If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
I'm not comparing anyone.
Like @CAFCNick1992 I'm just fed up of people telling others who they should vote for (and being branded with a negative label if they dont follow like sheep) - Like we both say, all its going to do is push people into being silent voters which is going to make a laughing stock of polls and make others so comfortable of winning, they wont think they need to vote!!
Hold on a minute, let's study what @cafcnick1992 wrote, more carefully.
Within his list of elections it is an established fact that the Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, votes, but NOT the Tory 2015 vote, was overweight in the less educated elements of society. That fact surely should not go unreported. It does not of course imply that intelligent, uni.educated people did not make those choices too. After all people like Farage and Banks are many things but they are definitely intelligent and have benefitted from the highest education the country can offer.
If media commentators then imply, wrongly, that all Brexit voters are thick, then I agree this is damaging and they should be ignored. But I am not sure I personally came across serious articles that suggest that.
I guess Nick when talking about "silent voters" was referencing that the poor showing of opinion pollsters in the case of Brexit and Trump was down to shy Brexiteers/Trumpers. That certainly seems a plausible theory, though I am not sure if it has yet been proven beyond reasonable doubt (and it would certainly be possible to do so). However the French election runs against that. The poll-of-poll figures called Le Pen's vote right to within 0.5%, and also tracked her downward trend since March. So no shy supporters there. And again, the turnout was excellent. I've not spent enough time in France or with French people to be sure, but I have the overall impression that the French actually still value strong political debate and are not afraid to participate in it at individual level, even though that will involve voices on both sides of the spectrum that would be regarded as extreme in Britain. Good for them, I say. I don't think you'd get a French version of this forum where participants would post (ad nauseam) "shut this thread down, it's over, move on"
Hold on a minute, let's study what @cafcnick1992 wrote, more carefully.
Within his list of elections it is an established fact that the Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, votes, but NOT the Tory 2015 vote, was overweight in the less educated elements of society. That fact surely should not go unreported. It does not of course imply that intelligent, uni.educated people did not make those choices too. After all people like Farage and Banks are many things but they are definitely intelligent and have benefitted from the highest education the country can offer.
If media commentators then imply, wrongly, that all Brexit voters are thick, then I agree this is damaging and they should be ignored. But I am not sure I personally came across serious articles that suggest that.
I guess Nick when talking about "silent voters" was referencing that the poor showing of opinion pollsters in the case of Brexit and Trump was down to shy Brexiteers/Trumpers. That certainly seems a plausible theory, though I am not sure if it has yet been proven beyond reasonable doubt (and it would certainly be possible to do so). However the French election runs against that. The poll-of-poll figures called Le Pen's vote right to within 0.5%, and also tracked her downward trend since March. So no shy supporters there. And again, the turnout was excellent. I've not spent enough time in France or with French people to be sure, but I have the overall impression that the French actually still value strong political debate and are not afraid to participate in it at individual level, even though that will involve voices on both sides of the spectrum that would be regarded as extreme in Britain. Good for them, I say. I don't think you'd get a French version of this forum where participants would post (ad nauseam) "shut this thread down, it's over, move on"
So, would "shy Trumpers" be considered silent but deadly????
Infantile, I know, and I do, sort of, apologise.
Were it not for the fact that im already wearing it, I'd offer to get my coat.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
That reminds me of the celebrations that the Austrian far right candidate for Presidency only got 46% in a two horse race...
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
"Remain" was polling at about 51/2% in the lead up to the vote, meaning the margin of error could see it swing either way, so the idea that people didn't go out to vote because it was inevitable that it would lose, while possible, is unlikely. Ditto that remainers stayed home. It would show a real lack of understanding of polling given that result was well within the margin of error.
For Trump, he lost the popular vote by 3 million, so you can't really call that a "silent majority" (which is a phrase that harks back to Nixon and a shift in political party ideologies and demographics). He won the electoral college by 100,000 across three states. He did a good job of turning out lapsed voters and some new voters in exurban or rural areas. But at the end of the day, he hit his numbers with Republicans which is a large reason why he is now President.
