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The General Election - June 8th 2017

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  • David Miliband, are you watching? If Macron can do it from obscurity in 12 months? Your country needs you to step up!

    Yup - as bastardly fake as Blair - no question.
    Anything for a vote. Labour values? Who cares? Just give me the power.


    ''Ed Miliband's 'grass roots' mowing picture was just a PR stunt, angry homeowner claims''
  • Fiiish said:

    Socialism =/= Communism

    People need to understand this before they start talking about socialism.

    Momentum seem to be the bastard child of both.

  • Lies damn lies and statistics. If you beleive that average wages have increased by 1.8% let alone 1.8% above inflation, you are truely deluded. Perhaps your stats take into account boardroom pay which has rocketed. Can't be arsed to disect the rest of your hand picked imaginings.
  • Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Why exactly is David Miliband the prince over the water?
    Is there something special about him, or is it that he is kind of taint free?

    He's the only likeable and electable Labour MP we have had since Blair.
    Andy Burnham?
  • Lies damn lies and statistics. If you beleive that average wages have increased by 1.8% let alone 1.8% above inflation, you are truely deluded. Perhaps your stats take into account boardroom pay which has rocketed. Can't be arsed to disect the rest of your hand picked imaginings.

    The interesting word is 'earnings'. How many hours per week, how much holiday, pension, benefits etc. are the employer giving?
  • Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Why exactly is David Miliband the prince over the water?
    Is there something special about him, or is it that he is kind of taint free?

    He's the only likeable and electable Labour MP we have had since Blair.
    Andy Burnham?
    He came second to Corbyn and grates with Southerners. I like the bloke but not sure how well he would have done if he won the leadership.
  • David Miliband, are you watching? If Macron can do it from obscurity in 12 months? Your country needs you to step up!

    Yup - as bastardly fake as Blair - no question.
    Anything for a vote. Labour values? Who cares? Just give me the power.


    ''Ed Miliband's 'grass roots' mowing picture was just a PR stunt, angry homeowner claims''
    Yeah...you will never see a Tory leader adopt a completely contrarian point of view from one minute to the next just to achieve power. Oh...wait a minute...did the lying obnoxious May once campaign for Remain?
    So sorry, thought this was a Milliband thing, but the usual 'likers' prefer your deflection.

    I thought we'd already agreed that May can be classed as 'evil'
    And that we were now discussing the sad tactics of Milliband, but apparantley we can diss the tories but never the same two face bastards wearing a different rosette.

    So tediously obvious and predictable.
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  • edited May 2017

    Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Why exactly is David Miliband the prince over the water?
    Is there something special about him, or is it that he is kind of taint free?

    He's the only likeable and electable Labour MP we have had since Blair.
    Andy Burnham?
    Never really seemed to step out of the shadows in the leadership contest, but he is very well liked and admired. Time is on his side and I don't think it is the last we have seen of him. I think he made a smart move with moving into local government. If he can make something of Manchester he can return to the fold after standing on his own two feet.

    As to Miliband, I think he was our youngest foreign secretary and proved quite competent. He has a credibility in offices that few from those days retained and one Corbyn never can have. He has gone on to successfully run a giant NGO that does amazing work. Unlike so many in the house, he has actually gone out in to the world. Exactly what we should look for in our politicians.

    But why the hell would he want to come back after the way the PLP has behaved for the last two years, a certain proportion of the electorate will judge his abilities on the way he holds a banana and he is increadibly successful now?
  • David Miliband, are you watching? If Macron can do it from obscurity in 12 months? Your country needs you to step up!

    Yup - as bastardly fake as Blair - no question.
    Anything for a vote. Labour values? Who cares? Just give me the power.


    ''Ed Miliband's 'grass roots' mowing picture was just a PR stunt, angry homeowner claims''
    Yeah...you will never see a Tory leader adopt a completely contrarian point of view from one minute to the next just to achieve power. Oh...wait a minute...did the lying obnoxious May once campaign for Remain?
    I'd book a series of therapy sessions if I were you Red. You do realise she's going to end up with a 100+ majority.

    The Coutnry doesn't want the Momentum lads trying to ruin the Country.

