Posted this in the Premier League thread too. Ridiculous that the game has put itself into a situation where this is offside
Surely the defender to the right of Bamford is playing him onside with his arse.
The upper part of the arm was deemed to be offside. And as that part of the arm is no longer deemed to be handball (so you can score with it) the goal was deemed to be offside.
Not saying it's right because there should be an element of spirit of the Law but that is why it was given as offside.
I understand that, but VAR has drawn the line against the defender to the left of Bamford, you can’t see where the body of the defender on his left is, so how does VAR make a decision?
The people who are reviewing VAR are doing to the letter of the law and not allowing for common sense to prevail. The rules regarding offside need reviewing and simplified not all this shit about "ohh his left bollock is offside and as its a goal scoring part of the body, he's offside".
I wonder how long before someone challenges a decision for damages.
The people who are reviewing VAR are doing to the letter of the law and not allowing for common sense to prevail. The rules regarding offside need reviewing and simplified not all this shit about "ohh his left bollock is offside and as its a goal scoring part of the body, he's offside".
I wonder how long before someone challenges a decision for damages.
Maybe go for the "clear daylight" rule. You are onside if any part of the body is inline with / overlapping any part of a defending player.
To give offside you have to demonstrate there is clear daylight.
It changes it to proving that someone is offside (rather than the other way round) and eliminates the "part of the body" arguments. It's like the whole of the ball over the whole of the line rule.
It's a little more difficult for defenders because the attacker can be slightly ahead of them but I have never understood why this is a problem.
Watching the offside decisions being decided with those stupid wonky lines, it feels like the people in the caravan are looking for reasons to disallow goals rather than fairly checking if the attacking player is actually in an offside position. The check in the least rigorous way possible as well
Leicester just scored a pen v Wolves. The ball being smashed at a Wolves arm from a few yards away. I said when they brought in this rule that you may as well aim for the arm rather than the goal and I was right.
I originally supported VAR for the reason off it said, to be used sparingly to resolve contentious decisions.
It's being used regularly and has not resolved anything. It's made matters far worse and should be scrapped immediately.
The people who are reviewing VAR are doing to the letter of the law and not allowing for common sense to prevail. The rules regarding offside need reviewing and simplified not all this shit about "ohh his left bollock is offside and as its a goal scoring part of the body, he's offside".
I wonder how long before someone challenges a decision for damages.
Maybe go for the "clear daylight" rule. You are onside if any part of the body is inline with / overlapping any part of a defending player.
To give offside you have to demonstrate there is clear daylight.
It changes it to proving that someone is offside (rather than the other way round) and eliminates the "part of the body" arguments. It's like the whole of the ball over the whole of the line rule.
It's a little more difficult for defenders because the attacker can be slightly ahead of them but I have never understood why this is a problem.
I agree, it appears that have majorly over complicated the offside rule to make VAR worthwhile only VAR has the tools and technology to decide a player is offside by a gnats cock.
No ref or lino could honestly 100% give the decisions VAR give.
Whilst human error did occur from refs and linos, I do think these are not as often as VAR discussions we constantly have.
Leicester just scored a pen v Wolves. The ball being smashed at a Wolves arm from a few yards away. I said when they brought in this rule that you may as well aim for the arm rather than the goal and I was right.
I originally supported VAR for the reason off it said, to be used sparingly to resolve contentious decisions.
It's being used regularly and has not resolved anything. It's made matters far worse and should be scrapped immediately.
Agreed was watching up to that point, then that's enough so watching the ipl for a couple of hours...enough is enough.
just make the offside rule apply to players feet only....... simple no nonsense rule even the plebs officiating can understand
This makes it really difficult for linesmen trying to watch two players running in the same direction. If the strides are not in synch the forward may alternate in and out of an offside position as he runs.
Impossible to watch the feet of a running player without VAR.
I'd be interested to know if anyone originally in the "pro" or "anti" VAR camps has changed their mind since it was brought in.
Personally I was generally fairly neutral on it in principle, but I was probably veering more towards the anti camp because I just didn't believe the argument that technology would solve all of footballs woes - at the end of the day the majority of decisions are still a judgement call. I didn't trust it to be a force for good.