For me personally, the only time I can ever remember telling people how to vote is to not vote for Democrats, because their policies and ideologies do not match those of the person I'm talking to. I'll have debates on the internet about things like healthcare or the role of Government in society, but those are questions both parties here, and all parties in the UK I believe, need to start to address better. No one should tell anyone how to vote just for the sake of it, but I'd argue debate over Government's role and policy are important.
As to why you may be criticized for voting for Trump or Le Pen: they both hold bigoted, and in Trump's case sexist, views of the world that they are very outspoken about. That is a marked difference from, say, David Cameron or Jeb Bush or whomever conservative political. And that is a difference that these "nationalist, populist" movements highlight. Now, that is not to say that everyone who votes for them is racist, sexist, or Islamaphobic. Jon Stewart did a great interview in which he talked about having friends who vote for Trump not because they're scared of immigrants, but because they're scared of their healthcare premiums.
When you (the hypothetical "you" here) vote for people like that, you have to accept that you are voting for someone who believes in things that are clear prejudices against large groups of people. It's no different from the fact that I voted for Hillary Clinton despite disagreeing with her on many things. There was a high risk that she (like her predecessor) would appoint a Wall Street friendly cabinet (I was bracing for the day when she chose her Treasury Secretary) and hawkish foreign policy could lead to further expanding the perpetual wars we have found ourselves in over the past 15 years. These are the trade-offs you make in representative democracy. Maybe you agree with Trump or Le Pen's stances on "the other" (immigrants, Muslims, Indiana-born judges, Jeff Sessions), maybe you don't. But if you are criticized for that vote, it is because they have certain views that are exclusionary.
There's clearly a few people on here with too much time on their hands.
::cough:: al least we don't go round to the houses of other people's parents ::cough:: But seriously my dad gets bored and would always love the company .
I know it's lazy and a stupid comeback, but to be fair I haven't gotten to dust if off for AGES.
P.S. please don't take this seriously el presidente, it's just a shit joke.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
An obvious and significant difference between Macron and Chirac is that non post-industrial provincial France would often vote for Chirac/Sarkozy. A centre right candidate, in leftist clothing would never attract them.
Whilst at University in the mid 90's there was a hysterical left-wing fear of the right's rise in Europe: Particularly Eastern. From memory various far-right candidates gained up to 20% in elections. These parties waned but rose again in the late noghties. Racist political parties attract support where people think they've been left behind. Of the France I know I'd hope she polls significantly less than 30%, but outside the main cities they are very conservative barely past the July Monarchy. Considering that Socialist parties supported fully racist, punitive and murderous policy in Algeria, it isn't hard to see how White Provincial France would en masse support Le Pen.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
That reminds me of the celebrations that the Austrian far right candidate for Presidency only got 46% in a two horse race...
Well a couple of points on that.
What was celebrated was that this was a re-run, and in the febrile post Brexit atmosphere it was widely feared that he had the momentum, and would surely win the re-run. He didn't. He lost six % points.
Secondly, the far right in Austria has been strong for many years. Remember Jorge Haider? Funny thing was, last summer on holiday there, in Carinthia, the former Haider base, nobody revealed themselves as thinking that way, rather they looked on me with puzzlement about Brexit. Afterwards my Swiss buddy said that I would not have met them because they all live up the mountains with their cows.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
I'm not comparing anyone.
Like @CAFCNick1992I'm just fed up of people telling others who they should vote for (and being branded with a negative label if they dont follow like sheep) - Like we both say, all its going to do is push people into being silent voters which is going to make a laughing stock of polls and make others so comfortable of winning, they wont think they need to vote!!
A completely silent, campaignless election. No party political broadcasts, no posters in fields and windows, nothing on the news, no polls, no newspapers telling you what to think. Just a set of stark manifestos to read. I like the idea of this FA, you are on a winner mate!
I think you need French citizenship mate, but I've not looked into it
I've asked my uncle as he voted. He lives in Montpellier, but I think as he has been living there for many years, he registered to become a French citizen so now maybe he has dual nationality.