  • bobmunro said:

    aliwibble said:

    I'm the same. I cannot see how anyone could vote for a party that calls themselves socialists...and are actually proud of that as if socialism is actually a good thing.

    So what makes you think socialism _isn't_ a good thing Nick?
    USSR
    Cuba
    Venezuela
    Chezchoslovakia
    East Germany
    Hungary
    Poland
    Albania
    North Korea
    China
    Romania
    Etc


    So that's a list of current and former communist states - although not Markist that's for sure.

    If being left is communism then surely being right is fascism? Hang on - thinking about Saint Theresa you may have a point.
    British socialists were supporters of PIE in the 1970s. The left really are disgusting .
  • Lies damn lies and statistics. If you beleive that average wages have increased by 1.8% let alone 1.8% above inflation, you are truely deluded. Perhaps your stats take into account boardroom pay which has rocketed. Can't be arsed to disect the rest of your hand picked imaginings.

    Not MY stats, they are official published statistics, the definitive facts, they are not imagined. Since you seem to have difficulty in reading what i posted and can't be arsed to stimulate a couple of brain cells, they relate to the lowest fifth of households, not the average. It shows the combined impact of wages and benefits - get it now? In terms of income, including benefits, it shows the earnings inequality gap has marginally closed. Not a political statement - a fact, nothing to be satisfied about - just a fact, they just happen to clash with certain narratives.

    I can hand pick statistics that agree with your view, and show average wages are not increasing above inflation, I didn't because it's not disputed. However, with the facts I posted it suggests that benefits are increasing at a higher rate than wages. I posted the facts that might have stimulated a debate as it contradicts prevailing views on benefit cuts. Instead we get the normal nah nah nah you're deluded garbage and quote alternative facts, a la Donald Trump in denial.

    Your symptom of being in denial and having to shout down a different message to the one that supports your belief system is explained in this post, did you read it?
    http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/77814/essential-reading-before-taking-part-in-forum-discussions-well-any-discussions-really#latest
  • edited May 2017

    Lies damn lies and statistics. If you beleive that average wages have increased by 1.8% let alone 1.8% above inflation, you are truely deluded. Perhaps your stats take into account boardroom pay which has rocketed. Can't be arsed to disect the rest of your hand picked imaginings.

    Not MY stats, they are official published statistics, the definitive facts, they are not imagined. Since you seem to have difficulty in reading what i posted and can't be arsed to stimulate a couple of brain cells, they relate to the lowest fifth of households, not the average. It shows the combined impact of wages and benefits - get it now? In terms of income, including benefits, it shows the earnings inequality gap has marginally closed. Not a political statement - a fact, nothing to be satisfied about - just a fact, they just happen to clash with certain narratives.

    I can hand pick statistics that agree with your view, and show average wages are not increasing above inflation, I didn't because it's not disputed. However, with the facts I posted it suggests that benefits are increasing at a higher rate than wages. I posted the facts that might have stimulated a debate as it contradicts prevailing views on benefit cuts. Instead we get the normal nah nah nah you're deluded garbage and quote alternative facts, a la Donald Trump in denial.

    Your symptom of being in denial and having to shout down a different message to the one that supports your belief system is explained in this post, did you read it?
    http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/77814/essential-reading-before-taking-part-in-forum-discussions-well-any-discussions-really#latest
    What you have failed to mention though, is that it is pensions that have driven the increase to state benefits and the progressive redistribution you have mentioned. It also happens to be the richest demographic. But like the link you have posted, that would break the spell and ruin the confirmation bias

    What has happened to the proportion of taxes paid though? Direct taxation has dropped due to a lib dem flagship policy the conservative tried to pass off as their own. Indirect taxation, the unprgressive form, between the poorest and richest fifth has got worse. Those same statistics don't paint such a rosy picture when, like you, you pick out certain ones. Equally they don't make such good reading when you realise it is just reversing a trend that has happened in previous years.

    Edit: also forgot to mention that the fall in income tax for the poorest fifth has been somewhat offset by a increase of NI contributions to this same demographic. Slight of hand.
  • Lies damn lies and statistics. If you beleive that average wages have increased by 1.8% let alone 1.8% above inflation, you are truely deluded. Perhaps your stats take into account boardroom pay which has rocketed. Can't be arsed to disect the rest of your hand picked imaginings.

