I remember someone (Red_in_SE8 ?) suggesting that the troll whose name I can't remember who immediately vanished from this site post referendum was a paid employee of some leave supporting group. I thought at the time it was fanciful but I wonder.
Was this vibrant and lively forum discussion picked up by online data scanning and targeted ?
Charlton 1969, I think.
Very odd intervention, wasn't it?
I've got my doubts about the motives of another regular visitor, but cannot prove anything. Knowing what I know about Russian backed intervention in Czech social media - it is far more brazen than in the UK - I think we are right to be watchful.
You had him sussed fairly early on @PragueAddick. However, he did sometimes post the occasional gem amongst the piles of dross.
Spill the beans on who else you believe is a plant?
I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish
I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.
It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.
None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.
We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.
The echo chamber mentality and the fact that people rarely discuss politics face-to-face anymore means people become more resilient to facts that challenge their views and instead only imbibe opinions and mantras that reinforce their beliefs. This does go both ways for both Labour and Tories, and indeed for pro and anti Corbyn Labour voters as well.
I believe the reason why people really don't want to discuss politics face-to-face anymore is because as soon as you let slip you have conservative views and opinions people are quick to start labelling you an uncaring, selfish, heartless, homophobic racist who cares nothing for the NHS and all you want to do is shaft the poor people whilst doffing your cap to the bankers and filthy rich.
Funnily enough, the Tory party does have supporters who don't have any of those views.
The above is all according to a quick Google. Sorry to say I don't actually know these things for myself. And sorry if I've posted any incorrect info. I did do my best to double check.
The above is all according to a quick Google. Sorry to say I don't actually know these things for myself. And sorry if I've posted any incorrect info. I did do my best to double check.
Thanks for that. I suspect the centre in different countries varies! The democrats in the US probably to the right of the Norwegian right wing party for example
I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish
I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.
It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.
None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.
We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.
The echo chamber mentality and the fact that people rarely discuss politics face-to-face anymore means people become more resilient to facts that challenge their views and instead only imbibe opinions and mantras that reinforce their beliefs. This does go both ways for both Labour and Tories, and indeed for pro and anti Corbyn Labour voters as well.
I believe the reason why people really don't want to discuss politics face-to-face anymore is because as soon as you let slip you have conservative views and opinions people are quick to start labelling you an uncaring, selfish, heartless, homophobic racist who cares nothing for the NHS and all you want to do is shaft the poor people whilst doffing your cap to the bankers and filthy rich.
Funnily enough, the Tory party does have supporters who don't have any of those views.
The Tory party has members and elected representatives who do not have any of those views.
In fact, for the most part, most Tory voters are not voting because they want a privatised NHS, a reduced police service or armed forces, worse schools or for homeless people and the disabled to be put at further risk, or for care homes to be managed by profiteering charlatans who employ ex-cons to assault the frail and mentally ill. Tories, in general, are suspicious of 'big government', believe private enterprise is more efficient than government-run services, believe society and charity should be doing more of the third-sector work than the government and that choice should be available even when the government already provides a basic service (e.g. the NHS and private health, state and private education etc.). And, of course, low taxes and the ability for people to keep as much of their wealth as possible, even if they have more than they can possibly spend. Tory voters are no more or less selfish than Labour voters, they just believe that the government is worse at running the services they need than private companies, or that they are better able to spend their money than the government is.
Lambasting all Tory politicians and Tory voters in the same breath as 'Tories' and calling them heartless bastards is immensely unhelpful and profoundly untrue. There are lots of reasons why people might vote Tory. I imagine voters in Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Warwickshire and East Sussex, all council gains by the Tories this week, all had profoundly different reasons for voting Tory. I also imagine none of those reasons were because those people consciously want standards to get worse or for the most vulnerable to suffer more, even though those are the direct consequences of Tory power.
You can imagine where I live there are plenty of people willing to espouse conservative views face-to-face with little fear of rebuttal from a Labour supporter. A look at my social media feed, if I discounted all the people who grew up outside of Kent, it would definitely be a Tory echo chamber. On a daily basis I am subjected to a wide array of views from the far left (extremist Corbynistas who denounce all those who do not vote Corbyn as fascists) to the far right (anti-EU, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, Theresa May not doing a quick enough job of kicking out all of the bloody foreigners). Generally all these views come from people around my age. I remember during the last election cycle, a month before polling day I was sharing a few pints with a friend for his birthday and one of his friends who I had only met a couple of times piped up about the effing Tories under the assumption that everyone there was going to vote Labour, or at least vote for the party that had the best chance of beating the Tories. I politely informed him that I was voting Tory and he was taken aback, probably because why was I friends with his friends when I held such hateful views. Within two minutes I had convinced him that I was neither a racist, a homophobe or someone who hated poor people or public services but just what I believed to be the best way forward. But encounters like this are rare. Most people are usually pretty unwilling to talk politics because they want to avoid confrontations of either side, although in my experience I have found a left-leaning person is more likely to open up a political discussion than a right-leaning person, whereas a right-leaning person is less likely to state their views unless they believe they are in a safe space. This is likely due to, as you said, the fact that they do not want to be accosted for their views when they just want to have a pint or a friendly chat. I think another reason, in some cases, is that some people don't want to have to think too hard about why they hold those views because when people are bombarded by headlines, talking points and factoids on a daily basis, it forms their opinions subconsciously but if they want to rationalise their opinion directly, it is difficult as there is not a coherent thread of thought that led them to form that opinion, only thousands of bullet-points that have been drip-fed to them over the years.