But we were assured that the idea was for it to only be used to rectify "clear and obvious" errors, so, fair enough then. But it's not, has it? We're now told that the "clear and obvious " mantra doesn't apply to offsides. And so we end up with ludicrous decisions like the one above. Some prick sitting in a window-less room miles away getting his set square out and drawing dots and lines in some arbitrary position to see if someones fingernail was a millimetre offside. Is that what we want? I mean, is that what we REALLY want?
My biggest concern is that people have just resigned themselves to this lunacy. Look how many posts were on this thread when VAR first came in and look how many posts there have been after arguably one of the most ludicrous decisions so far. Barely a murmur. People just shrug their shoulders and on we go.
Oh and before anyone tries to say today's latest abomination isn't down to VAR and it's the new rule about the upper arm, that's bollocks. Without VAR that's a goal all day long. 99% of the people who see that will know it should've been given as a goal. Unfortunately the 1% of lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Was against it from the start and I’ve seen nothing to make me change my mind since. It’s ruining the game.
It was always going to be about perfection though, I cant understand why people get see that... I honestly dont know how it can be about clear and obvious decisions as then we we'll be back to fans demanding consistency as clear and obvious will always be a matter of opinion
It was always going to be about perfection though, I cant understand why people get see that... I honestly dont know how it can be about clear and obvious decisions as then we we'll be back to fans demanding consistency as clear and obvious will always be a matter of opinion
For me it was about where a player was called offside because the lino couldn’t see a defender playing him onside as he was blocked by an attacker. Or where a goal was scored with a blatant handball e.g. Henry vs Ireland. Or where a player is sent off incorrectly e.g. the whole Oxlade-Chamberlain/Gibbs scenario against Chelsea. Or where a player is given a yellow when the challenge is worthy of a red.
When they’re drawing lines for 3 minutes because a player might be 1mm offside, or refs are watching super slow motion replays for the tiniest bit of contact or handballs then I don’t agree with it.
It was always going to be about perfection though, I cant understand why people get see that... I honestly dont know how it can be about clear and obvious decisions as then we we'll be back to fans demanding consistency as clear and obvious will always be a matter of opinion
Why can't it just be left as the on field decision is final UNLESS it's a glaring error.
So for example Bamford's goal against Palace, there was nothing wrong with it from the ref/lino. VAR looks at it, and needs to take 2 minutes to find a 1mm gap level with Bamfords sleeve. Therefore not an obvious error in a million years so the goal stands.
Anything that takes more than 20 seconds and 2 replays or needs zoomed in line across the pitch to try and find an offside is obviously not a clear and obvious error.
just make the offside rule apply to players feet only....... simple no nonsense rule even the plebs officiating can understand
This makes it really difficult for linesmen trying to watch two players running in the same direction. If the strides are not in synch the forward may alternate in and out of an offside position as he runs.
Impossible to watch the feet of a running player without VAR.
VAR makes those decisions these days. The assistant referees don't need to make the call, VAR does that for them anyhow. It only matters when a goal is scored and that can be sorted out in seconds.
Doing way more harm than good. Just get rid of it, yes the handball rule is also stupid but after each game there seems to be a shocking VAR decision, or my personal favourite the silly offside line things! Give linos the power, as soon as the offside flag is up thats it done. Some decisions will be wrong, but thats football, part of the game!
Why not have VAR when the ref asks for it instead of someone miles away on a microphone telling the ref they have missed something?
Because that's the whole point? That VAR can see things the ref didn't.
Imagine a situation where a player punches the ball into the net (a la Maradona or Henry). Referee doesn't see it so gives the goal. The players surround the ref, minutes go by, and then eventually the referee calls for VAR, who take time looking at the replays, possibly asking the referee to go to the screen and it's not taken 5-10 minutes to get the right decision. For all it's many implementation flaws, the ability for VAR to pre-emptively call the referees attention to a possible infringement is far far better than any alternative in a situation where the referee has completely missed the infringement.
The offside and handball rules have always been a shit show, they've been tweaked numerous times in my lifetime, continually misunderstood and mischaracterised by players, managers, pundits, commentators and fans, and they're frankly a mess. They need rewriting, and they always have done, technology is just highlighting how poor they are.