French nationality is needed to vote in the French elections.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
There's no comparison with a single issue, Brexit, and voting for a far right party.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
There's no comparison with a single issue, Brexit, and voting for a far right party.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I - perhaps immaturely - gave that post a "LOL" (now removed) as we've literally just finished discussing the same thing on this page, and it's tiresome that we've gone back to "racist brexit!" as an argument.
Will there be an overlap - perhaps even a considerable one - between those with far right views and those who oppose the EU? Of course. Are those who voted for Brexit racist? No.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
There's no comparison with a single issue, Brexit, and voting for a far right party.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I - perhaps immaturely - gave that post a "LOL" (now removed) as we've literally just finished discussing the same thing on this page, and it's tiresome that we've gone back to "racist brexit!" as an argument.
Will there be an overlap - perhaps even a considerable one - between those with far right views and those who oppose the EU? Of course. Are those who voted for Brexit racist? No.
So I feel bad poking at this, but I do want to acknowledge that there were also a lot of racist people, and racist reasons, to vote Brexit. That does not mean everyone who voted Brexit is racist. And LR, I absolutely agree that Leave=Racist is a reductionist argument that isn't really helping anything. But, I also don't want that correlation to be brushed aside or dismissed entirely, because there is a correlation.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
There's no comparison with a single issue, Brexit, and voting for a far right party.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I - perhaps immaturely - gave that post a "LOL" (now removed) as we've literally just finished discussing the same thing on this page, and it's tiresome that we've gone back to "racist brexit!" as an argument.
Will there be an overlap - perhaps even a considerable one - between those with far right views and those who oppose the EU? Of course. Are those who voted for Brexit racist? No.
So I feel bad poking at this, but I do want to acknowledge that there were also a lot of racist people, and racist reasons, to vote Brexit. That does not mean everyone who voted Brexit is racist. And LR, I absolutely agree that Leave=Racist is a reductionist argument that isn't really helping anything. But, I also don't want that correlation to be brushed aside or dismissed entirely, because there is a correlation.
That goes without saying, and as I mentioned - there's a considerable overlap between the two groups.
Ultimately it's a bit of a meaningless heuristic alone though, the rudest people I've ever seen have all been on the Northern Line during rush hour - especially around Bank. Does that mean that everyone on the Northern Line travelling on the Bank Branch between 0700 and 0930 is rude though? Nope, a considerable percentage perhaps.
Whilst the correlation lacks any real evidence, it's safe to surmise that people being packed in to an overcrowded platform and then being crammed in to a train carriage isn't conducive* to having a polite and pleasant demeanour - but then again some of them will simply be assholes, and others are just going about their daily lives.
Likewise, it's easy to see the attractiveness of a potential for closed borders by those who simply hate foreigners, but there's other reasons some may want closed borders (even if those reasons don't stand up to scrutiny), whilst others don't care about borders or immigration and simply made their choice based upon a whole range of other factors.
It's as tiresome to hear that Brexit was a vote on racism as it would be to hear that the thousands of people on the Bank Branch of the Northern Line between the hours of 0700 and 0930 on weekdays are completely insufferable assholes though, and there's just as much logic and reasoning behind the two statements.
(Other cracking examples include (a) vegans being incredible bores, (b) cyclists being the kamikazes of the road, and (c)Audi drivers being phallically challenged; all probably have a fair few examples of the stereotype holding strong, whilst being grossly unfair on the rest.)
*Why the heck is "conducive" spelt with a 'c' - it's begging for a cheeky little 's'?!
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Whilst we can all concur that the Front Nationale is steeped in Vichy history - just look at the maps of Vichy vs Le Pen support - there is more to it which might contradict some of your assertions.
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
Except in both cases it was a minority of the electorate, and in Trump's case, a minority of the votes cast, so I don't see where you're finding your 'majority'.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Whilst we can all concur that the Front Nationale is steeped in Vichy history - just look at the maps of Vichy vs Le Pen support - there is more to it which might contradict some of your assertions.
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
Ten days to go and all to play for.
If Le Pen hits 40% in round two I'd be surprised. I can only see it happening if there's a serious terrorist attack or if large swathes of the electorate abstain.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Whilst we can all concur that the Front Nationale is steeped in Vichy history - just look at the maps of Vichy vs Le Pen support - there is more to it which might contradict some of your assertions.
