It would of course help in the Conservative party were united and went into negotiations from a position of strength, but they have been negotiating with themselves whilst trying to negotiate with the EU. If anybody from either side of the argument can't see how ridiculous that is, I despair. It is farcical but not funny due to the danger it presents.
One look at the Tory front bench most of the political strata in the UK tells you all you need to know about institutional incompetence.
Fixed it for you
Whilst it is perfectly reasonable to be unhappy with all major parties, only this government is responsible for the mess we are in. They have been doing the negotiating since article 50 was invoked. I have been critical of Europe, but the incompetence of this government prevents us really being too critical of them. Everytime May tries to get a position to negotiate around, she has to look around her left shoulder or her right one. How is it possible to sort out a deal when you don't even know what deal you want!
I suppose there was an attempt to get there with Chequers, and incredibly late one, but we all know that is dead in the water. Again she can't even get her own people to support it. You may profoundly disagree with Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon and you may think they would not have done any better, but the Conservative party was responsible for this debacle from beginning to end. What we end up with if we don't step off the edge of the cliff will satisfy neither Brexiters nor remainers. The pain we all suffer won't be anybody's fault. Or at least that is what we will be told.
Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
- Sturgeon wouldn’t have taken us out of the EU at all, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Cable probably would have done the above or signed an EEA/Norway type deal, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Corbyn would have nationalised the entire country and turned us into a socialist state with no desire to trade with the capitalist EU, unbelievably that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
Very easy to prove in terms of Brexit actually as it was Cameron's big idea to unite his party. In fact there probably isn't anything easier to prove!
Proving their level of competence to run the country - yes fair enough, but if we want to blame them for this mess too we may be being slightly unfair here.
And to be fair - If the Conservative party was united enough, they would almost certainly have made a better shot of it! In fact we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. And it is difficult to see how the party is going to get through this without massive damage.
Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
Very easy to prove in terms of Brexit actually as it was Cameron's big idea to unite his party. In fact there probably isn't anything easier to prove!
Proving their level of competence to run the country - yes fair enough, but if we want to blame them for this mess too we may be being slightly unfair here.
And to be fair - If the Conservative party was united enough, they would almost certainly have made a better shot of it! In fact we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. And it is difficult to see how the party is going to get through this without massive damage.
We will have to disagree. If in the same position, I believe they would have screwed up too.
Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
- Sturgeon wouldn’t have taken us out of the EU at all, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Cable probably would have done the above or signed an EEA/Norway type deal, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Corbyn would have nationalised the entire country and turned us into a socialist state with no desire to trade with the capitalist EU, unbelievably that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
But would they? If they were actually in power, would they really have gone against the referendum result? I am doubtful.
The problem is of course is that all the people campaigning for Brexit have f****d off! The best solution would have been to let them negotiate it as per their promises to us and then have a vote to decide whether they got the right deal - basically what they promised.
Impossible to prove but I very much doubt any of Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon would have been any improvement whatsoever.
- Sturgeon wouldn’t have taken us out of the EU at all, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Cable probably would have done the above or signed an EEA/Norway type deal, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Corbyn would have nationalised the entire country and turned us into a socialist state with no desire to trade with the capitalist EU, unbelievably that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
But would they? If they were actually in power, would they really have gone against the referendum result? I am doubtful.
Sturgeon 100% would.
I know the point your making - “all our politicians are rubbish/as bad as each other”etc - and to some extent I agree, but I genuinely don’t think this could have gone any worse than it has under Theresa May.
The problem is of course is that all the people campaigning for Brexit have f****d off! The best solution would have been to let them negotiate it as per their promises to us and then have a vote to decide whether they got the right deal - basically what they promised.
I’ll go back to my post of a year ago ... if there had been real ambition for proper negotiation, it could have happened:
“Twenty plus years ago, the French PM propounded that the EU should be made up of three concentric circles, an inner core of the single currency, a middle tier of those in the EU but not the single currency, and an outer circle of non-members with close links to the EU. This is an idea that I like – many have suggested it since, but it has never obtained the requisite support. Maybe it will now?
