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Savings and Investments thread
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Wish I could like this more than once. The situation they put themselves in is unacceptable. Hedge funds hunt on people’s greed, that’s not necessarily a dig, who else looks at RSI and if a stock is oversold or overbought? it’s just this time it was the retail investor who got the laugh.No.1 in South London said:Any "unforeseen consequences" can be directly attributed to the hedge funds who didn't manage their risk, in fact they went out on a limb to take positions of unlimited risk and continue to do so. The only risk the retail investors took was to their "OWN" bank balance. There is absolutely zero responsibility that can be aimed attributed to the "little guy" here.
If you want to look for someone to blame if your assets take an unrealised "hit" (they will bounce back as usual) then you need to look no further than a Ken Griffin, a Steve Cohen or others of their ilk and also the people who "should" have been regulating them, but didn't.
Here is what a psychologist said about his experience working with the ultra high net worth individuals "They have this feeling that rules don’t apply to them, although that mind-set is often the key to much of their success. If they’re told something can’t be done a certain way, they think that doesn’t apply to them and find a way around it. It can be viewed as elitist or having a sense of entitlement, but it’s also a highly effective strategy for innovative thinking. One reason is a lack of boundaries. They think the rules don’t apply to them. And you know what? They are right, the rules don’t. They get all this exclusive access to everything, because people are courting them for their money. The rules don’t apply even if the billionaire wants them to apply, and that makes it challenging to have boundaries. Professionals with very strict codes of conduct will loosen their own boundaries to work with these individuals and not get fired by them. It becomes hard for a billionaire to get objective feedback from others because of their status.
When the regulators who are being funded and paid by the people that they are supposed to be regulating, you can quite easily end up in a Game Stop situation. "unlimited risk" WTF??
A combination of smart investing (buying a stock that had been artificially kept low for a long time), millennial nostalgia (who else used to hang out for hours in their local GAME shop? Spent some great hours there) and anti institutional sentiment since 2008 and their greed snowballed it into the situation.Overleveraged longs caused the last crash, looks like overleveraged shorting will cause the next. In short, these institutions need more regulating.4 -
The Reddit movement still has a long way to go. 7.4 million now registered on Wall Street Bets, GME is going to rocket tomorrow.
I can't risk the price of GameStop but I might try buy some AMC shares.0 -
Anymore on people going for Cineworld to squeeze UK hedge funds?0
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Here's a good read on a 2014 "short story" where the erstwhile Steve A. Cohen and his crew were "successful"....... karma how well his investment in Melvin Capital is working out. Hopefully he will keep throwing plenty of cash their way to pay their dues.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/13/empire-edge0 -
Er no, I don' think that's what he said at all. I haven't got anything to add to what I previously reported him to say. But "unforeseen consequences" will, I suggest, turn out to be the key phrase.kentaddick said:
So a hedge fund way overleverages itself attempting to manipulate a stock, gets caught out and yet it’s the retail investors fault?PragueAddick said:
I didn't hear him go that far. Wish I could recall his name, he was talking a lot of sense. He wasn't seeking to defend hedge funds per se, either, just trying to point out that it's not as simple as the little guy sticking it to the Man, and that there could be a variety of unforeseen consequences.Huskaris said:
That is fascinating. Was the suggestion that this was part of the reason of the couple of % wiped off the stock markets in the past few days?PragueAddick said:
Yes. An adult on BBC World Service this morning was explaining that the hedge funds are reacting by selling their shares in normal stocks that they would not otherwise sell, in order to cover themselves. That is why Apple was down 5% on record breaking figures. Many pension funds will hold Apple.oohaahmortimer said:Just googled and saw this
“ A hedge fund raises its capital from a variety of sources, including high net worth individuals, corporations, foundations, endowments, and pension funds.”
so potentially people’s pensions will be fucked, greeeeeeeat ffs
I'm not taking sides on this either way at this stage. There is a lot to play out yet. The same adult pointed out that there are three players in this, the hedgies, the Reddit -driven retail investors, and then the platforms.
Let's see. I'm just happy to be watching from the sidelines. I can take a whack on my tech stock holdings for the privilege.0 -
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.0 -
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.
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I believe KA was talking about GameStop - high street video game stores are dying as sales move to downloadsPragueAddick said:
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.2 -
sighPragueAddick said:
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.1 -
Some of those "kids in their pyjamas" are financial analysts and have made millions already 🙄PragueAddick said:
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.1 - Sponsored links:
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If that’s the case then I apologise for misinterpreting his postLeeds_Addick said:
I believe KA was talking about GameStop - high street video game stores are dying as sales move to downloadsPragueAddick said:
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.0 -
That may be true, sort of. With these bubbles, gong back more than a century, there are the few who know exactly what they are doing, and make a shedload.jacob_CAFC said:
Some of those "kids in their pyjamas" are financial analysts and have made millions already 🙄PragueAddick said:
I think it's pointless to ask, as you can easily look it up before answering...but do you actually know what industry Nokia is in nowadays? If so, why do you say it is "dying" ?kentaddick said:
Yes it is. Just like GameStop was undervalued - it just snowballed because it became a meme, because it’s funny that such a nostalgic company and in a dying industry is actually undervalued.WillmoreTheRed said:Anyone else in on Nokia, I’m in big but not for any short squeeze or Reddit hype. I generally believe they are undervalued compared to the rest of the 5G market.