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
Ten days to go and all to play for.
If Le Pen hits 40% in round two I'd be surprised. I can only see it happening if there's a serious terrorist attack or if large swathes of the electorate abstain.
I think 'abstain' is probably too posh a word - 'can't be arsed' probably sums it up better.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Le pen and front national may well be racist. But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party. Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen. Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
At least in France it's only a third voting for the nationalists whereas in Britain it was over a half. And why shouldn't I compare Le Pen to Brexit? I've listened to Le Pen on French television and although I can't stand her, she is more articulate and reasons with greater logic than either Farage or Boris Johnson. I do not believe her to be any more racist than Farage and over half of Britons voted for his one policy.
There's no comparison with a single issue, Brexit, and voting for a far right party.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I - perhaps immaturely - gave that post a "LOL" (now removed) as we've literally just finished discussing the same thing on this page, and it's tiresome that we've gone back to "racist brexit!" as an argument.
Will there be an overlap - perhaps even a considerable one - between those with far right views and those who oppose the EU? Of course. Are those who voted for Brexit racist? No.
So I feel bad poking at this, but I do want to acknowledge that there were also a lot of racist people, and racist reasons, to vote Brexit. That does not mean everyone who voted Brexit is racist. And LR, I absolutely agree that Leave=Racist is a reductionist argument that isn't really helping anything. But, I also don't want that correlation to be brushed aside or dismissed entirely, because there is a correlation.
That goes without saying, and as I mentioned - there's a considerable overlap between the two groups.
Ultimately it's a bit of a meaningless heuristic alone though, the rudest people I've ever seen have all been on the Northern Line during rush hour - especially around Bank. Does that mean that everyone on the Northern Line travelling on the Bank Branch between 0700 and 0930 is rude though? Nope, a considerable percentage perhaps.
Whilst the correlation lacks any real evidence, it's safe to surmise that people being packed in to an overcrowded platform and then being crammed in to a train carriage isn't conducive* to having a polite and pleasant demeanour - but then again some of them will simply be assholes, and others are just going about their daily lives.
Likewise, it's easy to see the attractiveness of a potential for closed borders by those who simply hate foreigners, but there's other reasons some may want closed borders (even if those reasons don't stand up to scrutiny), whilst others don't care about borders or immigration and simply made their choice based upon a whole range of other factors.
It's as tiresome to hear that Brexit was a vote on racism as it would be to hear that the thousands of people on the Bank Branch of the Northern Line between the hours of 0700 and 0930 on weekdays are completely insufferable assholes though, and there's just as much logic and reasoning behind the two statements.
(Other cracking examples include (a) vegans being incredible bores, (b) cyclists being the kamikazes of the road, and (c)Audi drivers being phallically challenged; all probably have a fair few examples of the stereotype holding strong, whilst being grossly unfair on the rest.)
*Why the heck is "conducive" spelt with a 'c' - it's begging for a cheeky little 's'?!
Condusive. It just looks better, doesn't it?
Completely agree. I haven't been following the Brexit threads super closely, so perhaps this was already treaded ground that didn't need rehashing, and I apologize if that's the case. Your point is a good one.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Whilst we can all concur that the Front Nationale is steeped in Vichy history - just look at the maps of Vichy vs Le Pen support - there is more to it which might contradict some of your assertions.
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
Ten days to go and all to play for.
If Le Pen hits 40% in round two I'd be surprised. I can only see it happening if there's a serious terrorist attack or if large swathes of the electorate abstain.
But people are being asked to vote for the popularise Marine and not Le Pen.
Good post from SR on the rise of the alt right, though he may be taking the link a little far to the German Corporal.
If people want to vote for her, let them vote for her.
It really irritates me how people who voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen/Conservative are denounced as stupid/unintelligent types in the media.
All it does it lead to people turning into silent voters, scared that their left wing colleagues/friends will just negatively label them.
We all have opinions and our opinions are equal according to the democracy we live in.
Agreed... Its quite staggering that after Brexit and Trump people still refuse to get this.
