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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Just checked my passport, it runs out in Feb 2020.

    Wouldn't it be the crowning irony of this thread if I get a blue passport before my good mate @Chippycafc ??
    :-)

    Indeed.... Put it in your pocket with pride....
  • edited September 2018
    The biggest nonsense in all of this is that there is any likelihood of us leaving the EU without a deal without us having another vote on it. Parliamentary arithmetic should tell us this. The numbers for a hard Brexit are just not there. At the very least, there would be a vote forced on a hard Brexit, or another election. The Labour party which can be seen as not opposing Brexit has a clear line in the sand relating to a hard Brexit. As do sufficient Tories to make it impossible to get through. Both major parties might prefer another referendum which would clarify their positions in a subsequent election.

    That isn't to say I am not worried about a hard Brexit, but I don't think it is going to be landed on us - we are going to have to do more work to land it on ourselves.
  • The government is hoping that a fear of the no deal will help them get their deal through! We are seeing the real project fear now.
  • For so long the swivel-eyed loons preached that "no deal" was better than a bad deal. Now that they've realised that a)the deal they've drawn up is a bad deal, and b)no matter how bad a deal it is, it's still better than no deal at all.

    So they have to convince the public they repeatedly told that "no deal" isn't better hence then real project dear around what will happen if there is no deal. Rather than admit their proposed deal is terrible, all they can finish highlight how.much worse no deal will be. Expect more and more leaks about the consequences of no deal, to slowly ratchet up the pressure on accepting the dogs dinner May is offering us.
  • For so long the swivel-eyed loons preached that "no deal" was better than a bad deal. Now that they've realised that a)the deal they've drawn up is a bad deal, and b)no matter how bad a deal it is, it's still better than no deal at all.

    So they have to convince the public they repeatedly told that "no deal" isn't better hence then real project dear around what will happen if there is no deal. Rather than admit their proposed deal is terrible, all they can finish highlight how.much worse no deal will be. Expect more and more leaks about the consequences of no deal, to slowly ratchet up the pressure on accepting the dogs dinner May is offering us.

    I'm with you all the way apart from the last bit - the dog's dinner May is offering us will not get a majority in the Commons.
  • edited September 2018
    If I was a Brexiter I would be firmly behind the government's deal whatever it ends up being. A no deal is much more likely to ultimately result in remaining in the EU and leaving even if many things may not change to their liking is still leaving and a significant stepping stone. So it shouldn't be surprising when more and more Brexiters come to this conclusion.
  • Question Time was interesting last night, especially around the issue of a "peoples vote" (was is that in reality.....another Referendum ? If so, say so ).

    Theo Phapitis nailed it. What question are you going to ask ?? Labour bloke talked bollox again......in his scenario we would either accept it or vote against, which would mean staying in the EU. Seeing as we voted to leave that should mean we would all need to accept it otherwise the original Referendum isnt being adhered to. That being the case there is no point in having a "peoples vote".

    All immaterial as Chequers wont get through Michel Barnier. He had said as much & reiterated by Hillary Benn last week (who met with him as part of the Exiting the EU committee).

    Interesting times ahead.
  • edited September 2018
    I think we have missed our chance of a referendum which covers everything. We now have to wait and see - If the government does a deal - which I think it will of some sorts as it doesn't really have a choice- it might get it through the commons with the threat of a hard Brexit as the alternative, If it doesn't get through there will be an election though as a hard Brexit will not be accepted. I suspect Labour wont support any deal agreed and it won't be popular full stop, but it is going to be how much support May will get for it within her allies - If there is no deal there will be a second referendum and there will only be two choices - no deal Brexit or Remain. I am sure there is will be no appetite for either party to fight an election with that question up in the air!
  • Is Ian Bone the true face of the 'Remainers'?
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  • I think we have missed our chance of a referendum which covers everything. We now have to wait and see - If the government does a deal - which I think it will of some sorts as it doesn't really have a choice- it might get it through the commons with the threat of a hard Brexit as the alternative, If it doesn't get through there will be an election though as a hard Brexit will not be accepted. I suspect Labour wont support any deal agreed and it won't be popular full stop, but it is going to be how much support May will get for it within her allies - If there is no deal there will be a second referendum and there will only be two choices - no deal Brexit or Remain. I am sure there is will be no appetite for either party to fight an election with that question up in the air!

    Think there will be enough loony Tory MP’s to vote against any deal May manages to agree because they prefer a hard Brexit to any kind of Chequers style deal. Labour would be crazy to vote with the government given the consequences of the vote.

    I think that as soon as we arrive at the point where a deal is in the offing the Tory nut jobs will seek to oust May. The Conservatives are now so split and inward looking that what is best for the country is very much immaterial to the vast majority of them.

    I have no idea how this will pan out.