In his book, Nick Clegg highlights that the Brussels-based think tank Bruegel published, in August 2016, a paper calling for a ‘continental partnership’ – a new form of ‘outer circle’ for a post-Brexit UK and other non-EU countries that want to belong to the Single Market and have some say over its rules but don’t want to play a part in the political institutions of the EU. Then, in March 2017, the European Commission published a document setting out five scenarios for the future of the EU, proposing sub-groups of member states pursuing their own integration agendas - this is far more palatable to me: a ‘multi-speed’ Europe’. So I am open to changing my mind despite what some have said.”
This makes a lot of sense @stonemuse - good to have you back contributing on here. Always enjoy your posts though don't always agree with them, and it gives hope for Brexit if there are moderate voices like yours. Much better debate than all the 'traitor'/conspiracy theory nonsense.
This makes a lot of sense @stonemuse - good to have you back contributing on here. Always enjoy your posts though don't always agree with them, and it gives hope for Brexit if there are moderate voices like yours. Much better debate than all the 'traitor'/conspiracy theory nonsense.
I’m on a business trip to Tbilisi next week ... main topic is international trade.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Forgive me for disagreeing, but, if a scenario whereby the border in Ireland can remain as it currently is (and thus occupies a position which, every economist or business leader I have heard agrees, offers an outstanding economic opportunity for Northern Ireland, possibly even good enough to prevent it costing the UK in excess of £10 billion a year, and it might be a net contributor to the Exchequer), that is in no way a victory for the IRA.
A determination to learn from history, and to avoid recreating the divisions and violence of the past, runs through the vast majority here, who, despite the impression I may give, are fundamentally decent and welcoming people (unlike the politicians that "represent" us). They, and the PSNI, are the ones who seek to prevent a hard border, not the IRA, or any of its dissident bastard sons.
Look at what the EU is offering to Northern Ireland to preserve, if not peace, the absence of conflict. It is a tremendous opportunity, and would, in fact, be as close as anyone will ever get to having cake and eating it.
Yes, things might have been different, if there had never been the Troubles, or periodic IRA campaigns after the War of Independence, or the sectarian Stormont regime that generated the Northern Ireland Civil Rights movement, or the Easter Rising, or the Larne gun-running/The Ulster Solemn League and Covenant/the Curragh Mutiny, or the Land League, or Parnell, or Young Ireland, or Daniel O'Connell, or the United Irishmen, or the Peep O' Day boys, or the Defenders (and lots of other secret societies), or the Penal Laws, or the Battles of Aughrim and the Boyne, or Cromwell, or the 1641 rebellion, or the Flight of the Earls, or the several Plantations of Ireland, or Pope Adrian IV, or Strongbow, or, or, or...
The problem is that these things, rather appropriately many of which were shit, happened. And the UK Government has to negotiate within that context.
We cannot escape our histories, all we can do is mitigate the divisions that they create between us. This, signally, the DUP are failing to do, and seem motivated by a desire more to magnify such division than anything else.
Accession is a process, and Mr. Juncker's term ends next year - even if it didnt, he does not have the power to make decisions about expansion or otherwise - it's unlikely that any of the accession states are on the cusp of finally joining. But they are on a path to EU membership, and I'd expect will continue along it, unless Mr. Putin and his friends are successful.
The decision about expansion rests with the member states, as does that of deepening EU structures, which may also happen, but is also unlikely in the short term.
I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!
True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
The loyalists have a cause which is to maintain a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is a GFA because the Blair government convinced both sides to maintain and adhere to a ceasefire and an agreement was found which recognised both traditions simultaneously.
At the same time Ireland dropped its constitutional claim to the six counties in the north. Was that a victory for loyalists or simply a victory for peace after three decades of violence?
What has been noted is that the outbreak of English nationalism of late exposes a complete disregard for both unions. However, it appears that Olly Robins and his opposite number are negotiating a Brexit deal which has the potential not to undermine the GFA.
The irony is that this deal might lead to a long term transition period and/or near permanent membership of a Customs Union. Given that Leave were deliberately ambiguous about the type of Brexit they wished for during the 2016 referendum, it's a tad strange that they now complain.
Naturally the ERG and DUP are very vocal about what they cannot tolerate without prescribing actual solutions.