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
A minority voted for Trump, 3% more people voted for Brexit. Do not compare the racist, xenophobic, incompetent economic policy of Le Pen to Trump and Tory Brexit policy. Around 20% voted for Le Pen.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Whilst we can all concur that the Front Nationale is steeped in Vichy history - just look at the maps of Vichy vs Le Pen support - there is more to it which might contradict some of your assertions.
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
Ten days to go and all to play for.
If Le Pen hits 40% in round two I'd be surprised. I can only see it happening if there's a serious terrorist attack or if large swathes of the electorate abstain.
But people are being asked to vote for the popularise Marine and not Le Pen.
Good post from SR on the rise of the alt right, though he may be taking the link a little far to the German Corporal.
Comments
Could quite easily have been the case where people listened to polls prior to both elections, saw that Brexit and Trump were going to lose through them and decided against voting because their vote wasnt need to win.
As it was, the silent majority then ensured victory for both Brexit and Trump.
I was enraged by the Coast TV Liberal elite in the US. When that smug bugger Bill O'Reilly's pre-election speech linked Trump to virtually Fascists at the door, my contrarian instincts made me want to vote Trump if I could. Same when I meet mediah friends who live in E London and roll their eyes at 'racist' Brexit.
But Le Pen and the National Front are racists. They are the direct line from Vichy, to that foul filth of a man Papon onto her Father and her base support. The main good thing is that as Paul Mason said via Brexit we are not influenced in policy at the EU by the rise of the far right in Europe. France in the interior is often racist, up to the 70's and 80's they still saw politicians/civil servants that represented their racist views openly. 20% for Le Pen has little direct parallel with Trump or Brexit. For god sake Melenchon got 19%: and as an aside makes Le Pen look a fool on TV, but an ex-Communist has no chance.
Like @CAFCNick1992 I'm just fed up of people telling others who they should vote for (and being branded with a negative label if they dont follow like sheep) - Like we both say, all its going to do is push people into being silent voters which is going to make a laughing stock of polls and make others so comfortable of winning, they wont think they need to vote!!
Within his list of elections it is an established fact that the Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, votes, but NOT the Tory 2015 vote, was overweight in the less educated elements of society. That fact surely should not go unreported. It does not of course imply that intelligent, uni.educated people did not make those choices too. After all people like Farage and Banks are many things but they are definitely intelligent and have benefitted from the highest education the country can offer.
If media commentators then imply, wrongly, that all Brexit voters are thick, then I agree this is damaging and they should be ignored. But I am not sure I personally came across serious articles that suggest that.
I guess Nick when talking about "silent voters" was referencing that the poor showing of opinion pollsters in the case of Brexit and Trump was down to shy Brexiteers/Trumpers. That certainly seems a plausible theory, though I am not sure if it has yet been proven beyond reasonable doubt (and it would certainly be possible to do so). However the French election runs against that. The poll-of-poll figures called Le Pen's vote right to within 0.5%, and also tracked her downward trend since March. So no shy supporters there. And again, the turnout was excellent. I've not spent enough time in France or with French people to be sure, but I have the overall impression that the French actually still value strong political debate and are not afraid to participate in it at individual level, even though that will involve voices on both sides of the spectrum that would be regarded as extreme in Britain. Good for them, I say. I don't think you'd get a French version of this forum where participants would post (ad nauseam) "shut this thread down, it's over, move on"
Infantile, I know, and I do, sort of, apologise.
Were it not for the fact that im already wearing it, I'd offer to get my coat.
But here we are in 2017 and the forecast is that 38% of French people voting on the 7th of may will be voting for a racist party.
Even if it's 66% to 33% that's 1 in 3 voting le pen.
Most comments I've seen just seem to want to brush le pen and FN aside
When surely the question should be in 2017 how the f@ck has it come to a third voting in France has voted le pen
For Trump, he lost the popular vote by 3 million, so you can't really call that a "silent majority" (which is a phrase that harks back to Nixon and a shift in political party ideologies and demographics). He won the electoral college by 100,000 across three states. He did a good job of turning out lapsed voters and some new voters in exurban or rural areas. But at the end of the day, he hit his numbers with Republicans which is a large reason why he is now President.
