My problem with Corbyn is this: The manifesto is not hard left at all in a European context. But that is where he comes from. Him. Abbott and McDonnell. I've seen the hard left close -up, thank you very much and I detest them as much as I detest the hard right Tories. The hard left disguises its true intentions until it gains power. The hard left took control of the Labour party in the mid 80s and Liverpool is the place where you saw the result in practice. It took Neil Kinnock to root them out and John Smith to finish the job. "Hard" anything leads to authoritarianism, corruption and intimidation. It ought to have no place in British politics.
Of course there are many young people (on CL too) who have no idea what I am on about. But Corbyn is older than me. I remember him from those days. I don't believe for one minute he or McDonnell have changed. Abbott has the further disadvantage of being thick. That "change of hairstyle" comment was just crass.
Yet unfortunately, he will count my vote for Clive Efford as a vote for him. And if he keeps her majority down, we will be stuck with him and the entire Momentum crew (for which read Soshulist Workah) as the main opposition for five years. What a grim scenario.
I used to run with the Revolutionary Communist Group (about 35 years ago) so trust me when I say that Cobyn is not hard left. He is soft left it is just that our politics have moved so far to the right he appears hard left merely on the virtue of standing still.
Incidentally I am now quite sure that I was the only member of the RCG who was not an undercover officer. I am not sure membership ever got over 15 mind.
Nice history lesson but in 2017 Hatton is still banned from the labour party and Corbyn is leading a party that is keeping the Monarchy and renewing Trident.
Corbyn has many enemies inhis own party. I was amongst them, because I was conditioned to think that way. Then I saw a manifesto that spoke to me. Now his enemies are my enemies. To many the jump I have made won't seem big, but it has been and I don't recall any politician who has inspired me in the same way.
I decided he didn't have charisma (not that it should be important) but he has bagsof it. I decided he wasn't a statemen, but a little research of his past speeches on You Tube have definitely moved me. The establishment don't want a better world for everybody - just them Making more and more money at everybody else's, at teh planet's expense, well there is no reason for it.
I am on holiday at the moment and have realised that it is not only our country that needs Corbyn, but Europe and the world does too. Europe needs to look at Corbyn and reject Merkel and the Germans and build fairer societies themselves. It has to start somewhere. This bloody hero of a man, sorry but that is how I feel about him, was allowed to slip into leader of the Labour party because the establishment (they control the Labour party too) didn't realise he was a threat. We have a window of opportunity to try to sort the mess this this world is. If it isn't this election, hoepfully it will be the next one.
Corbyn has many enemies inhis own party. I was amongst them, because I was conditioned to think that way. Then I saw a manifesto that spoke to me. Now his enemies are my enemies. To many the jump I have made won't seem big, but it has been and I don't recall any politician who has inspired me in the same way.
I decided he didn't have charisma (not that it should be important) but he has bagsof it. I decided he wasn't a statemen, but a little research of his past speeches on You Tube have definitely moved me. The establishment don't want a better world for everybody - just them Making more and more money at everybody else's, at teh planet's expense, well there is no reason for it.
I am on holiday at the moment and have realised that it is not only our country that needs Corbyn, but Europe and the world does too. Europe needs to look at Corbyn and reject Merkel and the Germans and build fairer societies themselves. It has to start somewhere. This bloody hero of a man, sorry but that is how I feel about him, was allowed to slip into leader of the Labour party because the establishment (they control the Labour party too) didn't realise he was a threat. We have a window of opportunity to try to sort the mess this this world is. If it isn't this election, hoepfully it will be the next one.
I would like to know why I got flagged for basically being offended that a post was on here aimed at a group I find myself in - saying fuck them.
I say fuck off back and all of a sudden that's not all right.
The Labour bias on this forum is getting crazy
Just ignore them, lots of deluded Labour supporters on here recently.
I'm very much one for promoting vote for who you wish etc., but when any party's supporters lie and then hate on others based on these lies it really pisses me off. They all seem to think Labour winning would create some equality utopia, forgetting that the privatisation of the NHS began under their lovely Labour, that expenses scandels were also done by Labour MPs. I do admit that this desire for equality 'they' are always claiming they support ('they' being the MPs and party leaders), is more realistic under Corbyn, but we all know their MPs won't back him fully. All the planned spending they claim they'll achieve from higher taxes to the rich will drive rich business away, thus actually making us all poorer.
