and in memory of Tommy she gave him the middle name Somme, hoping that this dreadful battle would never be forgotten.
Knowing I wouldnt be able to get over on the 13th July to pay my respects, I visited Thiepval on May 5th whilst I was on holiday. Ive been a least a couple of dozen times over the years and although Im not a religious person, Ive always said a few words to Tommy. Dad died a month short of his 98th Birthday last year so this year I said a few words to the brothers who had never met and neither will be forgotten whilst I still breath.
Not for the first time, when I took the photo of the monument, it struck me how such a beautiful place could have been so full of horror. It seemed fitting that there were a group of teenagers running around so full of life in a place for the dead...many of them at an age that young Tommy tried to sign up.....what a different world we live in now.
My grandad, Walter Gordon Davis, volunteered in 1915 aged 25 and with three young kids. He joined the Royal West Kent regiment. He was shot through the shoulder at Festubert in January 1916 but patched up and back in the ranks a few weeks later.
On 3 July he was seriously wounded during the attack on German positions around the town of Ovillers on the Somme. Fortunately, he survived.
I have been privileged to see the specific field where this happened, with the German forward trench position clearly identifiable. Just next to that field is a war cemetery. My eyes moved from the field to the cemetery around me and all the gravestones were of soldiers of the Royal West Kents, most in their late teens or early 20s who died in that same attack. My grandad's mates.
Just heartbreaking.
My grandad was demobbed in 1919 and returned home - to Floyd Road SE7. The first of 5 generations of Addicks. He died in 1969 aged 79 having had 10 kids, including my dad.
God bless grandad. God bless dad. God bless all those lost and wounded on the Somme.
Re: Walter Gordon Davis Again, you may already know this info but I have found a copy of both his joining up 'Attestation' at Woolwich dated 14 June 1915 (address Siemens Road Woolwich) and again his disability pension (as a result of gun shot wound to left thigh) award dated 1919 (address 55 Floyd Road). Hopefully this is the right Walter Davis. His service number was 179189. These are copies of the original documents and the signing up one bears his signature.
Would you like me to post them on here?
Thanks very much for the offer @cherryorchard. That is the right person but I already have copies of all his service record - courtesy of some pretty intensive research about 3 years ago.
David Stevenson - 1914-1918 Bill Philpott - Bloody Victory Gary Sheffield - Forgotten Victory Peter Simkins - Somme Defeat to Victory
Yesterday was a commemoration event held at a memorial to the missing so very limited to what can be discussed. I was there for considerably longer than 10 minutes and felt the event was balanced, respectful and dignified.
With regards to learning from the first days events, have a look at the changes implemented both at a tactical and operational level by the BEF between July and September.
With regards to the question of who ordered this, consider the strategical situation both the British and French found themselves in late 1915, could the Somme have delivered a breakthrough on the Western Front in July 1916, it's unlikely once French participation was limited due to their defensive action at Verdun.
What is quite clear is that the Somme not only relieves the pressure from our senior partner it stretches the German army to breaking point. It's point (proven by there decision to retire to the Hindenburg Line in February 1917), from which, despite huge but declining military resources they never recover.
The first day of the Somme is regarded as a national tragedy, it's appropriate this is the case given the huge numbers of volunteers who I strongly believe did not do what they did 'because it's what were told' (although that makes a nice stanza to a poem) and is one the UK is unlikely ever to come to terms with given the size and losses, but to suggest nothing has or was learnt by it is just wrong.
Any war is bad, but the total war we found ourselves in a century ago is incomprehensible for us to understand a century on hence the reason a wealth of academic study if turned put on the subject and historians like myself have pretty much spent our working lives trying to understand better the events of the Great War, thankfully Charles Dance and 10 minutes of BBC2 were not the basis of our primary source material.
The Somme shaped and changed far more lives than it ended, once we start to understand that we have a better chance to comprehend the events of a century ago.
I am walking today with a group studying the ground between Serre and Beaumont Hamel today, well trodden areas but we are considering the changes between 1 July and 13 November 1916 (the two dates the ground was attacked over) without the aid of actors and poems admittedly but with historians so probably better suited to answer the questions you raised.