Brexit interview with Steve Parish is interesting. In short he feels Brexit is an opportunity for PL clubs to roam around the world hoovering up the best young talent on the cheap.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
The last time I looked, the Good Friday Agreement was a peace agreement and had nothing to do with Brexit. The reasons there was a conflict are still bubbling under the surface and finding a way to stop the bombings and deaths has to be a good thing rather than a bad. I would go as far to suggest the fact that we were all in the EU might have helped in the negotiations which is a big part of the issue Brexit faces.
As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.
Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. Their primary goal hasn't been achieved. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and were easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.
To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.
The EU have been clear that the other solution - a customs union has to be permanent. I'm sure there may be some wriggle room if the end date was put far enough in the future but I suspect that won't wash with too dissenters in May's party.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
The last time I looked, the Good Friday Agreement was a peace agreement and had nothing to do with Brexit. The reasons there was a conflict are still bubbling under the surface and finding a way to stop the bombings and deaths has to be a good thing rather than a bad. I would go as far to suggest the fact that we were all in the EU might have helped in the negotiations
As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.
Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and was easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.
To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.
Yes, I totally agree with you. I get the point about the Loyalists in NI - its just I've not experienced it living in the UK all my life. I would add that I doubt the Loyalists "cause" would be as strong if it wasn't for the IRA....but we'll park that one there.
The main thing, and you alluded to it yourself, is that the UK's involvement in the EU postdates the troubles (I'll ignore the 1975 Referendum as that was us joining the "Common Market" and it has gone way beyond that now) and as such it is nigh on impossible to leave the EU now because the UK lives cheek by jowl to a member state, and one that neither side wants to make any trouble distancing themselves from.
I just wonder how the Americans would deal with a situation where Texas wanted to leave "The Union".
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
The last time I looked, the Good Friday Agreement was a peace agreement and had nothing to do with Brexit. The reasons there was a conflict are still bubbling under the surface and finding a way to stop the bombings and deaths has to be a good thing rather than a bad. I would go as far to suggest the fact that we were all in the EU might have helped in the negotiations
As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.
Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and was easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.
To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.
Yes, I totally agree with you. I get the point about the Loyalists in NI - its just I've not experienced it living in the UK all my life. I would add that I doubt the Loyalists "cause" would be as strong if it wasn't for the IRA....but we'll park that one there.
The main thing, and you alluded to it yourself, is that the UK's involvement in the EU postdates the troubles (I'll ignore the 1975 Referendum as that was us joining the "Common Market" and it has gone way beyond that now) and as such it is nigh on impossible to leave the EU now because the UK lives cheek by jowl to a member state, and one that neither side wants to make any trouble distancing themselves from.
I just wonder how the Americans would deal with a situation where Texas wanted to leave "The Union".
Yes we agree - the loyalists have Northern Ireland as part of the UK and not Ireland - the Republicans don't have the united Ireland they have been fighting for. I don't think we can claim they have won.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
Oh that it were that simple. So all the other problems and issues that we have been and still are telling you about, would simply go away?
Why can you not just hold your hands up and say "I got it wrong", Golfie? Why is that so hard?
You chose to ignore all the information and warnings us remainers gave you, and decided to believe the side of a bus, and a bunch of liars with their own political ambitions and self interest at heart. You were one of a few million, you do not bare this burden alone, but your continual attempts at self justification and search for "reasons" why you were duped does you no favours, sir.
I heard once that getting others or even yourself to change your opinion can take 10 years. That is why elections are won and lost on the people who don't have a strong opinion either way.
There was a good item on ITV news last night showing the difficulty and real risks for Northern Ireland if the border issue is not sorted. It really clarified the issue May has. The DUP wont agree to an open border localised customs union with customs checks between the UK and Northern Ireland, which is the EU proposed solution. The hard liners within the Tory party will not agree to a permanent customs union to solve the problem. May has persuaded a few - maybe enough to agree to it with an end date, but the EU is insistent it would only agree this as a permanent solution.
