Generally, after any terror incident, we have the following two trains of thought:
1) Don't react/rise to it. Keep going as is, keep acting lawfully, and remember that these people are not at all representative of the ideology they claim to adhere to.
2) Tighten up laws and security (e.g. the lethal injection comment). Perhaps increase state powers so we are better prepared to prevent terrorist attacks/apprehend the perpetrators.
By and large, you will find the "lefty soppy liberal naive wankers" under point 1, and the "right-wing fascist racist bastards" under point 2.
I'd like to take both points 1 and 2 to (what I see as) their logical conclusions, hopefully fairly balancing their upsides and downsides.
1) We create an environment more welcoming to marginalised; minority; or persecuted groups. We attempt to bond/socialise/identify with said groups, thereby (presumably) leading to fewer incidences of terror after we create a welcoming society in which there is no incentive to create division.
However, this comes at the risk of terror groups taking advantage of opening up a social dialogue, who would then continue to attack our freedoms/ideas/values/infrastructure/population.
2) We tighten up laws re terrorism. We hand over more powers to the authorities. This has the (presumed) benefit of ensuring fewer incidences of terror, as the authorities are better-equipped to prevent them. We would also be able to persecute terrorists to a greater extent, thereby disincentivising perpetrators from carrying out attacks.
However, this would potentially lead society as a whole to compromise certain civil liberties - e.g. freedom of speech; increased surveillance; special/emergency powers restricting freedoms for *all* in the event of a threat. In turn, this could lead toward more of a police state, with an increased societal division/less cohesion and cosmopolitanism. This in turn could lead to more marginalised people getting radicalised.
[NB I forgot to consider immigration/asylum, but basically 1) more open borders = better societally for already-settled minority populations, but more risk; and 2) closed borders = less risk, but possibly more marginalising for minorities.]
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Ultimately, I would guess that people like Leuth/Chizz/myself would take point number 1 over point number 2. That's because of the values we hold dearest - freedom of expression; movement; thought; and all those classically liberal ideas. This comes at a risk of safety.
Those who'd rather point 2, by extension, hold safety and a strong state safety net in higher regard, even if that means compromising civil liberties. This comes at the risk of a more fractured and divided society.
The question is - what do you hold dearest? For me, it will always be ideas, freedoms, and an open society.
... I'm not quite sure what my initial point was going to be, so much as - when you're debating with someone on such a topic, perhaps it's worth considering their values - and examining your own. I've thought about this and am willing to trade off safety for inclusivity (to be *very* basic about it). Others might not be.
I would fall firmly in the point 1 camp. Let the security services and police deal with these idiots and zealots using our existing laws.
I say this as whilst Toughening our stance may capture more terrorits it really does not make me much safer. The chances of me being impacted by a terrorist atrocity are virtually nil, and those chances are the same for all of us.
There are about 5 million tube journies made each day. Today 18 of those journeys were injured by a terrorist. That is about 0.0003% (my maths may be a little duff here as I am doing it in my head). That is pretty much zero chance.
About 35,000 people pass through Wimbledon station each day (based on 13,000,000 journeys per year). So about 0.05% of those using Wimbledon station today were injured. So again pretty much zero chance of being injured even if you used the station today.
Even on the individual train level the chances of being hurt were tiny. The train affected has a capacity of around 800, and by all accounts it was pretty much full this morning. Meaning that even if you were unlucky enough to be on that train this morning there was only a 3% chance of being one of those injured.
Essentially what I am trying to say is that when the chances of me being hurt are so low (and I write as someone who works in central London) the reasons to impinge on civil liberties to maybe reduce those odds to from virtually 0% to slightly nearly to 0% look a lot less compelling.
The great thing about Trump is he waits to get a detailed picture of events before passing comment. We're lucky to have such a shrewd and wise operator as President during these troubled times.
I think the USA should extend the travel ban to include European countries given recent terrorist events here.
The great thing about Trump is he waits to get a detailed picture of events before passing comment. We're lucky to have such a shrewd and wise operator as President during these troubled times.
I think the USA should extend the travel ban to include European countries given recent terrorist events here.
I would be happy with just extending the travel ban to Trump visiting the UK.
Mate we feel like a single parent with an incredibly difficult child. You have to understand we really relish the time when he's away. We finally get some bloody peace and quiet. Please do us this favor?
Whilst you're using this forum kindly spell favour correctly. Thank you.
The great thing about Trump is he waits to get a detailed picture of events before passing comment. We're lucky to have such a shrewd and wise operator as President during these troubled times.