I'd like to see offside move to an umpires call type system. The lino should always make a decision (no necessarily visible to the players, a handheld control would be good enough) and then VAR can draw two big chunky lines. If it's clear one way or the other then fine. If it's not immediately clear and they would currently start drawing extra lines, then you go with lino's original decision. It's frankly a joke that lino's have been told to not flag until hours after the infringement, and some of the decisions over what constitutes interfering are (and have been since the concept was introduced) a joke.
Why not have VAR when the ref asks for it instead of someone miles away on a microphone telling the ref they have missed something?
Because that's the whole point? That VAR can see things the ref didn't.
Imagine a situation where a player punches the ball into the net (a la Maradona or Henry). Referee doesn't see it so gives the goal. The players surround the ref, minutes go by, and then eventually the referee calls for VAR, who take time looking at the replays, possibly asking the referee to go to the screen and it's not taken 5-10 minutes to get the right decision. For all it's many implementation flaws, the ability for VAR to pre-emptively call the referees attention to a possible infringement is far far better than any alternative in a situation where the referee has completely missed the infringement.
The offside and handball rules have always been a shit show, they've been tweaked numerous times in my lifetime, continually misunderstood and mischaracterised by players, managers, pundits, commentators and fans, and they're frankly a mess. They need rewriting, and they always have done, technology is just highlighting how poor they are.
I'd like to see offside move to an umpires call type system. The lino should always make a decision (no necessarily visible to the players, a handheld control would be good enough) and then VAR can draw two big chunky lines. If it's clear one way or the other then fine. If it's not immediately clear and they would currently start drawing extra lines, then you go with lino's original decision. It's frankly a joke that lino's have been told to not flag until hours after the infringement, and some of the decisions over what constitutes interfering are (and have been since the concept was introduced) a joke.
The point is correcting clear and obvious errors. a players toe 5mm offside is not clear & obvious. Seeing that Bamford "offside" was not clear & obvious yet the goal got disallowed.
If a ref asks for the VAR then it would take out the 5 to 10 minutes decision making of what they may have missed.
The referee missing something is a clear and obvious error and why would the ref then call for VAR if he totally missed it? Unless we then rely on the players informing the referee that VAR is necessary, which not only would take longer for the individual incident, but players would be calling for VAR non-stop, in the hope it can bale them out of every situation.
No, the recommendation to.look again has to come from a third party. The problem now is the VAR is operated by fellow referees, with all the inherent biases and conflicts of interest, and (in the case of offside) they are going by the ridiculously anal, millimetre perfect letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. The offside law was brought in to stop goal hanging. If the player isn't gaining a clear and obvious advantage from their offside position, then it doesn't matter where they are standing, but that's not what the rules say unfortunately.
The referee missing something is a clear and obvious error and why would the ref then call for VAR if he totally missed it? Unless we then rely on the players informing the referee that VAR is necessary, which not only would take longer for the individual incident, but players would be calling for VAR non-stop, in the hope it can bale them out of every situation.
No, the recommendation to.look again has to come from a third party. The problem now is the VAR is operated by fellow referees, with all the inherent biases and conflicts of interest, and (in the case of offside) they are going by the ridiculously anal, millimetre perfect letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. The offside law was brought in to stop goal hanging. If the player isn't gaining a clear and obvious advantage from their offside position, then it doesn't matter where they are standing, but that's not what the rules say unfortunately.
One example would be a foul on the line of the penalty area. The ref could say "There has been a foul, can you direct me if it was a penalty or free kick?" That would be a good use of VAR
The referee missing something is a clear and obvious error and why would the ref then call for VAR if he totally missed it? Unless we then rely on the players informing the referee that VAR is necessary, which not only would take longer for the individual incident, but players would be calling for VAR non-stop, in the hope it can bale them out of every situation.
No, the recommendation to.look again has to come from a third party. The problem now is the VAR is operated by fellow referees, with all the inherent biases and conflicts of interest, and (in the case of offside) they are going by the ridiculously anal, millimetre perfect letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. The offside law was brought in to stop goal hanging. If the player isn't gaining a clear and obvious advantage from their offside position, then it doesn't matter where they are standing, but that's not what the rules say unfortunately.
One example would be a foul on the line of the penalty area. The ref could say "There has been a foul, can you direct me if it was a penalty or free kick?" That would be a good use of VAR
You mean VAR could be another official just like the linesmen who can assist the ref and help him come to a decision by quickly pointing out things he/she happens to see more clearly.