For me personally, the only time I can ever remember telling people how to vote is to not vote for Democrats, because their policies and ideologies do not match those of the person I'm talking to. I'll have debates on the internet about things like healthcare or the role of Government in society, but those are questions both parties here, and all parties in the UK I believe, need to start to address better. No one should tell anyone how to vote just for the sake of it, but I'd argue debate over Government's role and policy are important.
As to why you may be criticized for voting for Trump or Le Pen: they both hold bigoted, and in Trump's case sexist, views of the world that they are very outspoken about. That is a marked difference from, say, David Cameron or Jeb Bush or whomever conservative political. And that is a difference that these "nationalist, populist" movements highlight. Now, that is not to say that everyone who votes for them is racist, sexist, or Islamaphobic. Jon Stewart did a great interview in which he talked about having friends who vote for Trump not because they're scared of immigrants, but because they're scared of their healthcare premiums.
When you (the hypothetical "you" here) vote for people like that, you have to accept that you are voting for someone who believes in things that are clear prejudices against large groups of people. It's no different from the fact that I voted for Hillary Clinton despite disagreeing with her on many things. There was a high risk that she (like her predecessor) would appoint a Wall Street friendly cabinet (I was bracing for the day when she chose her Treasury Secretary) and hawkish foreign policy could lead to further expanding the perpetual wars we have found ourselves in over the past 15 years. These are the trade-offs you make in representative democracy. Maybe you agree with Trump or Le Pen's stances on "the other" (immigrants, Muslims, Indiana-born judges, Jeff Sessions), maybe you don't. But if you are criticized for that vote, it is because they have certain views that are exclusionary.
I know it's lazy and a stupid comeback, but to be fair I haven't gotten to dust if off for AGES.
P.S. please don't take this seriously el presidente, it's just a shit joke.
An obvious and significant difference between Macron and Chirac is that non post-industrial provincial France would often vote for Chirac/Sarkozy. A centre right candidate, in leftist clothing would never attract them.
Whilst at University in the mid 90's there was a hysterical left-wing fear of the right's rise in Europe: Particularly Eastern. From memory various far-right candidates gained up to 20% in elections. These parties waned but rose again in the late noghties. Racist political parties attract support where people think they've been left behind. Of the France I know I'd hope she polls significantly less than 30%, but outside the main cities they are very conservative barely past the July Monarchy. Considering that Socialist parties supported fully racist, punitive and murderous policy in Algeria, it isn't hard to see how White Provincial France would en masse support Le Pen.
What was celebrated was that this was a re-run, and in the febrile post Brexit atmosphere it was widely feared that he had the momentum, and would surely win the re-run. He didn't. He lost six % points.
Secondly, the far right in Austria has been strong for many years. Remember Jorge Haider? Funny thing was, last summer on holiday there, in Carinthia, the former Haider base, nobody revealed themselves as thinking that way, rather they looked on me with puzzlement about Brexit. Afterwards my Swiss buddy said that I would not have met them because they all live up the mountains with their cows.
Being anti EU (as in the operations and political institutions of the EU) is a perfectly respectable point of view, that can be taken by people of all political persuasions.
In a similar vein, people in Scotland who want independence do so because they are against the operations and political institutions of the UK, not because they are racist.
I - perhaps immaturely - gave that post a "LOL" (now removed) as we've literally just finished discussing the same thing on this page, and it's tiresome that we've gone back to "racist brexit!" as an argument.
Will there be an overlap - perhaps even a considerable one - between those with far right views and those who oppose the EU? Of course.
Are those who voted for Brexit racist? No.
Ultimately it's a bit of a meaningless heuristic alone though, the rudest people I've ever seen have all been on the Northern Line during rush hour - especially around Bank. Does that mean that everyone on the Northern Line travelling on the Bank Branch between 0700 and 0930 is rude though? Nope, a considerable percentage perhaps.
