Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
So many subjects but a few highlights;
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
Austerity has clearly gone too far when people are killing themselves as a result of ATOS testing, when the number of food banks have increased so dramatically and homelessness has been consistently on the rise since 2011. I agree the increase in personal allowance has been a good thing for many, but hasn’t this sometimes been offset by losses in other benefits, which then make government figures look “better”? I am not sure about taxing the high earners, didn’t the Tories cut the 50% rate to 45%? As you say yourself, the poorest have been hit particularly hard. There does not seem to be much will from any party to genuinely look at improving efficiency (unless you count the Tory idea of making everything private so it has to make a profit – except the railways of course, where the taxpayer subsidises private companies and foreign governments so they can make profits. Labour would re-nationalise them of course).
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
I think if I were one of those small group of people, I would be mighty grateful that I earned enough to pay that rate of tax. I think the proposals might need tweaking, but someone on 100k a year would only be paying £20 a week more in tax, if I were already grossing the best part of 2k a week, I think I could live with that. It would be pretty mealy mouthed if they complained that schooling, health, essential services etc could be improved by their £20 loss?
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
At least Labour made some costings, the Tories couldn’t even be bothered to do that. You had no chance of believing or disbelieving the Tories claims, because they didn’t even make any! I just don’t see how anyone can judge their manifesto in any way shape or form without any figures at all? The threat of “taking business abroad” is always a bit flimsy. There are tax regimes far more favourable than those in the UK already out there – why haven’t companies like yours decamped there already if it’s such a big deal? Experience of living abroad and seeing others try it, I know that no matter how great it seems on paper, there are many people who simply wouldn’t want to move, higher paid or otherwise. There are loads of factors to consider. It’s a huge undertaking to shift an entire company to a foreign land, and for a sizable number of people money isn’t everything – that’s one of the mistakes the Tories are making in judging the UK public, they assume money is the be all and end all of everything, because that is all that matters to them and their cronies. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
As Prague and I have both pointed out in the past, and Muttly in his splendid earlier post, throughout Europe Labour are considered fairly centre left, it’s only our right wing media that make out perfectly reasonable policies to be the stuff of Marxist nightmares. Which policies might you consider to be 100 miles left?
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I am sure you would understand why many would feel the same about Rudd, Gove, Johnson, Hunt, Fox, Patel and indeed May herself. Many of whom have already proved themselves to be incompetent or wholly unsuitable for the roles assigned to them, or indeed in some cases any cabinet role… May appointed Boris Johnson as foreign secretary. Just let that sink in for a moment.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
You are right in saying no party is perfect - the Labour policy on Brexit is shit, for example. But they do seem to want to help more people than they harm, and so it makes them the best of the (sadly only) two realistic options for me.
@Algarveaddick thanks for the detailed and well thought out response, i'll try and give my view on a few of your points in bold from top to bottom and numbered:
1. I agree with a lot of what you say, homelessness is something close to my own heart that no party in my lifetime has got remotely a grip on which really grates on me.
On tax, yes there is the headline reduction reducing the 50p to 45p, but there are other 'taxes' aside from the top rate of income tax that have changed which for all but the very richest have effected a lot of the higher earners (those above £150k but those also in the 40% band and above);
a) I agree personal allowance hasn't helped everyone and may well be offset in some instances with lower benefit payments. Additionally Personal allowance removal means someone earning £123k (although it tapers from £100k) now effectively pays 60% tax between that £100k and £123k, i.e. £4,600 per annum extra. That only balances out the reduction in 5p on the top rate if you earn in excess of £240k (i.e. you save 5% on £92k over £150k = £4,600). For anyone else it's not an insignificant amount @ £88 a week.
b) NI, any higher rate tax payer (40%) now pays 2% more NI on all money above that figure, this increased to 1% from I think about 2004 and then up to 2% in 2011. You also have the additional 1% below the UEL since 2011. Quick guess for me that's about £1800 a year/£35 a week.
c) if you have children and earn over £60k you now pay tax to the equivalent value of the Child Benefit. £20.70 a week for the 1st child and £13.70 a week for subsequent children. or £1,076.40 and £712.40 per annum. Think that came in January 2013? So for me that's £1,788.80 a year or £34.40 a week.
d) Pension contributions for the higher earners the tax has also increased dramatically. Pay the maximum £40k into pension and the additional tax to pay for doing so is £13,500 per annum or £260 a week compared to someone earning below £150k.
e) had labour got in then a further 20% VAT on school fee's would be circa £3,600 per child per annum/£70 a week.