TBF I'm only aware of the answer thanks to my old and very dear Finnish friend who spent a long time with Nokia earlier in his career. But the point is @WillmoreTheRed looks like he has invested in Nokia for the right reasons, while all those kids in their pyjamas on Reddit, how many of them can say that? That's what makes me uneasy, and is a similar unease to what I get from crypto.But if you think you are one of the few, dont let me stop you, fill yer boots.1 -
The kids in their PJs also have access to excellent modelling, and a load of computing power which allows them to be able to analyse their stuff.
When you can spin up plenty of computing power via AWS or Google Cloud for not much money, these kids can match these hedge funds in lots of way2 -
February Million pound premium bond winners are a man from inner London and somebody from Yorkshire. Anybody holding out from us
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Not me. Only call I got from an unknown number today was some idiot Czech guy who thinks he can sell me "financial services"Chaz Hill said:February Million pound premium bond winners are a man from inner London and somebody from Yorkshire. Anybody holding out from us
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Winning bond number 398WP403111
got excited for a minute as some of mine start 398 bought end of June ..... but alas not me.0 -
I see my disguise worked then.....PragueAddick said:
Not me. Only call I got from an unknown number today was some idiot Czech guy who thinks he can sell me "financial services"Chaz Hill said:February Million pound premium bond winners are a man from inner London and somebody from Yorkshire. Anybody holding out from us 3 -
Wasn't golfovyie was it?PragueAddick said:
Not me. Only call I got from an unknown number today was some idiot Czech guy who thinks he can sell me "financial services"Chaz Hill said:February Million pound premium bond winners are a man from inner London and somebody from Yorkshire. Anybody holding out from us 2 -
Fascinating times.
Having trawled through the WSB thread, it's clear Gamestop was a genuine deep value play originally, with a large dollop of sentiment which then turned into 'stick it to the man'. Going to be difficult for a regulator to suggest that it was market manipulation on that basis.
Was reminded of Newton, who famously made a 100% turn on the South Sea Bubble, got out when it got a bit mad, only to go back in when it carried on going up and ultimately lost 3 times his original stake ...
A bit of background on Hedge Funds, for those who haven't come across them. Originally they only risked their own capital (they've been around since about 1949). The idea is that they use derivatives and smart algorithms to maximise returns and minimise risks.
In the early naughties there was a big surge in raising institutional money when the latter wanted in on the big returns they were making. I worked for a few in those years (including Citadel & SAC, the precursor to Point72), helping them choose and install derivatives systems because they needed to prove to the institutions that they could manage the risks they were taking. Let's just say that there are more hedge funds than there is smart talent and many went bust in the GFC.
SAC famously got done for insider trading (Damien Lewis' character, Bobby Axelrod, in Billions, is heavily based on Steve Cohen) and a few went to prison. After the crisis, proprietary trading (trading on your own account) was banned in banks under the Dodd Frank rules, so, ironically a lot of the guys I worked for in the big banks left to set up new hedge funds. Essentially, prop trading moved to the (relatively) non-regulated world. Dodd Frank did bring any but the smallest under regulation and required detailed reporting, but they aren't prevented from prop trading, unlike the banks, as they aren't considered systemic.
If you haven't already, Billions is well worth watching - it's a pretty accurate view of the hedge fund industry, in my opinion, albeit with a focus on accusations of insider trading. (Gordon Gekko was a 'barbarian at the gate' private equity 'leveraged buy-out', asset stripper.)5 - Sponsored links:
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Premium Bonds, £50 for me, nothing for Mrs R7L.0
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£25 for Mrs Large, nought for me, nought for my Mum, £100 for the MIL.0
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App telling me Results not yet available! Bas***** prolonging the agony until they tell me I've won bugger all again.
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£50 for me, £25 for my better half, can’t complain although would have preferred a biggy with a few more 0’s.0
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Mines working now & sweet FA.Chaz Hill said:App telling me Results not yet available! Bas***** prolonging the agony until they tell me I've won bugger all again.0 -
Cheers. Just checked again and surprise surprise £25 for me and for the other half.guinnessaddick said:
Mines working now & sweet FA.Chaz Hill said:App telling me Results not yet available! Bas***** prolonging the agony until they tell me I've won bugger all again. 0 -
I'm currently shorting silver after the latest WallStreetBets initiative.
I don't think you can get away with stuff like that on something as big as silver.
Unfortunately I couldn't find anywhere on Monday where I could short Gamestop...
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Bugger all this month.0
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When the fun stops.bobmunro said:Bugger all this month.10 -
Huskaris said:I'm currently shorting silver after the latest WallStreetBets initiative.
I don't think you can get away with stuff like that on something as big as silver.
Unfortunately I couldn't find anywhere on Monday where I could short Gamestop...
Wall Street Bets has been advising everyone not to buy silver. It's been interesting seeing it spread as fake news, because there's obviously an agenda/money behind it.
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