I think the USA should extend the travel ban to include European countries given recent terrorist events here.
The great thing about Trump is he waits to get a detailed picture of events before passing comment. We're lucky to have such a shrewd and wise operator as President during these troubled times.
I think the USA should extend the travel ban to include European countries given recent terrorist events here.
I would be happy with just extending the travel ban to Trump visiting the UK.
Mate we feel like a single parent with an incredibly difficult child. You have to understand we really relish the time when he's away. We finally get some bloody peace and quiet. Please do us this favor?
Whilst you're using this forum kindly spell favour correctly. Thank you.
If Trump behaved like a normal politician and showed a bit of decorum then people might not comment on him. We need to find a solution to the problem which involves a bit of intelligence and not knee-jerk reactions.
There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from history.
But it's a thread about a bomb on a train in rush hour London. The thread, however, is taken over with anti Trump posts galore.
If Trump behaved like a normal politician and showed a bit of decorum then people might not comment on him. We need to find a solution to the problem which involves a bit of intelligence and not knee-jerk reactions.
There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from history.
But it's a thread about a bomb on a train in rush hour London. The thread, however, is taken over with anti Trump posts galore.
Trump made himself part of the story, and the thread hasn't been taken over - discussion moves around. The alternative is that we just keep repeating the same thing - "agggh terrorists are bad!"
Besides, it's worth finding out who the Trump supporters are in order to completely ignore them!
If Trump behaved like a normal politician and showed a bit of decorum then people might not comment on him. We need to find a solution to the problem which involves a bit of intelligence and not knee-jerk reactions.
There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from history.
But it's a thread about a bomb on a train in rush hour London. The thread, however, is taken over with anti Trump posts galore.
True, let's get back to the real issue. It must be Khan's fault he is mayor of London and a Muslim !
And still people would rather write about their hatred for a President based thousands of miles away, than the evil, twisted slags who plant bombs on a train. Unbelievable.
I agree, to a degree - and put my hands up to it.
But, if there is any solution to this, the President of the United States of America will have a full and crucial part to play.
Tbf, if the North Korean lunatic unleashed an H Bomb on another country tomorrow, some on here would blame Trump directly. The day is coming, on here, when poor old Donald is blamed for high inflation, me backing a short head loser and Charlton getting hammered by Gillingham.
They wouldn't mate they would expect trumpty to come and save them.
If Trump behaved like a normal politician and showed a bit of decorum then people might not comment on him. We need to find a solution to the problem which involves a bit of intelligence and not knee-jerk reactions.
There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from history.
But it's a thread about a bomb on a train in rush hour London. The thread, however, is taken over with anti Trump posts galore.
Because the President of the United States had a wholly inappropriate response to a terrorist act. Again.
He's the President of the United States. Theoretically Britain's closest ally. And he's just playing news pundit on Twitter. Possibly with Classified information.
Even Theresa May spoke out against it.
And once again, everyone here is anti-terrorism. Fuck terrorists. But we can both be wholeheartedly against terrorism and also say "what the President is is unintelligent and unhelpful."
Most people don't see it as necessary to attack the terrorists - only a few seem to demand it on every post, yet deride anything regarding sympathy or soludarity with the victims. Most of the posts regarding Drumpf arise because while he isn't responsible for a bomb on a train, he elbows into the debate with his dumb twitter comments. Look at N. Korea. He berated Obama over being weak, but now he is in charge and the situation is escalating out of control, he hits a reality wall that initiating a conflict there may well involve missiles falling on American cities and certainly his aliies in Japan and South Korea. It's always easy to mouth off about quick fire solutions when your daft ideas aren't put into practice. It's all different when your mistakes have consequences. The same applies ti Jihadist terror. The same few pop up after every attack demanding solutions, not prayers. Lethal injections eh? That'll make suicide bombers think twice. NOT. We are fortunate to have a great police force in the UK, and a system of law and order to be gratefull for. Sadly, the patriots would like us to tear that down and replace it with...what? Never hear solutions on these occasions.
Personally I don't really care what Trump has to say on the issue. I don't really think what he has to say on this attack is relevant. On diplomatic issues, sure, he's an idiot but it's not like he's entering a pissung competition with the united states of Jihadis. North Korea he can have some criticism on.
We get it, Trumps a bad guy, maybe best kept to the Trumps a secret Russisn thread or whatever it's called. In the scheme of things it's really insignificant right now what he says.
The thing that concerns me most right now is whoever has done this is presumably still at large with very little to lose.
