The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.0 -
To sum up, the EU says the UK wants to leave, but still keep the benefits of being a member.
Come on brexiters, you won, get on with it, leave without a deal, you reckon you can manage it.
If the country suffers it is a price worth paying for, erm for, a price worth paying for all the, erm, well it's a price worth paying for no foreigners. Ah yes that's it, a price worth paying for no foreigners and blue passports and sovereignty for England eternally controlled by the ever present ruling class.
Brexiters, you won, get on with it and have a clean break, cliff edge hard brexit. Clearly the will of the people. Clearly not the will of nationalist racist morons, how very dare anybody could suggest that. True patriots welcome the break up of the country.
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Seth please mate, too inflammatory.seth plum said:To sum up, the EU says the UK wants to leave, but still keep the benefits of being a member.
Come on brexiters, you won, get on with it, leave without a deal, you reckon you can manage it.
If the country suffers it is a price worth paying for, erm for, a price worth paying for all the, erm, well it's a price worth paying for no foreigners. Ah yes that's it, a price worth paying for no foreigners and blue passports and sovereignty for England eternally controlled by the ever present ruling class.
Brexiters, you won, get on with it and have a clean break, cliff edge hard brexit. Clearly the will of the people. Clearly not the will of nationalist racist morons, how very dare anybody could suggest that. True patriots welcome the break up of the country.
I don’t doubt for one second that there are probably some very narrow minded bigots who did vote brexit because they want ‘their country back’, but there are also some very decent people who voted out because they believed it was the best thing to do
As before I know emotions run high but comments like that can throw this thread into a slanging match quite quickly and we want to keep it open for you all to post and share views etc
Cheers3 -
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
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By majority do you mean the 37% who voted Leave two years ago? A significant number who are now dead?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.1 -
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.8 -
Well saidcabbles said:
Seth please mate, too inflammatory.seth plum said:To sum up, the EU says the UK wants to leave, but still keep the benefits of being a member.
Come on brexiters, you won, get on with it, leave without a deal, you reckon you can manage it.
If the country suffers it is a price worth paying for, erm for, a price worth paying for all the, erm, well it's a price worth paying for no foreigners. Ah yes that's it, a price worth paying for no foreigners and blue passports and sovereignty for England eternally controlled by the ever present ruling class.
Brexiters, you won, get on with it and have a clean break, cliff edge hard brexit. Clearly the will of the people. Clearly not the will of nationalist racist morons, how very dare anybody could suggest that. True patriots welcome the break up of the country.
I don’t doubt for one second that there are probably some very narrow minded bigots who did vote brexit because they want ‘their country back’, but there are also some very decent people who voted out because they believed it was the best thing to do
As before I know emotions run high but comments like that can throw this thread into a slanging match quite quickly and we want to keep it open for you all to post and share views etc
Cheers0 -
How do you know their dead, did you know everyone who voted brexit. Bloody clever bloke if you do.Red_in_SE8 said:
By majority do you mean the 37% who voted Leave two years ago? A significant number who are now dead?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.0 -
I think he means 51.89 per cent of the vote. If you can't be arsed to vote, why should you get a say afterwards?Red_in_SE8 said:
By majority do you mean the 37% who voted Leave two years ago? A significant number who are now dead?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.2 - Sponsored links:
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You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
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Firstly, it is 'they're' not 'their' Secondly, Leave voters were overwhelmingly older than Remain voters. The laws of probability dictates that more Leave voters than Remain voters have died since the Referendum. That is an incontrovertible fact! I know you Brexiteers find it difficult to deal with facts and truth and reality!Chippycafc said:
How do you know their dead, did you know everyone who voted brexit. Bloody clever bloke if you do.Red_in_SE8 said:
By majority do you mean the 37% who voted Leave two years ago? A significant number who are now dead?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.3 -
Apologies. I shall rein it in.cabbles said:
Seth please mate, too inflammatory.seth plum said:To sum up, the EU says the UK wants to leave, but still keep the benefits of being a member.
Come on brexiters, you won, get on with it, leave without a deal, you reckon you can manage it.