So overall, I would say despite the decrease from 50p to 45p the tax burden on the richer in society (or those in the 40% band and above) is considerably more. On a purely personal note my tax since 2010 has probably increased by in excess of £1700 a month taking all of the above into account. Good job I didn't move house and take the whopping mortgage the bank offered (first world problems I know ).
2. I agree the extra 'income tax' labour were contemplating may only be £20 a week for someone on £100k but in the overall burden since 2010 it's considerably more and Labour also proposed the 50p rate at a much lower figure than the current 45p band, IHT etc etc. Just like many may say austerity has gone far enough (or to far) some will say so has taxation in certain areas/bands. You also had the extra 20% on school fee's as an example. I'm not a fan of private education but know many people who are who struggle monthly to meet the cost, they would simply have gone back into state education which I'm not sure would have helped anyone as the extra tax collected from that individual wouldn't cover the cost. As I've said many times I'm all for taxation going up across the board to fund public services better, I just thing labour went too far and there are other ways as well that we should be looking (efficiency, my note re schools wastage and real life examples springs to mind).
3. My company already have a Bermuda office (and domiciled company) and write an amount of business from there, it would literally take a few weeks to shift business, it is certainly currently more tax efficient but not currently hugely more profitable for various reasons. However if the tax rates moved as suggested by labour (both corp and private) the pendulum would swing massively one way and all I can say is what I said before as to what would happen. We don't have a need to be in the UK as most business is international anyway, so why stay when the key staff don't want to and the company cuts it's profits by doing so? In time for post brexit we'll be opening somewhere in Europe anyway (some already have with Ireland and Belgium being popular!) so at least in part some of the business and profit will go abroad.
4. I don't think you can say the current UK Labour Party are Center left? But suppose depends on your definition of the left. I'd have put a blair labour as center left.
6. Conservatives have many numpty politicians and agree with most of your list, my point wasn't necessarily who has the best MP's as that's debatable depending on your views but that Labour have a number of MP's and of that number I believe (happy to be proved wrong) that Corbyn has at his disposal a much smaller amount and ever diminishing amount to choose from.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
soviet union and communist china. Whether you'd think a left wing labour government would eventually turn into those implementations is irrelevant (and there were those that in the labour ranks at the time that saw them as shining beacons), it's the fact they were obvious reasons why you shouldn't vote for a far left government.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
soviet union and communist china. Whether you'd think a left wing labour government would eventually turn into those implementations is irrelevant (and there were those that in the labour ranks at the time that saw them as shining beacons), it's the fact they were obvious reasons why you shouldn't vote for a far left government.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Oh come on. The Soviet Union and Communist China were and are right wing dictatorships. You seriously believe all the "people's" army and "glorious workers" are anything more than propaganda and spin ? It's almost like believing "we're all in this together"
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
soviet union and communist china. Whether you'd think a left wing labour government would eventually turn into those implementations is irrelevant (and there were those that in the labour ranks at the time that saw them as shining beacons), it's the fact they were obvious reasons why you shouldn't vote for a far left government.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Sorry @kentaddick but that has broken the bollocksometer. Even at my most strident anti-Thatcher period did I think or compare her to Hitler, Mussolini or Franco. Although she was of course good friends with Pinochet.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
soviet union and communist china. Whether you'd think a left wing labour government would eventually turn into those implementations is irrelevant (and there were those that in the labour ranks at the time that saw them as shining beacons), it's the fact they were obvious reasons why you shouldn't vote for a far left government.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Oh come on. The Soviet Union and Communist China were and are right wing dictatorships. You seriously believe all the "people's" army and "glorious workers" are anything more than propaganda and spin ? It's almost like believing "we're all in this together"
they were and quite clearly left wing dictatorships. If you truly believe that they were right wing dictatorships then i urge you to reach out to just about any political scientist on twitter to confirm this, because it's absolute rubbish. If you are able to provide any substantial evidence that they were right wing and pro private business then i'd urge you to write a book and publish, you'll have accolades galore, and i'd certainly buy it.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to remind me of those devastating left wing policies and who implemented them.
soviet union and communist china. Whether you'd think a left wing labour government would eventually turn into those implementations is irrelevant (and there were those that in the labour ranks at the time that saw them as shining beacons), it's the fact they were obvious reasons why you shouldn't vote for a far left government.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Sorry @kentaddick but that has broken the bollocksometer. Even at my most strident anti-Thatcher period did I think or compare her to Hitler, Mussolini or Franco. Although she was of course good friends with Pinochet.