Most people don't see it as necessary to attack the terrorists - only a few seem to demand it on every post, yet deride anything regarding sympathy or soludarity with the victims. Most of the posts regarding Drumpf arise because while he isn't responsible for a bomb on a train, he elbows into the debate with his dumb twitter comments. Look at N. Korea. He berated Obama over being weak, but now he is in charge and the situation is escalating out of control, he hits a reality wall that initiating a conflict there may well involve missiles falling on American cities and certainly his aliies in Japan and South Korea. It's always easy to mouth off about quick fire solutions when your daft ideas aren't put into practice. It's all different when your mistakes have consequences. The same applies ti Jihadist terror. The same few pop up after every attack demanding solutions, not prayers. Lethal injections eh? That'll make suicide bombers think twice. NOT. We are fortunate to have a great police force in the UK, and a system of law and order to be gratefull for. Sadly, the patriots would like us to tear that down and replace it with...what? Never hear solutions on these occasions.
You're right regarding the person who has blown themselves up, but behind these attacks, whatever the cause, theres usually other people involved who dont necessarily detonate the bomb, be it a suicide bomb or any other.
IMO if you're implicated in a terrorist bomb attack, whether it is successful or not, you should face the death sentence
Positive that nobody has died. We need to carry on as these people are pathetic losers and they can never beat us. That is all we can do, and the police will hopefully catch those responsible quickly. We ought to send them to Islamic State when we do - what is left of it anyway. That would soon put them off!
Most people don't see it as necessary to attack the terrorists - only a few seem to demand it on every post, yet deride anything regarding sympathy or soludarity with the victims. Most of the posts regarding Drumpf arise because while he isn't responsible for a bomb on a train, he elbows into the debate with his dumb twitter comments. Look at N. Korea. He berated Obama over being weak, but now he is in charge and the situation is escalating out of control, he hits a reality wall that initiating a conflict there may well involve missiles falling on American cities and certainly his aliies in Japan and South Korea. It's always easy to mouth off about quick fire solutions when your daft ideas aren't put into practice. It's all different when your mistakes have consequences. The same applies ti Jihadist terror. The same few pop up after every attack demanding solutions, not prayers. Lethal injections eh? That'll make suicide bombers think twice. NOT. We are fortunate to have a great police force in the UK, and a system of law and order to be gratefull for. Sadly, the patriots would like us to tear that down and replace it with...what? Never hear solutions on these occasions.
You're right regarding the person who has blown themselves up, but behind these attacks, whatever the cause, theres usually other people involved who dont necessarily detonate the bomb, be it a suicide bomb or any other.
IMO if you're implicated in a terrorist bomb attack, whether it is successful or not, you should face the death sentence
Sorry if some of you don't agree
It's not a question as such, and you don't need to apologise. I agree the helpers deserve the same treatment as the perpetrators. And I don't really care what happens to them. But there are always mistakes. And I don't want to see innocents executed by mistake because some mistake in the investigation. You can always let the wrongfully convicted out of prison. But you can't bring them back to life.
There were some very, very lucky people on that tube train this morning (although they may not be feeling so right so, quite understandably). I don't know what went wrong with the explosive device, but thank f**k that it did. The alternative scenario doesn't bear thinking about. I hope that those who were injured recover quickly.
So why are we talking about Trump! The man is an arse and his Tweeting whilst POTUS is an embarrassment; my personal opinion is that doing so if below the office of a president and cheapens it, but along with self indulgent, narcissistic arseholes the world over, he appears to have a Twitter addiction. He really should get help. In fact, he should just stop because he only damages himself further just about every time he indulges himself. However, he seems to be somewhat lacking in the self awareness stakes, so this fact is probably lost on him.
Having said that, criticising Trump is like shooting fish in a barrel, and the apparent competition to outcompete each other in insulting him by certain 'right on' types in this situation I do find irksome. I believe that it speaks of the same self regarding level of narcissism that we find in the orange one and that it is a conscious effort to deflect from the issue at hand.....another reason, for the hundredth time, to avoid confronting the serious problem that we face with Islamic terrorism.
I don't want to live in a Police State, either. However, more of the same, i.e virtue signalling, twitter hashtags and platitudes isn't going to cut it either. It hasn't worked and it will never will. Our weakness in doing so is being exploited by our enemies and things have got progressively worse as a result. We have tried inclusivity and all the rest; to ridiculous extremes, in fact. Guess what, the small Islamist fifth column which we welcomed into our country from the start are not going to respond to more hand wringing as they have deliberately excluded themselves from our society, they have not been excluded by others. They have no wish to mix with a people and culture that they regard as degenerate scum. You cannot reach out to those who have no wish to reciprocate and you cannot appeal to reason, either, as they believe in a set of iron age rules concocted by an infallible sky fairy.
