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The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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It would be a real shame if this thread had to be closed, and it's obvious that it is the intention of one person to do so to avoid actual discussion. Being out of the country it offers a very useful insight and although the majority are remainers and are pointing out the problems of brexit I have appreciated some of the contributers who have decent points to make about leaving, like Stonemuse and Nick I think his name was.
Best as others have said to ignore those who want to antagonise or just repeat tabloid cliches. There is a big discussion to be had about the EU and its imperfections and leaving will obviously have a huge impact, especially on the next generation. It looks like it is going to happen so it would be good to see some kind of explanation about how it will work that doesn't revert to blaming the EU about everything or going on about conspiracy theories to take away accountability of those in charge of it. It is going to end up being a fascinating part of British history but at the moment how it will be looked back upon seems completely unclear and in the balance.2 -
This should be interesting for some.
EU's own survey results over the years.
http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/publicopinion/index.cfm
Looking at the latest country factsheets is fascinating.
The differing top priorities the (circa 1,000) people interviewed feel in say, Austria (immigration, 36% positive towards EU) against,say, Spain (pensions and unemployment, 33% positive view of EU).
Or looking at the Immigration opinions and seeing an almost 50/50 split positive /negative opinion of immigration in Germany, for example. In Denmark 70% feel immigration has integrated successfully.
http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/survey/getsurveydetail/instruments/special/surveyky/21692 -
Stig - I may need an explanation - the page you have posted is at odds with the individual country factsheets I'm looking through.
For example the 2018 Denmark (Health, Immigration and Environment being top concerns) sheet says 40% have a positive image of the EU, but your map (2017 but cant be much different) from the same site says 85%+.
Edit. Just seen the map is a summary since 1996.0 -
You are correct I did serve 30 years in the fire brigade and John Redwood is not someone I like.PragueAddick said:Don't talk tosh, @southbank. One of Johnson Gove or the Cartoon Aristocrat will be chosen as next Tory leader, and Labour under Corbyn will fail to defeat them because people like me cannot vote for them.
@blackpool72 I thought of a more precise question for you. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are or were in the fire service. That's a profession I admire, and I would vote for higher salaries for all of them. However John Redwood, when he was a Tory minister was not of that view at all. On the contrary he wanted to take away your right to strike. I am sure he still does, but he spends more time now advising clients at his investment bank to pull out of the U.K. How do you feel, lining up behind him?
But having said that under Blair it was John Prescott who was kicking the fire brigade in the bollox so from a firefighter 's point of view we have been screwed by both sides.
To try and answer you and Bournemouth Addick as honestly as I can my biggest fear over Brexit is the utter shambles of how it is being handled.
I know that you and a lot of other remainers never thought we would get a good deal in the first place and that's fair enough.
I also did not think that the EU would give us a good deal as it would encourage other countries to follow but never did I expect our side of the negotiations to be handled as poorly as this.
So to sum it up.
I still believe that in years to come other countries will leave the EU. (Greece and Italy) for starters and eventually the EU will collapse.
If and when this happens we will be in a stronger position having left beforehand.
But in the meantime I am as concerned as any Remainer about how the situation is being handled.14 -
Wrong.Algarveaddick said:
You don't expect an answer do you BA?Bournemouth Addick said:
That's fair enough. Look at it from another perspective though. What would have to change about the direction we are travelling for you to reconsider your existing position?blackpool72 said:
I'm not going over and over again with you.Chizz said:
What were they? And do you still stand by them?blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
And yes I would still vote the same way.
I've answered.2 -
Good answer. I have liked it for the fact it's someone bothering to answer a difficult and embarrassing question, not because I agree with all of the points made.blackpool72 said:
You are correct I did serve 30 years in the fire brigade and John Redwood is not someone I like.PragueAddick said:Don't talk tosh, @southbank. One of Johnson Gove or the Cartoon Aristocrat will be chosen as next Tory leader, and Labour under Corbyn will fail to defeat them because people like me cannot vote for them.