I wasn't comparing anyone to anything? Just saying that's why shooter's grandparents never voted labour, they just had to take a peak at the other side of the iron curtain and see what left wing policies had created. Although, corbyn's love in for modern day communist dictators is also concerning now that you mention it..
And I remember Tories wearing badges saying 'hang Nelson Mandela' we could go on for hours but why not think for yourself rather than just dragging up any old bollocks.
And I remember Tories wearing badges saying 'hang Nelson Mandela' we could go on for hours but why not think for yourself rather than just dragging up any old bollocks.
Why personal attacks? Those people were despicable, but as i previously mentioned, the right dont have a monopoly on being disgusting people.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
I'd add to the reason is that the Labour Party at the time had essentially run the economy into the ground, Thatcherism and neoliberalism pulled the country out of inflation and economic ruin. Might have something to do with why they voted Tory as well. What ends those neoliberal policies have brought us to is another debate.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Well, you shut your eyes and ears to my post about those people fighting against right wing dictatorships, so there's a lot of it about...
They never cheered when nurses and firemen had their pay effectively reduced either.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
Well, considering the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets.. no. Interesting you should refer to national socialism in Germany though...
And I remember Tories wearing badges saying 'hang Nelson Mandela' we could go on for hours but why not think for yourself rather than just dragging up any old bollocks.
Why personal attacks? Those people were despicable, but as i previously mentioned, the right dont have a monopoly on being disgusting people.
More frustration with your inability to discuss in any way other than conjuring up a straw man.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
Well, considering the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets.. no. Interesting you should refer to national socialism in Germany though...
That's actually very close to a flag. I realise your political ideas are a bit warped but that's just stretching things too far. You might want to retract that.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
Well, considering the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets.. no. Interesting you should refer to national socialism in Germany though...
FFS! If I linked Conservatism to the Nazis I would hope everybody on here (whatever stripe) would put me right, I can only think you are on a mega wind up mission.
You do of course skip over the national (nationalist!) bit, but apart from that have a read about 'The Night of the Long Knives' and whilst they were by no means socialists (they were used to have street fights with communists and oppose social democrats) their leader Rohm did at least have different ideas to Hitler. The putsch basically consolidated Hitler and opened the door for the atrocities that followed.
I guess working class people are swayed by the Conservatives as they convey well the idea of aspiration much more than Labour, appealing to where people would like to be more than reflecting where they actually are. The Republican party have this sewn up nicely in the States as well. This is very different to saying that working class people are 'stupid'.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
Well, considering the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets.. no. Interesting you should refer to national socialism in Germany though...
That's actually very close to a flag. I realise your political ideas are a bit warped but that's just stretching things too far. You might want to retract that.
Why would that be a flag? Last time I did history (granted was 30 years ago) the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets and isn't national socialism where the word Nazi/Nazism came from? Nationalsozialismus.......? Or is @kentaddick saying they were left wing?
Anyway....... I think where he is right is on the Labour of old (pre Thatcher) was certainly a reason a lot of the aged 65+ people voted Tory in the past (and possibly still do).
And I remember Tories wearing badges saying 'hang Nelson Mandela' we could go on for hours but why not think for yourself rather than just dragging up any old bollocks.
Why personal attacks? Those people were despicable, but as i previously mentioned, the right dont have a monopoly on being disgusting people.
More frustration with your inability to discuss in any way other than conjuring up a straw man.
? Can you supply any evidence contrary to what i said?
In my rush to refute your absurd suggestions I should of course said like right wing dictatorships. All dictatorships are evil and as Cordoban posts likening any of of Britains politics to either extreme left or right wing is palpable nonsense.
But they were left wing dictatorships...
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
Can you tell me if the curtain that my grandparents peeped through also concealed the devastating policies of the right wing policies favoured by Nazi Germany ?
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
Well, considering the iron curtain was between the west and the soviets.. no. Interesting you should refer to national socialism in Germany though...