This is partly the reason, I believe, why the Remain campaign was at a massive disadvantage during the referendum; they only had a few months to undo the damage done by over 40 years of anti-EU propaganda drip-fed to the population by the media and by populist politicians. It is almost impossible to convince a group of people that a belief they have spent 40 years being convinced is true is actually false.
I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish
I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.
It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.
None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.
We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.
The echo chamber mentality and the fact that people rarely discuss politics face-to-face anymore means people become more resilient to facts that challenge their views and instead only imbibe opinions and mantras that reinforce their beliefs. This does go both ways for both Labour and Tories, and indeed for pro and anti Corbyn Labour voters as well.
I believe the reason why people really don't want to discuss politics face-to-face anymore is because as soon as you let slip you have conservative views and opinions people are quick to start labelling you an uncaring, selfish, heartless, homophobic racist who cares nothing for the NHS and all you want to do is shaft the poor people whilst doffing your cap to the bankers and filthy rich.
Funnily enough, the Tory party does have supporters who don't have any of those views.
The Tory party has members and elected representatives who do not have any of those views.
In fact, for the most part, most Tory voters are not voting because they want a privatised NHS, a reduced police service or armed forces, worse schools or for homeless people and the disabled to be put at further risk, or for care homes to be managed by profiteering charlatans who employ ex-cons to assault the frail and mentally ill. Tories, in general, are suspicious of 'big government', believe private enterprise is more efficient than government-run services, believe society and charity should be doing more of the third-sector work than the government and that choice should be available even when the government already provides a basic service (e.g. the NHS and private health, state and private education etc.). And, of course, low taxes and the ability for people to keep as much of their wealth as possible, even if they have more than they can possibly spend. Tory voters are no more or less selfish than Labour voters, they just believe that the government is worse at running the services they need than private companies, or that they are better able to spend their money than the government is.
Lambasting all Tory politicians and Tory voters in the same breath as 'Tories' and calling them heartless bastards is immensely unhelpful and profoundly untrue. There are lots of reasons why people might vote Tory. I imagine voters in Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Warwickshire and East Sussex, all council gains by the Tories this week, all had profoundly different reasons for voting Tory. I also imagine none of those reasons were because those people consciously want standards to get worse or for the most vulnerable to suffer more, even though those are the direct consequences of Tory power.
You can imagine where I live there are plenty of people willing to espouse conservative views face-to-face with little fear of rebuttal from a Labour supporter. A look at my social media feed, if I discounted all the people who grew up outside of Kent, it would definitely be a Tory echo chamber. On a daily basis I am subjected to a wide array of views from the far left (extremist Corbynistas who denounce all those who do not vote Corbyn as fascists) to the far right (anti-EU, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, Theresa May not doing a quick enough job of kicking out all of the bloody foreigners). Generally all these views come from people around my age. I remember during the last election cycle, a month before polling day I was sharing a few pints with a friend for his birthday and one of his friends who I had only met a couple of times piped up about the effing Tories under the assumption that everyone there was going to vote Labour, or at least vote for the party that had the best chance of beating the Tories. I politely informed him that I was voting Tory and he was taken aback, probably because why was I friends with his friends when I held such hateful views. Within two minutes I had convinced him that I was neither a racist, a homophobe or someone who hated poor people or public services but just what I believed to be the best way forward. But encounters like this are rare. Most people are usually pretty unwilling to talk politics because they want to avoid confrontations of either side, although in my experience I have found a left-leaning person is more likely to open up a political discussion than a right-leaning person, whereas a right-leaning person is less likely to state their views unless they believe they are in a safe space. This is likely due to, as you said, the fact that they do not want to be accosted for their views when they just want to have a pint or a friendly chat. I think another reason, in some cases, is that some people don't want to have to think too hard about why they hold those views because when people are bombarded by headlines, talking points and factoids on a daily basis, it forms their opinions subconsciously but if they want to rationalise their opinion directly, it is difficult as there is not a coherent thread of thought that led them to form that opinion, only thousands of bullet-points that have been drip-fed to them over the years.