Before the flags role in for hating on Labour, I'm not a hardline supporter for any party and I vote for who's the best at the time (baffles me that so many people can live their lives voting for the same party all the time).
I disagree with a lot of this, but I will take you to task on this much repeated, evidence free mantra.
Think about it, rich bloke owns Mr Green's Emporium, they make £100000 profit, they pay no tax on it. Then someone says, you are going to pay £40000 tax. Rich bloke says - right I am going to give up that £60000 I am still going to be left with, I am going to lose all the infrastructure I have put in place building up Mr Green's Emporium, all the cost of shopfitting, training and recruiting. I am going to leave my house, take my kids out of school, take my wife away from her family and friends, and start again elsewhere and learn a foreign language to do so.
Now, I appreciate that business can take it's tax liability somewhere else, something that would need to be dealt with, but at the top of every business are human beings (mostly), and you know what, many of them love living in the UK, they could live anywhere, but they choose to live in relatively civilised country with a lot going for it. They and their wives have families who cannot move with them, they have friendships and leisure activities that they enjoy in the area where they live. A tiny percentage would move away, and you know what else - someone else would take their place. "Mr Green's Emporium is closing. He makes huge profits - lets take on the business and make some money ourselves...".
Also, if they are paying no tax anyway, pretending to live abroad, making out they are based in the Cayman Islands, the UK taxpayer is already missing out on massive income anyway, so fuck 'em, like I said, someone else will take their place. Rothermere isn't going to close the Daily Mail ( what a wonderful thing that would be...) if he suddenly finds he has to pay £100m on his £1b fortune, he can still afford to have his balls polished by a supermodel every morning.
I'm not particularly politically motivated and live in a dead safe Tory seat but watched the debate with interest yesterday and I have to admit that Corbyn came across well particularly with the studio audience whereas May was clearly uncomfortable. I think the odds are still on a Tory win but it is not the foregone conclusion many including me thought and the last 2 weeks could be key. My only other comment on last nights debate was just how awful Jeremy Paxman was, constantly interrupting both May and Corbyn and not allowing them to answer the questions he should retire if that is the best he can do.
I'm not particularly politically motivated and live in a dead safe Tory seat but watched the debate with interest yesterday and I have to admit that Corbyn came across well particularly with the studio audience whereas May was clearly uncomfortable. I think the odds are still on a Tory win but it is not the foregone conclusion many including me thought and the last 2 weeks could be key. My only other comment on last nights debate was just how awful Jeremy Paxman was, constantly interrupting both May and Corbyn and not allowing them to answer the questions he should retire if that is the best he can do.
Paxman has become a bit of a parody of himself - he feels he has to live up to his "tough questioning" reputation but goes too far now.
I'm not particularly politically motivated and live in a dead safe Tory seat but watched the debate with interest yesterday and I have to admit that Corbyn came across well particularly with the studio audience whereas May was clearly uncomfortable. I think the odds are still on a Tory win but it is not the foregone conclusion many including me thought and the last 2 weeks could be key. My only other comment on last nights debate was just how awful Jeremy Paxman was, constantly interrupting both May and Corbyn and not allowing them to answer the questions he should retire if that is the best he can do.
Paxman asked some good questions but then asked another one straight away meeting the interviewee got away with no answering them. Seems to be more interested in making them uncomfortable than getting them to say something silly.
I'm not particularly politically motivated and live in a dead safe Tory seat but watched the debate with interest yesterday and I have to admit that Corbyn came across well particularly with the studio audience whereas May was clearly uncomfortable. I think the odds are still on a Tory win but it is not the foregone conclusion many including me thought and the last 2 weeks could be key. My only other comment on last nights debate was just how awful Jeremy Paxman was, constantly interrupting both May and Corbyn and not allowing them to answer the questions he should retire if that is the best he can do.
I agree, Paxman should have left his ego at the door, the bloke was toe curlingly embarrassing. May was appalling, gave no answers to any of the Q's by the audience. Traditionally I am a Labour voter, But have struggled with Corbyn on a number of issues, IRA/Trident/Immigration/economy/taxation, however as well as doing some internet digging and looking at independent websites, I got good honest answers from him last night so Labour will get my X. After watching that last night I dont know how anyone can vote Tory, unless they earn serious money and/or eat kittens for breakfast. Teresa's Tories have zero substance, they have based their election campaign on just attacking Corbyn ably assisted by the tory press.