I and a fellow Charlton supporter walked that sector of the battlefield just over a week ago. I hope the ground had dried up for you. When we were there, many of the paths on the Redan Ridge were flooded and Railway Hollow Cemetery was under about a foot of water. I worked out that we walked about ten miles that day which would normally be a breeze for me but the mud and the effort needed to keep one's balance in the conditions left both of us exhausted.
Thank god someone had the foresight to record the soldiers accounts, I think this was done several years ago by the IWM which I found the most humble and perceptive. I could not stop remembering my late grandfather who used to tell me stories\accounts when I was at Sherrington school. My Grandmother said he would not talk to any one else about the war, not even to herself. I have his letters and cards sent home, along with his medals and buffs cap badge, amongst my most cherished items
If you are one end of a field and the enemy are the other end of the field and both sides are shooting at one and other I think you would dig a fuckin trench order or not
Fair enough, I think I was both very drunk when I wrote that and also overwhelmed by the loss of life being explained.
The loss of life seemed to me to be very high.
I am not a Somme historian and my impression may be wrong.
It seemed to me that those who were in the ruling classes and in senior forces positions at that time had little regard for life, which I find disgusting.
But the truth is those in charge of our armed forces had a far greater concern for life than we give them credit for, in fact the three British General sacked on the Somme,
Maj Gen Ivor Phillips 38 Welsh Div at Mametz Maj Gen Barter 47 London Div at High Wood Maj Gen Stewart Wortly 46 North Mids Div at Gommecourt
All three were sacked for unnecessary loss of life!
Around 40% of officers commissioned in the British Army were 'from the ranks' and lower middle class working backgrounds. The ruling elite, statistically suffered higher than any other strata of British society it really was a case of 'come on follow me' as opposed to 'over you go boys' and the Chateau General myth can also be disputed in many cases.
The feeling among the academic world (and were not always right by a longs stretch) is that the Great War is from a British perspective a coming together of the classes that erodes at the old order as opposed to rigidly enforcing it.
Thanks CherryOrchard I have the medal cards and a copy of when he was mentioned in dispatches signed by Winston Churchill, did a lot of research a few years ago.
Comments
I don't know a huge amount but my maternal grandfather, Thomas Murphy was in the Royal Munster Fusiliers and was at the Somme.
As children every summer my brother and I would get the boat train from Paddington to Fishguard, and then a ship called the Inishfallen right into the centre of Cork City where we would be met by my grandfather or grandmother and then take the Limerick bus to Rath Luric my mother's little home town.
My grandfather had been in the Royal Munster Fusiliers and had been a professional soldier including serving in Sudan.
He deserted but re enlisted using another name for WW1. He survived the Somme, and I know nothing about the circumstances of his involvement beyond his regiment.
After the war, as a nationalist he was embroiled in the troubles, and according to family history he helped an IRA man escape the Black and Tans who were searching for him at the local railway station...real hide in a hay cart stuff.
I believe in hindsight that he suffered PTSD, he led a humble life as a 'chicken plucker' and was a terrible drinker who preferred to sleep in the open fields next to his little place breathing in the cool clean damp Irish air. Perhaps in contrast to the noise and smoke and stench of the trenches on the Somme.
On 3 July he was seriously wounded during the attack on German positions around the town of Ovillers on the Somme. Fortunately, he survived.
I have been privileged to see the specific field where this happened, with the German forward trench position clearly identifiable. Just next to that field is a war cemetery. My eyes moved from the field to the cemetery around me and all the gravestones were of soldiers of the Royal West Kents, most in their late teens or early 20s who died in that same attack. My grandad's mates.
Just heartbreaking.
My grandad was demobbed in 1919 and returned home - to Floyd Road SE7. The first of 5 generations of Addicks. He died in 1969 aged 79 having had 10 kids, including my dad.
God bless grandad. God bless dad. God bless all those lost and wounded on the Somme.
when i read in the i Newspaper about a comment made by an officer to his men just before they went over the top.
BATTLEFIELD WWI
Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils,
Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
The head teacher welcomes them to the morning assembly,
Generals give valedictions, via the safety of their desks,
Bumps and bruises, created in the playground,
Mud and bullets are the currency of war.