Now I for one, am sick of this shit and I'm just as sick of the pathetic deflection and cover ups etc. and the constant excuses made for a disgusting minority that we should not tolerate to live amongst us. What's more, the presence of this fifth column of extremists in this country poisons the chances of there being a peaceful co-existence between Islam and our secular society. I think that such a move would mean that race relations would improve immeasurably and non Islamist Muslims would also cease to be held back by the extremist beliefs and malign influence held by some in their community and it would give the non-extremist majority the freedom to better integrate without being criticized and stigmatised by voices from their own community.
I believe that, unless we resolve this problem in a civilized, but firm and common-sense way, we will be bequeathing a situation to future generations that is unlikely to be resolved in a civilized way at all. Quite the reverse. First move, get everyone on a watch list out of the country, by hook or by crook, and abolish religious schools of all types. Then we can start to slowly move forward because at last we will have done something to address the situation. But do something we must.
Pmsl - people are criticised for being outraged about a failed bomb attack that could've killed a fair few people. But then some of those doing the criticising are outraged because someone's mentioned capital punishment.
If Trump behaved like a normal politician and showed a bit of decorum then people might not comment on him. We need to find a solution to the problem which involves a bit of intelligence and not knee-jerk reactions.
There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from history.
But it's a thread about a bomb on a train in rush hour London. The thread, however, is taken over with anti Trump posts galore.
True, let's get back to the real issue. It must be Khan's fault he is mayor of London and a Muslim !
What's Khan got to with anything I've posted ? Have I mentioned Muslim or Khan anywhere ? Where have I implied what happened today is anyone's fault ? I haven't even made a political point, left or right, on here.
Pmsl - people are criticised for being outraged about a failed bomb attack that could've killed a fair few people. But then some of those doing the criticising are outraged because someone's mentioned capital punishment.
Very crass post by the way Henry luv
No, crass was you saying you thought some terrorists were ok as "they were on our side"
Left v right, Trumpsters v snowflakes it's sad, predictable and probably unintentionally plays into the hands of these scum when instead of collectively and ratinionally getting heads together and forgetting political allegiance/worldviews and trying to solve this lunacy social and conventional media descends into a frenzy of extremes that climaxes after a few days and then is forgotten until being repeated until the cycle repeats with the next atrocity.
Instead ofor politicians,the media and it users clambering for capital or using it to justify their worldview whatever end of the spectrum a more logical and less emotive approach may yield more of a productive outcome than the current pattern of reaction.
Bend thy fookin knee n' stop the squabbling and we (society) might move towards eradicating this utter shit cuntery being foisted upon us.
Pmsl - people are criticised for being outraged about a failed bomb attack that could've killed a fair few people. But then some of those doing the criticising are outraged because someone's mentioned capital punishment.
Very crass post by the way Henry luv
No, crass was you saying you thought some terrorists were ok as "they were on our side"
Pmsl - people are criticised for being outraged about a failed bomb attack that could've killed a fair few people. But then some of those doing the criticising are outraged because someone's mentioned capital punishment.
Very crass post by the way Henry luv
No, crass was you saying you thought some terrorists were ok as "they were on our side"
Dry up ffs
Suddenly you're not so chatty.
Your support for terrorists was crass and hypocritical given how much you virtue signal your hard line anti-terrorist stance
Comments
I say this as whilst Toughening our stance may capture more terrorits it really does not make me much safer. The chances of me being impacted by a terrorist atrocity are virtually nil, and those chances are the same for all of us.
There are about 5 million tube journies made each day. Today 18 of those journeys were injured by a terrorist. That is about 0.0003% (my maths may be a little duff here as I am doing it in my head). That is pretty much zero chance.
About 35,000 people pass through Wimbledon station each day (based on 13,000,000 journeys per year). So about 0.05% of those using Wimbledon station today were injured. So again pretty much zero chance of being injured even if you used the station today.
Even on the individual train level the chances of being hurt were tiny. The train affected has a capacity of around 800, and by all accounts it was pretty much full this morning. Meaning that even if you were unlucky enough to be on that train this morning there was only a 3% chance of being one of those injured.
Essentially what I am trying to say is that when the chances of me being hurt are so low (and I write as someone who works in central London) the reasons to impinge on civil liberties to maybe reduce those odds to from virtually 0% to slightly nearly to 0% look a lot less compelling.
It's "off" by the way.
Besides, it's worth finding out who the Trump supporters are in order to completely ignore them!