I do find it amazing that the Tories have a run away lead in the opinion polls and seem to be increasing their share of the vote across the board, yet some very valid points are being made as to their failings - yet none of it seems to have the desired effect in changing the views of the 'silent majority' - with the exception of @Fiiish
I think what we are seeing is our old friend Confirmation Bias at work.
It doesn't matter that we've had 7 years of austerity that has failed to eliminate the deficit, all our public services systematically being dismantled, 100,000"s public sector jobs going, our health and care system teetering on collapse, our prisons on the point of exploding, our police struggling to cope with fewer and fewer officers, weak if any economic growth, stagnant wages and the rise of zero hours contracts, massive rises in homelessness and people unable to put a meal in front of their children without charit, our armed forces struggling to properly equip fewer personnel and much more.
None of that matters and it does not have any effect how many charts and graphs or graphics or statistical analysis you back your point up with if the facts don't fit the recipients existing theory. We are conditioned to ignore or denigrate facts that challenge our accepted wisdom.
We've all got it to one extent or another of course and yes, it does cut the other way too of course.
The echo chamber mentality and the fact that people rarely discuss politics face-to-face anymore means people become more resilient to facts that challenge their views and instead only imbibe opinions and mantras that reinforce their beliefs. This does go both ways for both Labour and Tories, and indeed for pro and anti Corbyn Labour voters as well.
I believe the reason why people really don't want to discuss politics face-to-face anymore is because as soon as you let slip you have conservative views and opinions people are quick to start labelling you an uncaring, selfish, heartless, homophobic racist who cares nothing for the NHS and all you want to do is shaft the poor people whilst doffing your cap to the bankers and filthy rich.
Funnily enough, the Tory party does have supporters who don't have any of those views.
I have known a number of 'One Nation' Tories who I agreed with almost everything on and vice versa. Sadly their voice seems to have been drowned out of the modern Conservative Party. They need a PR system every bit as much as the left does.
What the Labour is advocating is not real socialism, it's pockets of socialism funded by capitalism.
Obviously out and out socialism would bankrupt the country.
No party is proposing a pure ideology. Pure capitalism doesn't work, and once you start regulating then it's not pure capitalism any more.
We exist in a capitalist society with socialist pockets. Even the US, which we can all agree is further to the right than here has socialist roads, schools, police, fire service, national parks, life guard, military, etc. etc.
The question then is not one of capitalism vs socialism, it's what you think the correct balance is. I think if you sat down with the vast majority of people and explained what they get, what they lose and what it costs, most would be in a very narrow band around what we consider a centrist position. What's happening at the moment is labour is espousing a position to far to the left for most, and the tories are using this to get through stuff that is further to the right than the majority would probably like.
After over a decade of the tories previously and without the charisma of Thatcher to cover that, the country correctly move left, but only to a centrist position from the right wing position the country has gradually move to. The weird thing is we didn't swing far left under labour, but with a world wide recession, unpopular labour leader and right wing media pushing the provably false "tories == economic safe hand" angle, we swung back right, initially not far under Cameron, but further right since the rise of UKIP and now May and her cohorts.
I think we'll see a swing back to the centre sooner than last time, but only if a viable centre/centre-left party rises and labour currently isn't that party.
Just seen report on the latest ONS statistics on household incomes.
Working earnings of the poorest fifth households before tax and benefits was £7,153 per household (an increase of 16.4%) with an additional £7,612 of cash benefits being given to cover housing, tax credits, pensions and other support, giving average total income before tax of £14,765 per household in that category.
The official figures for the same category shows state benefits, including education and healthcare, amount to £15,198 p.a. per household.
Average wages increased by 1.8% above inflation.
Unemployment fell from 5.6% to 5.1%. (5% is reckoned to be the lowest figure an economy can expect to reach if there is a turnover of businesses failing and being created)
The value of benefits in kind - education and healthcare was valued at £7,586 p.a per household across the board.
The inequality gap closed marginally, higher earners still enjoyed increased wages and benefits with the highest earners now earning 12 times the lowest earners, the ratio having previously been 14:1.
Nothing to crow about, but is there really enough there that fits the picture of the poor being deliberately ground into the dirt by the government. Is it better or worse than 10 years ago?
Were these figures published by Lewis Carroll?
No Office of National Statistics. Apart from being facts that don't conform to your confirmation bias, what's the problem, .
Comments
Funnily enough, the Tory party does have supporters who don't have any of those views.
The current Prime Minister of Norway is from the Conservative Party (elected in 2013 following a Labour Party Prime Minister).