Now that would be too good an idea. It will never happen!
Comments
Then it took about another 2 mins after the ref had a look. In the meantime players play on with it set in their head it maybe pulled back.
If it takes that long it clearly isn't obvious mistake. Ridiculous/
The linesman also waiting for 30 seconds to flag offside is another one.
I wonder how long before someone challenges a decision for damages.
To give offside you have to demonstrate there is clear daylight.
It changes it to proving that someone is offside (rather than the other way round) and eliminates the "part of the body" arguments. It's like the whole of the ball over the whole of the line rule.
It's a little more difficult for defenders because the attacker can be slightly ahead of them but I have never understood why this is a problem.
The ball being smashed at a Wolves arm from a few yards away.
I said when they brought in this rule that you may as well aim for the arm rather than the goal and I was right.
I originally supported VAR for the reason off it said, to be used sparingly to resolve contentious decisions.
It's being used regularly and has not resolved anything.
It's made matters far worse and should be scrapped immediately.
No ref or lino could honestly 100% give the decisions VAR give.
Whilst human error did occur from refs and linos, I do think these are not as often as VAR discussions we constantly have.
Get 20 ex profesional footballers between 35-45 to help refs and rule makers to get things right.
Seeing the complete nonsense of Bamford goal being ruled out is ruining the game.
They changed the law a few years ago to say, "in line on side."
Now modern technology instead of improving the game is making it a mockery.
Impossible to watch the feet of a running player without VAR.
When they’re drawing lines for 3 minutes because a player might be 1mm offside, or refs are watching super slow motion replays for the tiniest bit of contact or handballs then I don’t agree with it.
So for example Bamford's goal against Palace, there was nothing wrong with it from the ref/lino. VAR looks at it, and needs to take 2 minutes to find a 1mm gap level with Bamfords sleeve. Therefore not an obvious error in a million years so the goal stands.
Anything that takes more than 20 seconds and 2 replays or needs zoomed in line across the pitch to try and find an offside is obviously not a clear and obvious error.
I nearly paid ten quid on NOW TV to watch players kicking balls at each others hands!
Imagine a situation where a player punches the ball into the net (a la Maradona or Henry). Referee doesn't see it so gives the goal. The players surround the ref, minutes go by, and then eventually the referee calls for VAR, who take time looking at the replays, possibly asking the referee to go to the screen and it's not taken 5-10 minutes to get the right decision. For all it's many implementation flaws, the ability for VAR to pre-emptively call the referees attention to a possible infringement is far far better than any alternative in a situation where the referee has completely missed the infringement.
The offside and handball rules have always been a shit show, they've been tweaked numerous times in my lifetime, continually misunderstood and mischaracterised by players, managers, pundits, commentators and fans, and they're frankly a mess. They need rewriting, and they always have done, technology is just highlighting how poor they are.
I'd like to see offside move to an umpires call type system. The lino should always make a decision (no necessarily visible to the players, a handheld control would be good enough) and then VAR can draw two big chunky lines. If it's clear one way or the other then fine. If it's not immediately clear and they would currently start drawing extra lines, then you go with lino's original decision. It's frankly a joke that lino's have been told to not flag until hours after the infringement, and some of the decisions over what constitutes interfering are (and have been since the concept was introduced) a joke.
The point is correcting clear and obvious errors. a players toe 5mm offside is not clear & obvious. Seeing that Bamford "offside" was not clear & obvious yet the goal got disallowed.
If a ref asks for the VAR then it would take out the 5 to 10 minutes decision making of what they may have missed.
For me, VAR is sucking the life out of football
No, the recommendation to.look again has to come from a third party. The problem now is the VAR is operated by fellow referees, with all the inherent biases and conflicts of interest, and (in the case of offside) they are going by the ridiculously anal, millimetre perfect letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. The offside law was brought in to stop goal hanging. If the player isn't gaining a clear and obvious advantage from their offside position, then it doesn't matter where they are standing, but that's not what the rules say unfortunately.
Some really good info on here if you click through to read the entire thread.
One example would be a foul on the line of the penalty area. The ref could say "There has been a foul, can you direct me if it was a penalty or free kick?" That would be a good use of VAR
Now that would be too good an idea. It will never happen!