Plasters can conceal those grazed kneecaps,
From tons of lead, the body cannot endure,
Go gently into the cavern of learning.
Go gently into the tunnel of war.
Mother will give the boy a cuddle,
Mother earth will caress the man to her soul,
Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils,
Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
The playground is for laughter and pretending,
The battlefield is for sorrow and annihilation.
Push and pull, as the schoolboy bundle becomes engaging,
The machine gun fire, rips into the unguarded flesh.
You will be lacking in word play,
You will be bereft of nature’s breath,
Boys don’t want their fathers, as they lay winded in the dirt,
Young men crave their mothers’ loving embrace whilst they
Lay bleeding in the mud.
How the children daydream as they build castles in the air,
How can human existence begat such carnage and despair.
The bell tolls, for the end of playtime,
The bell tolls, for the end of life.
Walk, don’t run, said the teacher to her pupils,
Walk, don’t run, said the officer to his men.
I still have the old big gun shell that I bought from a farmer at home somewhere.
Private D. Sutherland
So you were David's father,
And he was your only son,
And the new-cut peats are rotting
And the work is left undone,
Because of an old man weeping,
Just an old man in pain,
For David, his son David,
That will not come again.
Oh, the letters he wrote you,
And I can see them still,
Not a word of the fighting
But just the sheep on the hill
And how you should get the crops in
Ere the year got stormier,
And the Bosches have got his body,
And I was his officer.
You were only David's father,
But I had fifty sons
When we went up that evening
Under the arch of the guns,
And we came back at twilight
— O God! I heard them call
To me for help and pity
That could not help at all.
Oh, never will I forget you,
My men that trusted me,
More my sons than your fathers'
For they could only see
The little helpless babies
And the young men in their pride.
They could not see you dying
And hold you while you died.
Happy and young and gallant,
they saw their first born go,
But not the strong limbs broken
And the beautiful men brought low,
The piteous writhing bodies,
They screamed, "Don't leave me Sir,"
For they were only fathers
But I was your officer.
Ewart Alan MacKintosh
The opening of the memorial in 2014
Since then we've found the missing Addick
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/70948/lest-we-forget-charlton-player-h-nobby-nightingale-13-1-16
Lest we forget.
It's an interesting way of portraying the battle and hopefully keeping younger generations interested throughout the day. There are lots of excerpts from personal accounts scattered throughout.
A brigadier orders his colonel to be at a row of apple trees in the village by 4 o’ clock.
When told this is unlikely, he simply says: “Those are the orders.”
Again, you may already know this info but I have found a copy of both his joining up 'Attestation' at Woolwich dated 14 June 1915 (address Siemens Road Woolwich) and again his disability pension (as a result of gun shot wound to left thigh) award dated 1919 (address 55 Floyd Road). Hopefully this is the right Walter Davis. His service number was 179189. These are copies of the original documents and the signing up one bears his signature.
Would you like me to post them on here?
Tom was born in 1899 a year after another son who had died in infancy and was also named Charles. So Tommy was the eldest boy and when the war broke out he tried to enlist at 15 but the recruitment people found out and one of the recruiters took him aside and said come back in a year and we will get you in. So a 16 year old Tommy took himself along a year later and got himself assigned to the the 7th Battalion Queens Own (Royal West Kent regiment). Tommy's regiment eventually found itself at the Somme at the begining of the bombardment just after he turned 17. His campaign lasted a short time, but must have felt like a whole lifetime in hell. Tommy was killed in action on July 13th 1916.
My Great Grandmother was in mouring for her son for the rest of her life wearing something black everyday in honour of Tommy. Naturally, when she fell pregnant she named my Dad after her first born who had died shortly after he was born and in memory of Tommy she gave him the middle name Somme, hoping that this dreadful battle would never be forgotten.
Knowing I wouldnt be able to get over on the 13th July to pay my respects, I visited Thiepval on May 5th whilst I was on holiday. Ive been a least a couple of dozen times over the years and although Im not a religious person, Ive always said a few words to Tommy. Dad died a month short of his 98th Birthday last year so this year I said a few words to the brothers who had never met and neither will be forgotten whilst I still breath.