The current Prime Minister of Denmark is from a centre-right liberal party called Venstre.
The current Prime Minister of Finland is from a centrist liberal party called, funnily enough, the Centre Party.
In fact, for the most part, most Tory voters are not voting because they want a privatised NHS, a reduced police service or armed forces, worse schools or for homeless people and the disabled to be put at further risk, or for care homes to be managed by profiteering charlatans who employ ex-cons to assault the frail and mentally ill. Tories, in general, are suspicious of 'big government', believe private enterprise is more efficient than government-run services, believe society and charity should be doing more of the third-sector work than the government and that choice should be available even when the government already provides a basic service (e.g. the NHS and private health, state and private education etc.). And, of course, low taxes and the ability for people to keep as much of their wealth as possible, even if they have more than they can possibly spend. Tory voters are no more or less selfish than Labour voters, they just believe that the government is worse at running the services they need than private companies, or that they are better able to spend their money than the government is.
Lambasting all Tory politicians and Tory voters in the same breath as 'Tories' and calling them heartless bastards is immensely unhelpful and profoundly untrue. There are lots of reasons why people might vote Tory. I imagine voters in Lancashire, Lincolnshire, Warwickshire and East Sussex, all council gains by the Tories this week, all had profoundly different reasons for voting Tory. I also imagine none of those reasons were because those people consciously want standards to get worse or for the most vulnerable to suffer more, even though those are the direct consequences of Tory power.
You can imagine where I live there are plenty of people willing to espouse conservative views face-to-face with little fear of rebuttal from a Labour supporter. A look at my social media feed, if I discounted all the people who grew up outside of Kent, it would definitely be a Tory echo chamber. On a daily basis I am subjected to a wide array of views from the far left (extremist Corbynistas who denounce all those who do not vote Corbyn as fascists) to the far right (anti-EU, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, Theresa May not doing a quick enough job of kicking out all of the bloody foreigners). Generally all these views come from people around my age. I remember during the last election cycle, a month before polling day I was sharing a few pints with a friend for his birthday and one of his friends who I had only met a couple of times piped up about the effing Tories under the assumption that everyone there was going to vote Labour, or at least vote for the party that had the best chance of beating the Tories. I politely informed him that I was voting Tory and he was taken aback, probably because why was I friends with his friends when I held such hateful views. Within two minutes I had convinced him that I was neither a racist, a homophobe or someone who hated poor people or public services but just what I believed to be the best way forward. But encounters like this are rare. Most people are usually pretty unwilling to talk politics because they want to avoid confrontations of either side, although in my experience I have found a left-leaning person is more likely to open up a political discussion than a right-leaning person, whereas a right-leaning person is less likely to state their views unless they believe they are in a safe space. This is likely due to, as you said, the fact that they do not want to be accosted for their views when they just want to have a pint or a friendly chat. I think another reason, in some cases, is that some people don't want to have to think too hard about why they hold those views because when people are bombarded by headlines, talking points and factoids on a daily basis, it forms their opinions subconsciously but if they want to rationalise their opinion directly, it is difficult as there is not a coherent thread of thought that led them to form that opinion, only thousands of bullet-points that have been drip-fed to them over the years.
This is partly the reason, I believe, why the Remain campaign was at a massive disadvantage during the referendum; they only had a few months to undo the damage done by over 40 years of anti-EU propaganda drip-fed to the population by the media and by populist politicians. It is almost impossible to convince a group of people that a belief they have spent 40 years being convinced is true is actually false.
People need to understand this before they start talking about socialism.
Obviously out and out socialism would bankrupt the country.
We exist in a capitalist society with socialist pockets. Even the US, which we can all agree is further to the right than here has socialist roads, schools, police, fire service, national parks, life guard, military, etc. etc.
The question then is not one of capitalism vs socialism, it's what you think the correct balance is. I think if you sat down with the vast majority of people and explained what they get, what they lose and what it costs, most would be in a very narrow band around what we consider a centrist position. What's happening at the moment is labour is espousing a position to far to the left for most, and the tories are using this to get through stuff that is further to the right than the majority would probably like.
After over a decade of the tories previously and without the charisma of Thatcher to cover that, the country correctly move left, but only to a centrist position from the right wing position the country has gradually move to. The weird thing is we didn't swing far left under labour, but with a world wide recession, unpopular labour leader and right wing media pushing the provably false "tories == economic safe hand" angle, we swung back right, initially not far under Cameron, but further right since the rise of UKIP and now May and her cohorts.
I think we'll see a swing back to the centre sooner than last time, but only if a viable centre/centre-left party rises and labour currently isn't that party.
Vive la France!
Or 3.14?
Is there something special about him, or is it that he is kind of taint free?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2016#main-points