  • edited September 2018

    I think we have missed our chance of a referendum which covers everything. We now have to wait and see - If the government does a deal - which I think it will of some sorts as it doesn't really have a choice- it might get it through the commons with the threat of a hard Brexit as the alternative, If it doesn't get through there will be an election though as a hard Brexit will not be accepted. I suspect Labour wont support any deal agreed and it won't be popular full stop, but it is going to be how much support May will get for it within her allies - If there is no deal there will be a second referendum and there will only be two choices - no deal Brexit or Remain. I am sure there is will be no appetite for either party to fight an election with that question up in the air!

    Think there will be enough loony Tory MP’s to vote against any deal May manages to agree because they prefer a hard Brexit to any kind of Chequers style deal. Labour would be crazy to vote with the government given the consequences of the vote.

    I think that as soon as we arrive at the point where a deal is in the offing the Tory nut jobs will seek to oust May. The Conservatives are now so split and inward looking that what is best for the country is very much immaterial to the vast majority of them.

    I have no idea how this will pan out.

    But if they oust May/vote against a deal, they risk killing Brexit. The numbers just won't allow a hard Brexit. Maybe their plan is to win the argument in a second referendum as that is the only way a hard brexit can be achieved.
  • stonemuse said:

    seth plum said:

    I am conflicted. I accept the result. Don't want another vote. But hope brexit goes away somehow.
    The only position I find I can take is to challenge leavers to take responsibility, know what they're doing, and make it happen and take the blame (or credit!) for what follows.
    I am not prepared to help in any way as I don't see it as a doable job. I will await the benefits but expect to be long gone before anything good comes of this.



    So you and any other voter can engage with your MP or your local party (of whatever colour) and find out what they are doing and where they think the process is going next year.

    Leave or remain, this is what everyone should do.

    Ultimately, as I have stated from day one, I am sure there is another step to come ... whether it is put forward as a second referendum or hidden under a different name remains to be seen.
    Almost a year later and it gets closer.
  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?
  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?

    Can you expand on that bit @seriously_red ?
  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?

    Can you expand on that bit @seriously_red ?
    I’m not sure that it’s “stalled” certainly it is not being pushed hard at present but I think that’s as much about timing as anything else. It’s far too late for a new left centrist party to emerge and to impact on the mess we are in. I think it will gain traction and support when the time is right. For me that might not be be soon or ever. Much will depend on the Brexit outcome and what happens in 2022 or before at the polls. The mere fact that the conservatives are still in the game given their appalling time in office will be the key. Anything other than a Labour victory will signal time for sidelining the Labour Party as is and offer a softer more electable alternative to the Tories.

  • I think governing the country over the last couple of years has been a poisoned chalice. I'm not sure Labour would honestly have wanted the gig despite what Corbyn may say. The thing is, when May comes back with a rubbish deal or no deal at all, it will be easier for Labour. They will have something they can all oppose, Something more important than politics.

    May needs her party to rally round her, but that hasn't happened since the election and is even less likely going forwards.
  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?

    Can you expand on that bit @seriously_red ?
    I’m not sure that it’s “stalled” certainly it is not being pushed hard at present but I think that’s as much about timing as anything else. It’s far too late for a new left centrist party to emerge and to impact on the mess we are in. I think it will gain traction and support when the time is right. For me that might not be be soon or ever. Much will depend on the Brexit outcome and what happens in 2022 or before at the polls. The mere fact that the conservatives are still in the game given their appalling time in office will be the key. Anything other than a Labour victory will signal time for sidelining the Labour Party as is and offer a softer more electable alternative to the Tories.

    I think it will gain huge traction after Corbyn loses the next election and the extreme left refuse to losen their stranglehold over Labour.

    That is my hope, anyway.
  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?

    Can you expand on that bit @seriously_red ?
    I’m not sure that it’s “stalled” certainly it is not being pushed hard at present but I think that’s as much about timing as anything else. It’s far too late for a new left centrist party to emerge and to impact on the mess we are in. I think it will gain traction and support when the time is right. For me that might not be be soon or ever. Much will depend on the Brexit outcome and what happens in 2022 or before at the polls. The mere fact that the conservatives are still in the game given their appalling time in office will be the key. Anything other than a Labour victory will signal time for sidelining the Labour Party as is and offer a softer more electable alternative to the Tories.

    I think it will gain huge traction after Corbyn loses the next election and the extreme left refuse to losen their stranglehold over Labour.

    That is my hope, anyway.
    That's what I think will happen as well.
    Even if Labour get smashed at the next election the hard left will stand by Corbyn.
    That will leed to a new centre party being formed.
    Hopefully with a bright young charismatic leader like in France
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  • We are now entering the countdown to Brexit - wondering if a fresh approach required to the thinking?