    Not MY stats, they are official published statistics, the definitive facts, they are not imagined. Since you seem to have difficulty in reading what i posted and can't be arsed to stimulate a couple of brain cells, they relate to the lowest fifth of households, not the average. It shows the combined impact of wages and benefits - get it now? In terms of income, including benefits, it shows the earnings inequality gap has marginally closed. Not a political statement - a fact, nothing to be satisfied about - just a fact, they just happen to clash with certain narratives.

    I can hand pick statistics that agree with your view, and show average wages are not increasing above inflation, I didn't because it's not disputed. However, with the facts I posted it suggests that benefits are increasing at a higher rate than wages. I posted the facts that might have stimulated a debate as it contradicts prevailing views on benefit cuts. Instead we get the normal nah nah nah you're deluded garbage and quote alternative facts, a la Donald Trump in denial.

    Your symptom of being in denial and having to shout down a different message to the one that supports your belief system is explained in this post, did you read it?
    http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/77814/essential-reading-before-taking-part-in-forum-discussions-well-any-discussions-really#latest
    Great link but I get a sense of pot/kettle here given some of your previous posts regarding the EU.
  • David Miliband, are you watching? If Macron can do it from obscurity in 12 months? Your country needs you to step up!

    Yup - as bastardly fake as Blair - no question.
    Anything for a vote. Labour values? Who cares? Just give me the power.


    ''Ed Miliband's 'grass roots' mowing picture was just a PR stunt, angry homeowner claims''
    Yeah...you will never see a Tory leader adopt a completely contrarian point of view from one minute to the next just to achieve power. Oh...wait a minute...did the lying obnoxious May once campaign for Remain?
    So sorry, thought this was a Milliband thing, but the usual 'likers' prefer your deflection.

    I thought we'd already agreed that May can be classed as 'evil'
    And that we were now discussing the sad tactics of Milliband, but apparantley we can diss the tories but never the same two face bastards wearing a different rosette.

    So tediously obvious and predictable .

    Don't be so hard on yourself.

  • edited May 2017
    Blair was successful, because he wooed the rich. Most people are more than happy to have a caring society as long as they don't have to pay through the nose for it. The minute you had the Tory press supporting him, he had won as people trusted him. Yes, the foundations of our economy at the time were built on sand, but if anybody thinks the Tories would have been any different is fooling themselves. Any attempt to take power from the banks/financial sector would have met with derision from them. They have been sending out a message for many years that they are the party to be trusted with the economy - They say it enough and people believe them - and it isn't backed up by evidence!

    What Blair knew was that both parties were fighting for that centre ground and his more caring approach swung it, when people realised he wouldn't hammer ambition and hard work or the very rich - he needed that to garner support from the press. The Tories put themselves in the position of being guardians of hard working people, but they are not, They are primarily the guardians of rich people. One of the major things a prospective Labour government has to do is explain what rich is and ensure the majority of people don't fall into that category. That won't garner the support of the establishment though, so an alternative to teh Conservatives will have to use anger - in the way the Tories do so effectively. People get angry when they think of foreigners coming in and claiming benefits or stealing our jobs, they get angry at scroungers and they play on that whether it be true or not. Anger is the tool to success. Corbyn tries to reason with people, but they don't believe he can run the country - I don't believe he can either. But I feel a lot of people in the Labour party left feel they have won by having Corbyn in power. I have some expereince of the hard left and they seem to hate others in the left more than they hate those on the right.

    Things have changed though. The apparent strength of the Tories is smoke and mirrors. They are going to have to make Brexit, and all the promises attached to that work. And, whilst I hope it does with all my heart, I can't see that being the case. And the tories won't be able to blame anybody else when people start to get upset with their lot. The loss of Scotland in teh nex parliamnet won't help either! There will be a gap for a new caring capitalist party - I think the word socialist burdens the labour party. My dream is that this new party brings in proportional representation - it will ensure that centre left views hold sway, because that is were most people gravitate to. It will destroy the hard right conservatives, and the hard left in the labour party, in terms of having any power.