If the country suffers it is a price worth paying for, erm for, a price worth paying for all the, erm, well it's a price worth paying for no foreigners. Ah yes that's it, a price worth paying for no foreigners and blue passports and sovereignty for England eternally controlled by the ever present ruling class.
Brexiters, you won, get on with it and have a clean break, cliff edge hard brexit. Clearly the will of the people. Clearly not the will of nationalist racist morons, how very dare anybody could suggest that. True patriots welcome the break up of the country.
I don’t doubt for one second that there are probably some very narrow minded bigots who did vote brexit because they want ‘their country back’, but there are also some very decent people who voted out because they believed it was the best thing to do
As before I know emotions run high but comments like that can throw this thread into a slanging match quite quickly and we want to keep it open for you all to post and share views etc
Cheers1 -
Would they be the older and less educated people who have spent their lives working and paying taxes to pay for the education of young better educated people?Stig said:You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
Obviously they should be grateful they were even allowed to vote.0 -
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.0 -
The vote is over.
The issue is what next.1 -
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?0
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The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.Southbank said:
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.7 -
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.CharltonMadrid said:The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
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My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.Stig said:
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.Southbank said:
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.0 -
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?Southbank said:
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.CharltonMadrid said:The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
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It's remarkable that nearly two years after the referendum some voters still don't get it. After all the evidence that's been presented before, and more significantly since, that we are never going to get a better arrangement after leaving than we currently have...some people still believe we can have our cake and eat it. It's purile and embarrassing for the UK's perception when we are going to have to negotiate our own deals soon.Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
All the arguments and supposed advantages for leaving put foward have continued to be systematically shot down since the vote. There are no wins. None. There is nothing for Leavers to point to as a Brexit benefit, now or in the future. There never was, apart from some faux victory for reclaiming alleged sovereignty which Leavers are clinging to like a life raft as our economy sinks and the gains we've made as citizens in the last 40 odd years are under threat.
When the only argument left is to blame the EU for not rolling over and having its tummy tickled, something that it made clear it wouldn't do from the start, the case for Leaving has been lost. As Seth says, they all knew what they voted for they all knew how it would work in the future and they certainly made enough noises about how awful the EU was and what to expect from them during and after our exit. So why are they moaning about it now?8 -
Are you saying that we should continue punching ourselves in the face just to show Brussels?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.1 -
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.Southbank said:
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.Stig said:
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.Southbank said:
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.5 -
1. They don't need the money.Southbank said:
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.Stig said:
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.Southbank said:
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?Stig said:
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
2. Others can vote to leave and trigger article 50 as the UK has done.
The EU can negotiate according to it's rules.
Leavers voted to separate from an entity because of what it is, they can't then expect that entity to become what it isn't.
A normal negotiation involves an acknowledgement of who you are negotiating with.
The EU has been pretty tolerant of the UK shambles, and devoted resources to try to get the process over and done with. The problem is that the EU is not keen on UK cherry picking when it only works one way.5 -
Lol the first says it all........desperate....seeing as your so clever, what are the laws of probability without googling it.Red_in_SE8 said:
Firstly, it is 'they're' not 'their' Secondly, Leave voters were overwhelmingly older than Remain voters. The laws of probability dictates that more Leave voters than Remain voters have died since the Referendum. That is an incontrovertible fact! I know you Brexiteers find it difficult to deal with facts and truth and reality!Chippycafc said:
How do you know their dead, did you know everyone who voted brexit. Bloody clever bloke if you do.Red_in_SE8 said:
By majority do you mean the 37% who voted Leave two years ago? A significant number who are now dead?Southbank said:
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.PragueAddick said:Looks like negotiations have gone swimmingly again this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/24/uk-chasing-a-fantasy-in-brexit-talks-top-eu-official-warns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.1 -
Sad that people can be taken in by the rubbish quoted from Sourbry, Heseltine, Clegg, Blair and Cable.
The ironic thing for me is May and Hammond are remainers at heart
and Corbyn has always been against the EU. Pure irony"0 -
A major problem was we got ridiculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate. Now the Brexiters have the affront to say we all knew we were voting to leave the Customs Union because the remainers told us that would happen. So during the referendum campaigning we were not supposed to believe them and after we are! You couldn't make up how weak that argument is!0