I understand that the Scottish Nationalists are launching their manifesto today. However. Theirs is not the only one. You may not agree with everything in this one, but...
I understand that the Scottish Nationalists are launching their manifesto today. However. Theirs is not the only one. You may not agree with everything in this one, but...
Atheism will be given charity status being a non-prophet organization. In the interests of health and safety all other theism’s will loose charity status and be regulated by their local authority.
'The Loony Party is preparing for Government – these are our candidates!
The Howling ‘Laud – Maidenhead Nigel Knapp – Islington North Chinners – Kingston and Surbiton Baron Badger – Walton and Esher The Iconic Arty Pole – Louth and Horncastle The Good Knight Sir Nosdar – Aldridge and Brownhills Baron Von Thunderclap – Mid Sussex Mad Mike Young – Sittingbourne and Sheppey The Mid Bed Minx – Mid Bedforshire George Ridgeon – Gloucester Sir Dudley the Crazed – Ceredigeon Wales Farmin Lord Dave 1st of Haughton – Denton and Reddish'
I wasn't that impressed with Corbyn as some were last night. It seems, like with Trump, everybody is lowering the bar. But in that interview on woman's hour he really comes across as not very bright and woefully incompetent. But, hey, it got Trump elected!
Oops! Corbyn has just had a car crash on woman's hour!
On free childcare cost;
"EB: How much will it cost?
JC: Er, it will cost, er. It will obviously cost a lot, we accept that.
EB: You presumany have the figures?
JC: Yes, I do.
EB: So how much will it cost?
JC: I’ll give you the figure in a moment.
EB: You don’t know it.
JC: Er…
EB: You’re logging into your iPad here. You’re announcing a major policy. and you don’t know how much it will cost?
JC: Can I give you the exact figure in a moment?
EB: You’re holding your manifesto, you’re flicking through it, you’ve got an iPad there, you’ve had a phone call while you’re in here, and yet you don’t know how much it’s going to cost.
JC: Can we come back to that in a moment?
EB: This is a policy you’re launching this morning.
JC: I think what is important for voters to understand is that if we don’t invest in our children they do less well in primary school. less well in secondary school. less will in the future.
EB: But you don’t know the cost?
JC: I want to give you an accurate figure.
EB: This is a very expensive policy. Mr Corbyn. I’m going to help you out with the figures. Would you like to hear how much it’s going to cost?
JC: What we think is, it’s important to invest for the whole community and collect the money back through taxation on the principle of universalism.
EB: Would you like to know how much your policy is going to cost, Mr Corbyn?
JC: What is your estimate of it?
EB: Well. it‘s actually from Angela Rayner, your shadow education secretary. £2.7billion, and then £4.8billion. With half a billion to reverse the cuts to the Sure Start scheme. Does that sound about right?
So, rather than lying a la Hammond or Fallon, or completely fucking up a la Abbott he chose to delay to try and get the figures right?!
Or, am I missing something?
Sounds like the interviewer was far more interested in showing how clever they were than anything else. I'm pretty sure in the past politicians would have had printed or written notes, but some how referring to actual figures on paper (or on screen) is somehow not allowed anymore and something to be attacked, whilst the alternative of trying to store figures for every possible question in your head just opens you up to attacks if you can't remember everything exactly. Being set up to fail seems to be the modern interview technique.
I wonder if Emma Barnett is so keen to attack the Tories on the numbers they haven't released as she seems to be to attack Labour on the numbers they have?
So, rather than lying a la Hammond or Fallon, or completely fucking up a la Abbott he chose to delay to try and get the figures right?!
Or, am I missing something?
When announcing a new policy I'd imagine it's pretty standard practice to have written down key numbers and figures. God knows why the majority of these muppets don't!
'The Loony Party is preparing for Government – these are our candidates!