@blackpool72 I thought of a more precise question for you. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are or were in the fire service. That's a profession I admire, and I would vote for higher salaries for all of them. However John Redwood, when he was a Tory minister was not of that view at all. On the contrary he wanted to take away your right to strike. I am sure he still does, but he spends more time now advising clients at his investment bank to pull out of the U.K. How do you feel, lining up behind him?
But having said that under Blair it was John Prescott who was kicking the fire brigade in the bollox so from a firefighter 's point of view we have been screwed by both sides.
To try and answer you and Bournemouth Addick as honestly as I can my biggest fear over Brexit is the utter shambles of how it is being handled.
I know that you and a lot of other remainers never thought we would get a good deal in the first place and that's fair enough.
I also did not think that the EU would give us a good deal as it would encourage other countries to follow but never did I expect our side of the negotiations to be handled as poorly as this.
So to sum it up.
I still believe that in years to come other countries will leave the EU. (Greece and Italy) for starters and eventually the EU will collapse.
If and when this happens we will be in a stronger position having left beforehand.
But in the meantime I am as concerned as any Remainer about how the situation is being handled.
I do agree though, that a lot of people (actually on both sides) didn't think we would be able to secure a good deal. In fact I would go further - I don't think we ever had a chance of securing a good deal, because we already had the best deal we could have.
I can't comment with any experience on firefighters and their treatment by a succession of governments. But I think it's unlikely that they will get the support and funding they need (and deserve) from the bumbling buffoons who will ride on the back of Brexit to steal power.
But, for fronting up and giving a full answer, I salute you, Blackpool!7 -
Cheers Blackpool - keep it up. This thread needs more Leavers giving their views like this. Much appreciated.4
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No problem.CharltonMadrid said:Cheers Blackpool - keep it up. This thread needs more Leavers giving their views like this. Much appreciated.
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Fair play, and not a bad answer either. It was your previous "I'm not going over and over again with you..." golfie type answer that prompted it.blackpool72 said:
Wrong.Algarveaddick said:
You don't expect an answer do you BA?Bournemouth Addick said:
That's fair enough. Look at it from another perspective though. What would have to change about the direction we are travelling for you to reconsider your existing position?blackpool72 said:
I'm not going over and over again with you.Chizz said:
What were they? And do you still stand by them?blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
And yes I would still vote the same way.
I've answered.0 - Sponsored links:
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Is even the term 'deal', good or bad, helpful?
If the divorce analogy is correct the EU is the EU, the post referendum UK is the post referendum UK.
Going their separate ways.
We are not talking about a divorcing couple that want away but also want to meet for a bunk up every so often. That would be a deal, but this is not what is happening is it?
It is about dividing the spoils.
What is already owned by the EU stays with them, what is owned by the UK stays with them.
For anything jointly owned, as the UK initiated the divorce they make the first move and ask for what they want as their share, the EU reacts. Not so much a deal as reaching a civilized agreement.
As far as the EU is concerned the UK can then bog off into the arms of another and leave the EU to reconfigure how it wants.
Does that kind of stuff represent a 'deal', or more likely represent sorting the practicalities?
1 -
Cheers @blackpool72 . It's an interesting and insightful response. It's good to see some recognition that at least some Leavers have concerns over this governments handling of it. For me the task was always going to be way beyond them, not least of all because the tail is wagging the dog.blackpool72 said:
You are correct I did serve 30 years in the fire brigade and John Redwood is not someone I like.PragueAddick said:Don't talk tosh, @southbank. One of Johnson Gove or the Cartoon Aristocrat will be chosen as next Tory leader, and Labour under Corbyn will fail to defeat them because people like me cannot vote for them.