Whilst the correlation lacks any real evidence, it's safe to surmise that people being packed in to an overcrowded platform and then being crammed in to a train carriage isn't conducive* to having a polite and pleasant demeanour - but then again some of them will simply be assholes, and others are just going about their daily lives.
Likewise, it's easy to see the attractiveness of a potential for closed borders by those who simply hate foreigners, but there's other reasons some may want closed borders (even if those reasons don't stand up to scrutiny), whilst others don't care about borders or immigration and simply made their choice based upon a whole range of other factors.
It's as tiresome to hear that Brexit was a vote on racism as it would be to hear that the thousands of people on the Bank Branch of the Northern Line between the hours of 0700 and 0930 on weekdays are completely insufferable assholes though, and there's just as much logic and reasoning behind the two statements.
(Other cracking examples include (a) vegans being incredible bores, (b) cyclists being the kamikazes of the road, and (c)Audi drivers being phallically challenged; all probably have a fair few examples of the stereotype holding strong, whilst being grossly unfair on the rest.)
*Why the heck is "conducive" spelt with a 'c' - it's begging for a cheeky little 's'?!
Firstly Le Pen secured 21% in the first round so a more legitimate comparison might be her second round vote which is currently polling at 39%. That is way below 52% for Brexit, but it's in the same range.
Today the Express has a headline that a poll suggests the Le Pen second round campaign has launched well according to 61%. That is not voter intentions which are 60:40 in favour of Macron.
And yet a friend at lunch states "I see Le Pen is leading the polls"!
Contrary to assertions above, there is another parallel. Not only is Le Pen strong in the South but she and her party have won over the rust belt of the North East. Same as Trump and Brexit. And she is using precisely the same constructs. The left are failing there and the link between philosophers and traditional working class areas is breaking.
Le Pen senior - the original anti semitic holocaust denier - now states tbat his daughter should appeal to the far left with Trump style rhetoric about workers vs management etc.
As others state, this is certainly not to say that all Le Pen supporters are racists. Just that her simplistic blame Islam, blame the EU and Euro agenda is attractive to some. And that there are many on the far left who might vote for her or abstain rather than vote for the neoliberal Macron.
In this country, Labour have been seduced by a trip to the left but it's a one way ticket to electoral oblivion. Principalled for sure but sub 25% ratings - same as Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain.
Principled oppositionalism but no agenda to govern.
We all know some bright people who voted for Brexit. And we have all had the opportunity to read the remain post mortem based upon analysis, not blame. The failure of Corbyn to engage was deliberate and the reality has finally dawned upon metropolitan Britain. Where there has been 0% growth in living standards for decades in the regions, despite 2.5% GDP growth per annum has caused the regions to return a universal 58:42 result for Brexit.
As one Oxford professor reported, he launched a speech at a rally up north proclaiming the path to growth and somebody in the crowd stated "that's your GDP not ours!"
The same phenomenon has happened in NE France but not the Loire valley and the atlantic coast. And certainly not Paris, Lyon and Bordeaux.
Back to your main point, it is not pure racism which is driving this agenda for it is populist, isolationist and nationalist. The old far right from the 1970s have reinvented themselves and they have also grasped the power of social media far quicker than the centre.
And this is the electoral battle ground for the next five to ten years in western democracies.
While they seek to undermine the establishment, the courts and the established media, the alt-right also call for a direct relationship with the people. And that is far more achievable today with the internet. They call it taking back control and empowering the people while replacing the political establishment.
Around 90 years ago a little Austrian guy with a moustache had the exact same idea! "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuhrer" - one people, one nation, one leader.
Let us dispense with journalists, think tanks and economists for "the people" are fed up wirh experts!
Fortunately that tide has been halted in Europe, albeit for the time being. As per previous posts, there is a daily poll on the French election so everybody can witness the development of trends. As above it is 60:40 and so far in the second round has moved just 0.5%.
Ten days to go and all to play for.
I make you right though - I hope.
Completely agree. I haven't been following the Brexit threads super closely, so perhaps this was already treaded ground that didn't need rehashing, and I apologize if that's the case. Your point is a good one.
Good post from SR on the rise of the alt right, though he may be taking the link a little far to the German Corporal.