    Doesn't matter how we all voted in 2016 nor what people think of Corbyn and how he handled the anti-Semitism row! Bottom line is that M.Barnier has stated that we (the UK) can cut a deal and therefore the UK is left with three options: no deal, abort the process or a deal as per M.Barnier and the EU27.

    May's task is to steer the Barnier proposal through Parliament! And one part of the broader landscape has been to extend Carney at the BoE. Make no mistake that Chequers is dead but at a certain point it will morph into whatever the EU are prepared to offer.

    Think about that and think clearly! The EU27 will offer a take it or leave it deal and this brings a moment of clarity...

    For this in turn determines the precise direction for the TUC and Labour to take - that's those who essentially represent organised labour and progressive values - they can back a people's vote but can they / will they insist Remain (abort article 50) is on the ballot paper?

    The fact is that our country is run by think tanks, the media and technocrats such as Barnier and Carney. "Take back control"? You're havin' a laugh! The ERG were simply pretending to represent a true Brexit philosophy but they can't put together a coherent proposal, nor do they have the numbers to topple May.

    Only the DUP can pull the plug but why would if that lets Corbyn in?

    By the way attempts to kick start a Macron/Blair third way pro Europe liberal metropolitan angle have stalled - about as much traction as Vince Cable! That discussion is for way after Brexit and possibly post Corbyn?

    As a nation we have dallied with the Alt-right and we now have an opportunity to tell them to fuck right off! It's not going to be simple/easy but those who deliberately bastardise Rousseau (will of the people) are extremely dangerous.

    Which is a neat Segway to the fact that the ERG have just folded on their Unicorn PhD response to the challenge. Why? They simply couldn't agree a position!

    A year ago I was hoping that the Tories would implode sometime around now but now the risk to them boils down to accepting and passing whatever Barnier has in mind. For sure the ERG and/or Labour might choose not to support the proposal. But that's impossible to predict without knowing what he has in mind.

    There's still time for a BINO Norway deal but nobody significant is backing that option. The irony of course is that when electorate is polled on no deal, remain or this new deal then the economics and ability to see real choices might lead to very different numbers compared to 2016. In summary, to avoid a hard Brexit there has to be a different question - and we simply don't know whether Parliament or the people will settle that question?

    Can you expand on that bit @seriously_red ?
    I’m not sure that it’s “stalled” certainly it is not being pushed hard at present but I think that’s as much about timing as anything else. It’s far too late for a new left centrist party to emerge and to impact on the mess we are in. I think it will gain traction and support when the time is right. For me that might not be be soon or ever. Much will depend on the Brexit outcome and what happens in 2022 or before at the polls. The mere fact that the conservatives are still in the game given their appalling time in office will be the key. Anything other than a Labour victory will signal time for sidelining the Labour Party as is and offer a softer more electable alternative to the Tories.

    I think it will gain huge traction after Corbyn loses the next election and the extreme left refuse to losen their stranglehold over Labour.

    That is my hope, anyway.
    That's what I think will happen as well.
    Even if Labour get smashed at the next election the hard left will stand by Corbyn.
    That will leed to a new centre party being formed.
    Hopefully with a bright young charismatic leader like in France
    Even if they don't stand by Corbyn, they will make sure a similar candidate leads the Labour party.
  • Survation's September poll has Labour four points ahead. What Labour has to do is perform marginally better than last time, they don't have to win the election for Corbyn to become prime minsiter. It has only been the DUP that has prevented that up to now. I am sure they would be further in front with a more centrist leader but that isn't the point.

    The next election will be fought under a different horizon in terms of Brexit. That is going to have the biggest impact on how it goes.
  • In light of Khan’s comments today the Labour Party conference will be very interesting. A declaration in support of a second referendum would be a big twist, I still don’t think a second vote will/should happen, but the chances of me being wrong are growing.
  • I think it is unlikely Labour will support the deal May is probably going to make and it has always had a line in the sand in terms of a hard Brexit, so I think the position is reasonably fluid. But I can't see anything changing until early in the new year.
  • The issue would be appropriately sorted in Parliament if that somehow could happen. It would I suppose be absolutely the will of the people and the brexit vote if that happened, because one strand of brexit was supposed to be about domestic sovereignty, and Parliament is supposed to be domestic sovereignty.
  • edited September 2018
    The most annoying thing to me has been the lies. I think it was probably this thread, but somebody posted a map of the world a while back showing the country that exports most to another country. So we are in fact the biggest exporter to Ireland so it showed a Union Jack over Ireland. Virtually every other country including our own had the German flag covering it. But we are told by discredited politicians like Liam fox that we need to be outside of the EU to strike the favourable trade deals.

    How does Germany manage it then? And what's the betting that union jack over Ireland would soon become the german flag if we do leave?
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!