That's actually very close to a flag. I realise your political ideas are a bit warped but that's just stretching things too far. You might want to retract that.
To be fair I was on a wind up with that one, but the point remains, they used socialism as a title to appeal to the working class. They weren't left wing obviously.
So the earnings of the poorest have decreased in real terms while the earnings of the richest have increased in real terms. Not sure that can be argued. The gulf is big and it's only been getting bigger.
It is very interesting that some people liken the Labour party to communists though. It shows the power the media has when the reality is Labour's corporation tax policy is to have it at a rate lower than many right wing governments, that its nationalisation policies of rail and utilities echo policies in Germany and other non left leaning countries and it's economic policies are clearly capitalistic and are backed by many eminent economists. The student fee position is similar to many no left leaning governments, even Thatcher didn't think to impliment fees for University. The policies and manifesto are clearly social democratic and nothing more.
The challenge is to pick out one policy and challenge us not to find a non left leaning government in Europe that has something similar or even more radical! You won't be able to do it. So how can Labour be likened to communist dictatorships? - It is laughable.
So you didn't take your hat off to a party (the Tory's) that convinced people to vote for them that had absolutely no reasons to do so? Maybe you can clarify who are these people that had no reason to vote for a party but did?
No doubt we'll be back onto pensions shortly
Well I tried to explain what I meant and why your point was incorrect, but some people don't really try to undertsand the point being made. People like you
Of course, as you subsequently explained your specific point related to Brexit and even Trump despite mentioning neither in your post that I replied to
Any thoughts yet who these people are who you stated had absolutely no reason to vote for the Tories but did?
@kentaddick point re the left wing of "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to" seems to still ring true to me regarding your good self. Even IF you got your point across clearly doesn't mean everyone will agree with you, even the fools that voted Tory but had absolutely no reason to do so nor does it mean you are correct just because it is your view.
the beauty of democracy and politics, everyone can form an opinion and vote as they see fit even if that opinion isn't the same as yours. There is no right or wrong vote despite what you may think or chose to write. Writing that there were people who voted a particular way and had absolutely no reason to do so makes it sound like you know better than them.......
They are the many people who are worse off under the Tories! There are millions of them - surely you dont want me to name them all individually do you? When you make a point on here, you can't write a novel including every aspect of that point - you can later clarify if somebody doesn't get what you meant, but like I said - that is a waste of time with you. I didn't mention Brexit and Trump but explained that I was thinking of them in my assessment. That should give you an idea what my position is. Or at least it would most people!
It is very interesting that some people liken the Labour party to communists though. It shows the power the media has when the reality is Labour's corporation tax policy is to have it at a rate lower than many right wing governments, that its nationalisation policies of rail and utilities echo policies in Germany and other non left leaning countries and it's economic policies are clearly capitalistic and are backed by many eminent economists. The student fee position is similar to many no left leaning governments, even Thatcher didn't think to impliment fees for University. The policies and manifesto are clearly social democratic and nothing more.
The challenge is to pick out one policy and challenge us not to find a non left leaning government in Europe that has something similar or even more radical! You won't be able to do it. So how can Labour be likened to communist dictatorships? - It is laughable.
Indeed, comparing labour to communist dictatorships is laughable. However, Corbyn has repeatedly voiced his support and aspiration for Chavez's socialism in Venezuela. So much for being on the right side of history..
Comments
1. I agree with a lot of what you say, homelessness is something close to my own heart that no party in my lifetime has got remotely a grip on which really grates on me.
On tax, yes there is the headline reduction reducing the 50p to 45p, but there are other 'taxes' aside from the top rate of income tax that have changed which for all but the very richest have effected a lot of the higher earners (those above £150k but those also in the 40% band and above);
a) I agree personal allowance hasn't helped everyone and may well be offset in some instances with lower benefit payments. Additionally Personal allowance removal means someone earning £123k (although it tapers from £100k) now effectively pays 60% tax between that £100k and £123k, i.e. £4,600 per annum extra. That only balances out the reduction in 5p on the top rate if you earn in excess of £240k (i.e. you save 5% on £92k over £150k = £4,600). For anyone else it's not an insignificant amount @ £88 a week.
b) NI, any higher rate tax payer (40%) now pays 2% more NI on all money above that figure, this increased to 1% from I think about 2004 and then up to 2% in 2011. You also have the additional 1% below the UEL since 2011. Quick guess for me that's about £1800 a year/£35 a week.