Not for the first time, when I took the photo of the monument, it struck me how such a beautiful place could have been so full of horror. It seemed fitting that there were a group of teenagers running around so full of life in a place for the dead...many of them at an age that young Tommy tried to sign up.....what a different world we live in now.
I've got to say it makes me very very angry.
There is no discussion around how the trenching occurred, who's decision it was to order this. Why?
And also whoever decided this was disgusting.
Yes yes it's fine to have the poor people die. Ok.
For gods sake.
I can take the true chalice
I will support my country
And I have been given a dream
And my direction is a clear
To do what's good for my country
I do what I am told
It's right because I'm told
And then my friends
The same as me
Recruited as I was
We die, we're maimed
For what for what
Because that's what we're told.
David Stevenson - 1914-1918
Bill Philpott - Bloody Victory
Gary Sheffield - Forgotten Victory
Peter Simkins - Somme Defeat to Victory
Yesterday was a commemoration event held at a memorial to the missing so very limited to what can be discussed. I was there for considerably longer than 10 minutes and felt the event was balanced, respectful and dignified.
With regards to learning from the first days events, have a look at the changes implemented both at a tactical and operational level by the BEF between July and September.
With regards to the question of who ordered this, consider the strategical situation both the British and French found themselves in late 1915, could the Somme have delivered a breakthrough on the Western Front in July 1916, it's unlikely once French participation was limited due to their defensive action at Verdun.
What is quite clear is that the Somme not only relieves the pressure from our senior partner it stretches the German army to breaking point. It's point (proven by there decision to retire to the Hindenburg Line in February 1917), from which, despite huge but declining military resources they never recover.
The first day of the Somme is regarded as a national tragedy, it's appropriate this is the case given the huge numbers of volunteers who I strongly believe did not do what they did 'because it's what were told' (although that makes a nice stanza to a poem) and is one the UK is unlikely ever to come to terms with given the size and losses, but to suggest nothing has or was learnt by it is just wrong.
Any war is bad, but the total war we found ourselves in a century ago is incomprehensible for us to understand a century on hence the reason a wealth of academic study if turned put on the subject and historians like myself have pretty much spent our working lives trying to understand better the events of the Great War, thankfully Charles Dance and 10 minutes of BBC2 were not the basis of our primary source material.
The Somme shaped and changed far more lives than it ended, once we start to understand that we have a better chance to comprehend the events of a century ago.
I am walking today with a group studying the ground between Serre and Beaumont Hamel today, well trodden areas but we are considering the changes between 1 July and 13 November 1916 (the two dates the ground was attacked over) without the aid of actors and poems admittedly but with historians so probably better suited to answer the questions you raised.
I and a fellow Charlton supporter walked that sector of the battlefield just over a week ago. I hope the ground had dried up for you. When we were there, many of the paths on the Redan Ridge were flooded and Railway Hollow Cemetery was under about a foot of water. I worked out that we walked about ten miles that day which would normally be a breeze for me but the mud and the effort needed to keep one's balance in the conditions left both of us exhausted.
My Grandmother said he would not talk to any one else about the war, not even to herself.
I have his letters and cards sent home, along with his medals and buffs cap badge, amongst my most cherished items
The loss of life seemed to me to be very high.
I am not a Somme historian and my impression may be wrong.
It seemed to me that those who were in the ruling classes and in senior forces positions at that time had little regard for life, which I find disgusting.
But the truth is those in charge of our armed forces had a far greater concern for life than we give them credit for, in fact the three British General sacked on the Somme,
Maj Gen Ivor Phillips 38 Welsh Div at Mametz
Maj Gen Barter 47 London Div at High Wood
Maj Gen Stewart Wortly 46 North Mids Div at Gommecourt
All three were sacked for unnecessary loss of life!
Around 40% of officers commissioned in the British Army were 'from the ranks' and lower middle class working backgrounds. The ruling elite, statistically suffered higher than any other strata of British society it really was a case of 'come on follow me' as opposed to 'over you go boys' and the Chateau General myth can also be disputed in many cases.
The feeling among the academic world (and were not always right by a longs stretch) is that the Great War is from a British perspective a coming together of the classes that erodes at the old order as opposed to rigidly enforcing it.
I'll bore off now
I never met him he died before I was born.