@blackpool72 I thought of a more precise question for you. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are or were in the fire service. That's a profession I admire, and I would vote for higher salaries for all of them. However John Redwood, when he was a Tory minister was not of that view at all. On the contrary he wanted to take away your right to strike. I am sure he still does, but he spends more time now advising clients at his investment bank to pull out of the U.K. How do you feel, lining up behind him?
But having said that under Blair it was John Prescott who was kicking the fire brigade in the bollox so from a firefighter 's point of view we have been screwed by both sides.
To try and answer you and Bournemouth Addick as honestly as I can my biggest fear over Brexit is the utter shambles of how it is being handled.
I know that you and a lot of other remainers never thought we would get a good deal in the first place and that's fair enough.
I also did not think that the EU would give us a good deal as it would encourage other countries to follow but never did I expect our side of the negotiations to be handled as poorly as this.
So to sum it up.
I still believe that in years to come other countries will leave the EU. (Greece and Italy) for starters and eventually the EU will collapse.
If and when this happens we will be in a stronger position having left beforehand.
But in the meantime I am as concerned as any Remainer about how the situation is being handled.
As interesting as it is, and I don't agree with your prediction of the EU's downfall at all, it's also a bit depressing that there is absolutely nothing that can be put forward to counter this view, other than the passing of time to prove it right or wrong. More so that there seems that there is no tipping point in the potential damage done to our country (with at least a section of voters if you're representative of them any way) before they are prepared to call off the gamble that drove their decision to back Leaving.6 -
Says the newbieBournemouth Addick said:
Bloody Jonniecomelatelys rocking up throwing their weight about, like they own the place...cabbles said:Just checking in on this for the first time since y’day evening. Chippy, the stuff about finding people and begging for a fanny as you so eloquently put it, is up there with some of the biggest waffle I think I’ve read on in my 8 years of being on the site and Chizz if you continue to bait him that’s not right either
You two will never see any common ground on this thread and any interaction is likely to end in the nonsense above, so I would simply ignore one another on here.
As before, we’re trying to keep this open for important developments over the next few months, be good if we could all rise above the nonsense
1 -
I guess in the same way that people who do not know that Cabinet and Parliamentary decisions are taken by majority votes were allowed to vote on anything.Algarveaddick said:
How can people who don't know Boris Johnson is foreign secretary be allowed to vote on anything?Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.1 -
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.3 -
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.3 -
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.2 -
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.7 -
In that case I take it you read every word of the Labour or conservative manifesto when you voted.randy andy said:
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.0 -
Do you know the difference between a general election and a referendum?blackpool72 said:
In that case I take it you read every word of the Labour or conservative manifesto when you voted.randy andy said:
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.0 - Sponsored links:
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Yes do youRed_in_SE8 said:
Do you know the difference between a general election and a referendum?blackpool72 said:
In that case I take it you read every word of the Labour or conservative manifesto when you voted.randy andy said:
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.0 -
The referendum was about the EU, not other bodies. If you vote to leave a body like the EU which usurps sovereignty then regaining sovereignty is implicitly the result.randy andy said:
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.0 -
Well it is not remainers of any description who will stop that 'proper brexit'. Not the remainers in Government, in opposition, in the streets or in the EU.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.
If a proper brexit means complete control over our borders it simply won't happen.
Or let me put that another way, brexiters have not suggested a workable and practical way to get complete control over the borders, and they have had a pretty long time to think up a solution, this is why I think it simply won't happen, and it is not the 'fault' of any remainers anywhere.1 -
I see where you're coming from regarding leaving means regaining a sovereignty of sorts, I mean Portugal won't be involved in UK business.Southbank said:
The referendum was about the EU, not other bodies. If you vote to leave a body like the EU which usurps sovereignty then regaining sovereignty is implicitly the result.randy andy said:
Don't remember seeing of those words on the referendum. And if that's the standard then we'd better leave the WTO and NATO as well.Southbank said:
Political, juridical and territorial independence-ie complete control over our government,laws and borders.seth plum said:
Could it be because no leavers know what a proper brexit is?Southbank said:
After the result of the referendum is carried out and we have left, then you will be perfectly within your rights to campaign for a referendum about us rejoining.randy andy said:
If that was the case, then why has the government pushed for a hard brexit at every turn. Why have they continually ruled out reverting to EEA and every other halfway house. If you're conspiracy theory was true then they could have so easily use all the leaver promises of a Norway option prior to the referendum to rubber stamp EEA membership 2 years ago.Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
They didn't do that, so your paranoid delusions are immediately blown out of the water.