The Howling ‘Laud – Maidenhead Nigel Knapp – Islington North Chinners – Kingston and Surbiton Baron Badger – Walton and Esher The Iconic Arty Pole – Louth and Horncastle The Good Knight Sir Nosdar – Aldridge and Brownhills Baron Von Thunderclap – Mid Sussex Mad Mike Young – Sittingbourne and Sheppey The Mid Bed Minx – Mid Bedforshire George Ridgeon – Gloucester Sir Dudley the Crazed – Ceredigeon Wales Farmin Lord Dave 1st of Haughton – Denton and Reddish'
Could hold the balance of power, theoretically.
For all the thought out crazy names in there, 'Chinners' is by far my favourite.
Well I seem to have confused you, and I always believe that if that happens it's my fault, so I'll try and clear things up.
Hatton, as your own post illustrated described, is the kind of dangerous hard-left person that used the Labour Party to gain power in the 80s. And by the way, it looks like you should try to watch Alan Bleasdale's GBH. It remains one of my favourite BBC dramas ever, and was clearly about Hatton in Liverpool although that was never overtly stated. Robert Lindsey as the Hatton character gives one of the finest sustained acting portrayals I have ever seen. Watch it, for pleasure.
Neil Kinnock is not hard left, I agree. I voted for him, twice. He knew that he would never get anywhere unless he cut out the cancer of the hard left from Labour membership. I have found the speech at the Labour conference it was actually 1985. One of the most thrilling, tension -filled political speeches of my adult lifetime. As I tried to explain, had Kinnock not made that speech, and started the process of cutting Militant out of Labour, 1997 would never have happened. Take a look.
I believe that
1. Corbyn did not support Kinnock's speech (although i cannot, right now provide evidence of that). Nor, I believe did Abbott or McDonnell.
2. For "Militant" read "Momentum"
However all that said, I will be voting Labour for the first time in 25 years on June 9. And while I am doing that despite Corbyn, I though he was decent last night and I feel better about my choice with every passing day.
Comments
I decided he didn't have charisma (not that it should be important) but he has bagsof it. I decided he wasn't a statemen, but a little research of his past speeches on You Tube have definitely moved me. The establishment don't want a better world for everybody - just them Making more and more money at everybody else's, at teh planet's expense, well there is no reason for it.
I am on holiday at the moment and have realised that it is not only our country that needs Corbyn, but Europe and the world does too. Europe needs to look at Corbyn and reject Merkel and the Germans and build fairer societies themselves. It has to start somewhere. This bloody hero of a man, sorry but that is how I feel about him, was allowed to slip into leader of the Labour party because the establishment (they control the Labour party too) didn't realise he was a threat. We have a window of opportunity to try to sort the mess this this world is. If it isn't this election, hoepfully it will be the next one.
Ah vino
Think about it, rich bloke owns Mr Green's Emporium, they make £100000 profit, they pay no tax on it. Then someone says, you are going to pay £40000 tax. Rich bloke says - right I am going to give up that £60000 I am still going to be left with, I am going to lose all the infrastructure I have put in place building up Mr Green's Emporium, all the cost of shopfitting, training and recruiting. I am going to leave my house, take my kids out of school, take my wife away from her family and friends, and start again elsewhere and learn a foreign language to do so.
Now, I appreciate that business can take it's tax liability somewhere else, something that would need to be dealt with, but at the top of every business are human beings (mostly), and you know what, many of them love living in the UK, they could live anywhere, but they choose to live in relatively civilised country with a lot going for it. They and their wives have families who cannot move with them, they have friendships and leisure activities that they enjoy in the area where they live. A tiny percentage would move away, and you know what else - someone else would take their place. "Mr Green's Emporium is closing. He makes huge profits - lets take on the business and make some money ourselves...".
Also, if they are paying no tax anyway, pretending to live abroad, making out they are based in the Cayman Islands, the UK taxpayer is already missing out on massive income anyway, so fuck 'em, like I said, someone else will take their place. Rothermere isn't going to close the Daily Mail ( what a wonderful thing that would be...) if he suddenly finds he has to pay £100m on his £1b fortune, he can still afford to have his balls polished by a supermodel every morning.
May was appalling, gave no answers to any of the Q's by the audience.
Traditionally I am a Labour voter, But have struggled with Corbyn on a number of issues, IRA/Trident/Immigration/economy/taxation, however as well as doing some internet digging and looking at independent websites, I got good honest answers from him last night so Labour will get my X.
After watching that last night I dont know how anyone can vote Tory, unless they earn serious money and/or eat kittens for breakfast. Teresa's Tories have zero substance, they have based their election campaign on just attacking Corbyn ably assisted by the tory press.