c) if you have children and earn over £60k you now pay tax to the equivalent value of the Child Benefit. £20.70 a week for the 1st child and £13.70 a week for subsequent children. or £1,076.40 and £712.40 per annum. Think that came in January 2013? So for me that's £1,788.80 a year or £34.40 a week.
d) Pension contributions for the higher earners the tax has also increased dramatically. Pay the maximum £40k into pension and the additional tax to pay for doing so is £13,500 per annum or £260 a week compared to someone earning below £150k.
e) had labour got in then a further 20% VAT on school fee's would be circa £3,600 per child per annum/£70 a week.
So overall, I would say despite the decrease from 50p to 45p the tax burden on the richer in society (or those in the 40% band and above) is considerably more. On a purely personal note my tax since 2010 has probably increased by in excess of £1700 a month taking all of the above into account. Good job I didn't move house and take the whopping mortgage the bank offered (first world problems I know
2. I agree the extra 'income tax' labour were contemplating may only be £20 a week for someone on £100k but in the overall burden since 2010 it's considerably more and Labour also proposed the 50p rate at a much lower figure than the current 45p band, IHT etc etc. Just like many may say austerity has gone far enough (or to far) some will say so has taxation in certain areas/bands. You also had the extra 20% on school fee's as an example. I'm not a fan of private education but know many people who are who struggle monthly to meet the cost, they would simply have gone back into state education which I'm not sure would have helped anyone as the extra tax collected from that individual wouldn't cover the cost. As I've said many times I'm all for taxation going up across the board to fund public services better, I just thing labour went too far and there are other ways as well that we should be looking (efficiency, my note re schools wastage and real life examples springs to mind).
3. My company already have a Bermuda office (and domiciled company) and write an amount of business from there, it would literally take a few weeks to shift business, it is certainly currently more tax efficient but not currently hugely more profitable for various reasons. However if the tax rates moved as suggested by labour (both corp and private) the pendulum would swing massively one way and all I can say is what I said before as to what would happen. We don't have a need to be in the UK as most business is international anyway, so why stay when the key staff don't want to and the company cuts it's profits by doing so? In time for post brexit we'll be opening somewhere in Europe anyway (some already have with Ireland and Belgium being popular!) so at least in part some of the business and profit will go abroad.
4. I don't think you can say the current UK Labour Party are Center left? But suppose depends on your definition of the left. I'd have put a blair labour as center left.
6. Conservatives have many numpty politicians and agree with most of your list, my point wasn't necessarily who has the best MP's as that's debatable depending on your views but that Labour have a number of MP's and of that number I believe (happy to be proved wrong) that Corbyn has at his disposal a much smaller amount and ever diminishing amount to choose from.
Unless you think your grandparents should've been up for millions to be brutally murdered and millions more to starve.
Oh come on. The Soviet Union and Communist China were and are right wing dictatorships. You seriously believe all the "people's" army and "glorious workers" are anything more than propaganda and spin ? It's almost like believing "we're all in this together"
So your grandparents were supposed to shut their eyes and their ears and ignore what was happening in eastern europe and in china at the time?
I'm giving you a simple and pretty, in my mind, justified reason why some one would not vote labour at the time, and you're the one saying i'm talking nonesense after saying the only reason some one would vote tory back then is because they were idiots/lied to.
Bizarre.
They never cheered when nurses and firemen had their pay effectively reduced either.
They were certainly old enough to remember them.
I think I played the ball.
You do of course skip over the national (nationalist!) bit, but apart from that have a read about 'The Night of the Long Knives' and whilst they were by no means socialists (they were used to have street fights with communists and oppose social democrats) their leader Rohm did at least have different ideas to Hitler. The putsch basically consolidated Hitler and opened the door for the atrocities that followed.
Anyway....... I think where he is right is on the Labour of old (pre Thatcher) was certainly a reason a lot of the aged 65+ people voted Tory in the past (and possibly still do).
To be fair I was on a wind up with that one, but the point remains, they used socialism as a title to appeal to the working class. They weren't left wing obviously.
The challenge is to pick out one policy and challenge us not to find a non left leaning government in Europe that has something similar or even more radical! You won't be able to do it. So how can Labour be likened to communist dictatorships? - It is laughable.