    I would rather May got a reduced majority that forces her to resign, and we get somebody in (realistically from the Conservative party given the polls) who can negotiate a soft Brexit. This will make my prediction of what is to come less likely, but I don't want to go through the pain of getting there. The reality is the Tories will win by a landslide and it will be the most dangerous event for them in their history. By the time of the next election, I predict there will be a lot of angry voters. And France and America have shown that independant people can gain the support of teh electorate. They are not owned by Conservative or Labour!

    Labour will get thrashed, but Corbyn will cling on to power, because controlling the Labour party is what the hard left aspire to. There will be a massive gap in the middle which I think, not only Labour and Liberal politicians will move to, but Tories who are to the left of their party. All that is needed is a charismatic leader to unite behind and two party politics of the Labour/Conservative kind will be wiped off the map. A vacuum will always get filled and one is being created and made larger by this election.
  • Ha.


    Pro-Millwall candidate to stand in general election.

    She's going to 'drain the swamp', apparently...
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  • And build the 'wall, I would hope (or not hope).
  • I think the word socialist burdens the labour party.

    As I've mentioned before, I think the word Labour burdens the Labour Party. It is such an unattractive word with connotations from the past of working your bollocks off for feck all money and dying from an industrial disease before you qualify for the state pension.
    Those days are gone or (hopefully) going. Nobody wants to be categorised as some form of human pit pony. I read only this morning that within ten years nearly half -1.2mn - of Scotland's jobs would be lost to automation. I guess the UK-wide position is going to be similar. All the Labours pledges on giving Unions more powers would do is provide them with bargaining rights for the legions of robots. We need to create a whole raft of proper, decent, skilled jobs or we are all doomed. None of the people doing this work will be all that attracted to the idea of being associated with an archaic movement born in a completely different era. That's the ultimate irony of the Momentum movement. Their momentum is backwards to an age that is long gone.

    A decent socialist party in this country here and now needs a better name - something more aspirational. God knows what. Maybe just The Party would do?

  • cafcfan said:

    I think the word socialist burdens the labour party.

    As I've mentioned before, I think the word Labour burdens the Labour Party. It is such an unattractive word with connotations from the past of working your bollocks off for feck all money and dying from an industrial disease before you qualify for the state pension.
    Those days are gone or (hopefully) going. Nobody wants to be categorised as some form of human pit pony. I read only this morning that within ten years nearly half -1.2mn - of Scotland's jobs would be lost to automation. I guess the UK-wide position is going to be similar. All the Labours pledges on giving Unions more powers would do is provide them with bargaining rights for the legions of robots. We need to create a whole raft of proper, decent, skilled jobs or we are all doomed. None of the people doing this work will be all that attracted to the idea of being associated with an archaic movement born in a completely different era. That's the ultimate irony of the Momentum movement. Their momentum is backwards to an age that is long gone.

    A decent socialist party in this country here and now needs a better name - something more aspirational. God knows what. Maybe just The Party would do?

    The party's a personality cult already so why not copy Macron and rename the party using the leaders initials. They could be the Justice Campaigners or Joy Commune.
  • Ha.


    Pro-Millwall candidate to stand in general election.

    She's going to 'drain the swamp', apparently...

    This is in my constituency.
  • Ha.


    Pro-Millwall candidate to stand in general election.

    She's going to 'drain the swamp', apparently...

    Sounds like she won't manage an electoral pact with the Greens then...
  • cafcfan said:

    I think the word socialist burdens the labour party.

    As I've mentioned before, I think the word Labour burdens the Labour Party. It is such an unattractive word with connotations from the past of working your bollocks off for feck all money and dying from an industrial disease before you qualify for the state pension.
    Those days are gone or (hopefully) going. Nobody wants to be categorised as some form of human pit pony. I read only this morning that within ten years nearly half -1.2mn - of Scotland's jobs would be lost to automation. I guess the UK-wide position is going to be similar. All the Labours pledges on giving Unions more powers would do is provide them with bargaining rights for the legions of robots. We need to create a whole raft of proper, decent, skilled jobs or we are all doomed. None of the people doing this work will be all that attracted to the idea of being associated with an archaic movement born in a completely different era. That's the ultimate irony of the Momentum movement. Their momentum is backwards to an age that is long gone.