We have a government pursuing a hard/no-deal brexit against all sane advice, we have leavers terrified of a second referendum as they know they'll lose their "will of the people" mantra if/when the numbers switch. I
When leave won 52-48 it was the will of the people to leave. If we had a second referendum and it was 55-45 to remain then you would claim that you brexit was being stolen, that it was the conspiracy to deny the people, but how can that be the case if it's the people who decide?
That's why you view point doesn't stack up, you only want to claim it's the will of the people when they agree with you. If they don't then it's because it's a remainer conspiracy. You are everything you've ever accused remainers of, and worse as you're a hypocrite too.
The paltry turnout for the anti Brexit demo, less than 1% of those who voted Remain,shows most Remainers have absorbed the fact that we are leaving in name only and nothing much will change.
It is only crazy Remainers who think there will be a proper Brexit, no Leavers I know think so.
However you slipped in there that the EU 'usurps' sovereignty, but it doesn't.
Whilst the UK was in the EU it had complete control of it's sovereignty by being a participant, nothing was wrested from the UK without agreement. Rules that became EU rules were influenced by, and accepted by the UK, and I am afraid that is true.
If the type of EU system seemed remote, or a different kind of democracy that is another story, and anyway the UK voted to leave all that.
However the EU did not usurp sovereignty.
It doesn't matter anyway because the UK voted to only stick by it's own decisions made by it's own system from now on.
Personally I think the UK system is rather a poor one, almost institutionally skewed, and I think the EU system is a hopeful on.
However to imply that the UK is moving from nothing to something is wrong. It is moving from something to something else.0 -
Who might that be then?Southbank said:
I guess in the same way that people who do not know that Cabinet and Parliamentary decisions are taken by majority votes were allowed to vote on anything.Algarveaddick said:
How can people who don't know Boris Johnson is foreign secretary be allowed to vote on anything?Southbank said:
I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power.PragueAddick said:
But do you never ever stop to look at the politicians who best express your Brexit and just wonder how you came to be in the same camp as them? Because you are putting them in power after you've got your Brexit, so if I were you, I would stop and ask yourself what plans they have for you, and what you are going to do if you don't like the answer.blackpool72 said:Prague mate.
My reasons for voting Brexit had nothing to do with Rees Mogg or Redwood.
Cheers.
Since the referendum British politics has been run by remainers in Government and in Parliament.
Their aim, transparent from the start, has been to end up with a Brexit in name only, which they are very close to achieving. The sad reality is that Brexit has not changed politics in this country. We still have two main parties with no good vision or programme for Britain, and in the main desperate to hold on to their Brussels connections so they never have to come up with a political programme we can buy into, but continue to rely on Brussels rule.
You wrote this "I think you are misreading politics in the UK if you think Brexiteer politicians are close to getting power." so you are clearly clueless.0 -
From Guardian today
'Half of voters believe there will be a “Brexit dividend” that could contribute at least something towards an NHS funding boost, the poll suggests.'0 -
@ThreadKiller where's that from?0
-
Was it from a Channel 4 programme last night?aliwibble said:@ThreadKiller where's that from?
I heard something about a four part, behind the scenes, series (but as it was very early, I could have been asleep).0 -
Which courts of law should oversee the UK's trade relations with the EU after we leave? (Assuming both that we do and that we are able to negotiate trade deals at some point in the future).1
This discussion has been closed.