However.
Theirs is not the only one.
You may not agree with everything in this one, but...
http://www.loonyparty.com/
Religion
Atheism will be given charity status being a non-prophet organization. In the interests of health and safety all other theism’s will loose charity status and be regulated by their local authority.
The Howling ‘Laud – Maidenhead
Nigel Knapp – Islington North
Chinners – Kingston and Surbiton
Baron Badger – Walton and Esher
The Iconic Arty Pole – Louth and Horncastle
The Good Knight Sir Nosdar – Aldridge and Brownhills
Baron Von Thunderclap – Mid Sussex
Mad Mike Young – Sittingbourne and Sheppey
The Mid Bed Minx – Mid Bedforshire
George Ridgeon – Gloucester
Sir Dudley the Crazed – Ceredigeon Wales
Farmin Lord Dave 1st of Haughton – Denton and Reddish'
Could hold the balance of power, theoretically.
"Tories and Labour not being honest with voters: IFS"
So Conservatives will continue the status quo pretty much meaning likely risks to the quality of public services and the lower earners.
Labour just needs to find a lot more money from somewhere!
No great shock there then.
"EB: How much will it cost?
JC: Er, it will cost, er. It will obviously cost a lot, we accept that.
EB: You presumany have the figures?
JC: Yes, I do.
EB: So how much will it cost?
JC: I’ll give you the figure in a moment.
EB: You don’t know it.
JC: Er…
EB: You’re logging into your iPad here. You’re announcing a major policy. and you don’t know how much it will cost?
JC: Can I give you the exact figure in a moment?
EB: You’re holding your manifesto, you’re flicking through it, you’ve got an iPad there, you’ve had a phone call while you’re in here, and yet you don’t know how much it’s going to cost.
JC: Can we come back to that in a moment?
EB: This is a policy you’re launching this morning.
JC: I think what is important for voters to understand is that if we don’t invest in our children they do less well in primary school. less well in secondary school. less will in the future.
EB: But you don’t know the cost?
JC: I want to give you an accurate figure.
EB: This is a very expensive policy. Mr Corbyn. I’m going to help you out with the figures. Would you like to hear how much it’s going to cost?
JC: What we think is, it’s important to invest for the whole community and collect the money back through taxation on the principle of universalism.
EB: Would you like to know how much your policy is going to cost, Mr Corbyn?
JC: What is your estimate of it?
EB: Well. it‘s actually from Angela Rayner, your shadow education secretary. £2.7billion, and then £4.8billion. With half
a billion to reverse the cuts to the Sure Start scheme. Does that sound about right?
JC: It does sound correct…"
Ouch......
Or, am I missing something?
I wonder if Emma Barnett is so keen to attack the Tories on the numbers they haven't released as she seems to be to attack Labour on the numbers they have?
As above, you'd think these politicians would know their numbers, if I went to a meeting at work & didn't know my numbers I'd equally be shot down.
Well I seem to have confused you, and I always believe that if that happens it's my fault, so I'll try and clear things up.
Hatton, as your own post illustrated described, is the kind of dangerous hard-left person that used the Labour Party to gain power in the 80s. And by the way, it looks like you should try to watch Alan Bleasdale's GBH. It remains one of my favourite BBC dramas ever, and was clearly about Hatton in Liverpool although that was never overtly stated. Robert Lindsey as the Hatton character gives one of the finest sustained acting portrayals I have ever seen. Watch it, for pleasure.
Neil Kinnock is not hard left, I agree. I voted for him, twice. He knew that he would never get anywhere unless he cut out the cancer of the hard left from Labour membership. I have found the speech at the Labour conference it was actually 1985. One of the most thrilling, tension -filled political speeches of my adult lifetime. As I tried to explain, had Kinnock not made that speech, and started the process of cutting Militant out of Labour, 1997 would never have happened. Take a look.
I believe that
1. Corbyn did not support Kinnock's speech (although i cannot, right now provide evidence of that). Nor, I believe did Abbott or McDonnell.
2. For "Militant" read "Momentum"
However all that said, I will be voting Labour for the first time in 25 years on June 9. And while I am doing that despite Corbyn, I though he was decent last night and I feel better about my choice with every passing day.