Thoughts to all those affected. That's all that needs to be said at this point.
He's the President of the United States. Theoretically Britain's closest ally. And he's just playing news pundit on Twitter. Possibly with Classified information.
Even Theresa May spoke out against it.
And once again, everyone here is anti-terrorism. Fuck terrorists. But we can both be wholeheartedly against terrorism and also say "what the President is is unintelligent and unhelpful."
Most of the posts regarding Drumpf arise because while he isn't responsible for a bomb on a train, he elbows into the debate with his dumb twitter comments. Look at N. Korea. He berated Obama over being weak, but now he is in charge and the situation is escalating out of control, he hits a reality wall that initiating a conflict there may well involve missiles falling on American cities and certainly his aliies in Japan and South Korea. It's always easy to mouth off about quick fire solutions when your daft ideas aren't put into practice. It's all different when your mistakes have consequences. The same applies ti Jihadist terror. The same few pop up after every attack demanding solutions, not prayers. Lethal injections eh? That'll make suicide bombers think twice. NOT.
We are fortunate to have a great police force in the UK, and a system of law and order to be gratefull for. Sadly, the patriots would like us to tear that down and replace it with...what? Never hear solutions on these occasions.
We get it, Trumps a bad guy, maybe best kept to the Trumps a secret Russisn thread or whatever it's called. In the scheme of things it's really insignificant right now what he says.
The thing that concerns me most right now is whoever has done this is presumably still at large with very little to lose.
IMO if you're implicated in a terrorist bomb attack, whether it is successful or not, you should face the death sentence
Sorry if some of you don't agree
So why are we talking about Trump! The man is an arse and his Tweeting whilst POTUS is an embarrassment; my personal opinion is that doing so if below the office of a president and cheapens it, but along with self indulgent, narcissistic arseholes the world over, he appears to have a Twitter addiction. He really should get help. In fact, he should just stop because he only damages himself further just about every time he indulges himself. However, he seems to be somewhat lacking in the self awareness stakes, so this fact is probably lost on him.
Having said that, criticising Trump is like shooting fish in a barrel, and the apparent competition to outcompete each other in insulting him by certain 'right on' types in this situation I do find irksome. I believe that it speaks of the same self regarding level of narcissism that we find in the orange one and that it is a conscious effort to deflect from the issue at hand.....another reason, for the hundredth time, to avoid confronting the serious problem that we face with Islamic terrorism.
I don't want to live in a Police State, either. However, more of the same, i.e virtue signalling, twitter hashtags and platitudes isn't going to cut it either. It hasn't worked and it will never will. Our weakness in doing so is being exploited by our enemies and things have got progressively worse as a result. We have tried inclusivity and all the rest; to ridiculous extremes, in fact. Guess what, the small Islamist fifth column which we welcomed into our country from the start are not going to respond to more hand wringing as they have deliberately excluded themselves from our society, they have not been excluded by others. They have no wish to mix with a people and culture that they regard as degenerate scum. You cannot reach out to those who have no wish to reciprocate and you cannot appeal to reason, either, as they believe in a set of iron age rules concocted by an infallible sky fairy.
Now I for one, am sick of this shit and I'm just as sick of the pathetic deflection and cover ups etc. and the constant excuses made for a disgusting minority that we should not tolerate to live amongst us. What's more, the presence of this fifth column of extremists in this country poisons the chances of there being a peaceful co-existence between Islam and our secular society. I think that such a move would mean that race relations would improve immeasurably and non Islamist Muslims would also cease to be held back by the extremist beliefs and malign influence held by some in their community and it would give the non-extremist majority the freedom to better integrate without being criticized and stigmatised by voices from their own community.
I believe that, unless we resolve this problem in a civilized, but firm and common-sense way, we will be bequeathing a situation to future generations that is unlikely to be resolved in a civilized way at all. Quite the reverse. First move, get everyone on a watch list out of the country, by hook or by crook, and abolish religious schools of all types. Then we can start to slowly move forward because at last we will have done something to address the situation. But do something we must.
Very crass post by the way Henry luv
Where have I implied what happened today is anyone's fault ?
I haven't even made a political point, left or right, on here.
Instead ofor politicians,the media and it users clambering for capital or using it to justify their worldview whatever end of the spectrum a more logical and less emotive approach may yield more of a productive outcome than the current pattern of reaction.
Bend thy fookin knee n' stop the squabbling and we (society) might move towards eradicating this utter shit cuntery being foisted upon us.
Your support for terrorists was crass and hypocritical given how much you virtue signal your hard line anti-terrorist stance