    A decent socialist party in this country here and now needs a better name - something more aspirational. God knows what. Maybe just The Party would do?

    The party's a personality cult already so why not copy Macron and rename the party using the leaders initials. They could be the Justice Campaigners or Joy Commune.
    I think we need to reinvigorate the youth vote. Too many young people on zero hours contracts who aren't part of the trade unionist movement and are more likely to get their news and information online.

    Party McPartyface.
  • McBobbin said:

    cafcfan said:

    I think the word socialist burdens the labour party.

    As I've mentioned before, I think the word Labour burdens the Labour Party. It is such an unattractive word with connotations from the past of working your bollocks off for feck all money and dying from an industrial disease before you qualify for the state pension.
    Those days are gone or (hopefully) going. Nobody wants to be categorised as some form of human pit pony. I read only this morning that within ten years nearly half -1.2mn - of Scotland's jobs would be lost to automation. I guess the UK-wide position is going to be similar. All the Labours pledges on giving Unions more powers would do is provide them with bargaining rights for the legions of robots. We need to create a whole raft of proper, decent, skilled jobs or we are all doomed. None of the people doing this work will be all that attracted to the idea of being associated with an archaic movement born in a completely different era. That's the ultimate irony of the Momentum movement. Their momentum is backwards to an age that is long gone.

    A decent socialist party in this country here and now needs a better name - something more aspirational. God knows what. Maybe just The Party would do?

    The party's a personality cult already so why not copy Macron and rename the party using the leaders initials. They could be the Justice Campaigners or Joy Commune.
    I think we need to reinvigorate the youth vote. Too many young people on zero hours contracts who aren't part of the trade unionist movement and are more likely to get their news and information online.

    Party McPartyface.
    I don't hold with scummy employers taking the piss out of workers and treating them like shite but not all workers hate the gig economy and zero hours contracts.

    For certain sectors they work well. A large percentage of people in my community have a number of jobs and generally seem content with their lot.

    It is dreadful for those desperate for more regular work/hours but banning zero hour contracts is unlikely to be the answer.

    This article suggests not everybody is unhappy with zero hours but it is a few years ago and they have proliferated since TBF.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25098984
  • McBobbin said:

    cafcfan said:

    I think the word socialist burdens the labour party.

    As I've mentioned before, I think the word Labour burdens the Labour Party. It is such an unattractive word with connotations from the past of working your bollocks off for feck all money and dying from an industrial disease before you qualify for the state pension.
    Those days are gone or (hopefully) going. Nobody wants to be categorised as some form of human pit pony. I read only this morning that within ten years nearly half -1.2mn - of Scotland's jobs would be lost to automation. I guess the UK-wide position is going to be similar. All the Labours pledges on giving Unions more powers would do is provide them with bargaining rights for the legions of robots. We need to create a whole raft of proper, decent, skilled jobs or we are all doomed. None of the people doing this work will be all that attracted to the idea of being associated with an archaic movement born in a completely different era. That's the ultimate irony of the Momentum movement. Their momentum is backwards to an age that is long gone.

    A decent socialist party in this country here and now needs a better name - something more aspirational. God knows what. Maybe just The Party would do?

    The party's a personality cult already so why not copy Macron and rename the party using the leaders initials. They could be the Justice Campaigners or Joy Commune.
    I think we need to reinvigorate the youth vote. Too many young people on zero hours contracts who aren't part of the trade unionist movement and are more likely to get their news and information online.

    Party McPartyface.
    I don't hold with scummy employers taking the piss out of workers and treating them like shite but not all workers hate the gig economy and zero hours contracts.

    For certain sectors they work well. A large percentage of people in my community have a number of jobs and generally seem content with their lot.

    It is dreadful for those desperate for more regular work/hours but banning zero hour contracts is unlikely to be the answer.

    This article suggests not everybody is unhappy with zero hours but it is a few years ago and they have proliferated since TBF.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25098984
    Possibly a whoosh as I was lining up my desperately unfunny punchline. You were right to dodge it.

    But I agree that zero hours contracts and their flexibility have a role for employer and employee, but when it comes to things like getting a mortgage or having guaranteed monthly income they aren't great
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!