With Irish republicans armed and ready to attack any border from an interview on the same item, we are heading for a total mess. People wonder why remainers are so firm in their anger at the mess that has been needlessly created. Well that should explain it. I am livid and I am not even a great fan of Europe. The Irish consequences are even more frightening than the economic ones, and they are pretty frightening. I am getting a stronger opinion each day that we have to stop this madness whilst we still can. We need to try to save this country from itself. And when I say we, it isn't political - we need conservatives, socialists and liberals to work together to prevent a disaster.
If we weren't joined to Ireland then it would all have been sorted months ago. Brexit, as it was "sold" to the electorate will never happen. It can't. In the interim we will get some more glorious (Devon) fudge.....disguised as a Customs Union & then pergotory until one brave PM decides we should rejoin the EU.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
Do you really mean this post? The IRA have won? How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'? Anyway won what? The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British. Isn't that the real victory? You go on to say: 'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.' You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake? Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'? You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
I said that the IRA have won because as a Londoner growing up in the 70's I was only too aware of IRA bombings. I cant say much about the Loyalists as I haven't lived in Ireland but suffice to say they weren't fighting for a cause.....more just fighting the IRA in a tit for tat way.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
But it isn't a fact, even if you would like it to be. Loyalists have continually been fighting/struggling for their 'cause'. Are you not aware of the 'orange' culture and it's manifestations. The IRA didn't start and then the loyalists follow on in a tit for tat scenario in the era we lived through, that notion is a typical English mis-reading of the situation in one of it's colonies. To describe the Good Friday Agreement as a problem for the UK is quite wrong, the UK itself partially brokered and then signed the GFA, an international treaty. The GFA was not something dreamed up by the IRA to muck up brexit. In my view, and I suspect the view of others, your reading of the Irish situation is typical of many brexiters and really quite ignorant of reality.
Comments
I suppose there was an attempt to get there with Chequers, and incredibly late one, but we all know that is dead in the water. Again she can't even get her own people to support it. You may profoundly disagree with Corbyn, Cable or Sturgeon and you may think they would not have done any better, but the Conservative party was responsible for this debacle from beginning to end. What we end up with if we don't step off the edge of the cliff will satisfy neither Brexiters nor remainers. The pain we all suffer won't be anybody's fault. Or at least that is what we will be told.
- Cable probably would have done the above or signed an EEA/Norway type deal, that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
- Corbyn would have nationalised the entire country and turned us into a socialist state with no desire to trade with the capitalist EU, unbelievably that sounds like an improvement over this nonsense
Proving their level of competence to run the country - yes fair enough, but if we want to blame them for this mess too we may be being slightly unfair here.
And to be fair - If the Conservative party was united enough, they would almost certainly have made a better shot of it! In fact we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. And it is difficult to see how the party is going to get through this without massive damage.
I know the point your making - “all our politicians are rubbish/as bad as each other”etc - and to some extent I agree, but I genuinely don’t think this could have gone any worse than it has under Theresa May.
“Twenty plus years ago, the French PM propounded that the EU should be made up of three concentric circles, an inner core of the single currency, a middle tier of those in the EU but not the single currency, and an outer circle of non-members with close links to the EU. This is an idea that I like – many have suggested it since, but it has never obtained the requisite support. Maybe it will now?
In his book, Nick Clegg highlights that the Brussels-based think tank Bruegel published, in August 2016, a paper calling for a ‘continental partnership’ – a new form of ‘outer circle’ for a post-Brexit UK and other non-EU countries that want to belong to the Single Market and have some say over its rules but don’t want to play a part in the political institutions of the EU. Then, in March 2017, the European Commission published a document setting out five scenarios for the future of the EU, proposing sub-groups of member states pursuing their own integration agendas - this is far more palatable to me: a ‘multi-speed’ Europe’. So I am open to changing my mind despite what some have said.”
Will be interesting to hear their thoughts.
I can't help thinking the IRA have won. If it wasnt for "the troubles" then the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.
The IRA have won?
How come you don't say that loyalist terrorists have 'won'?
Anyway won what?
The IRA or whatever rump or embers of that lot that may still exist didn't persue brexit, and the referendum and whatnot, the Tory party did. Brexiters had no mind for the Belfast Agreement which is actually the phenomena that seems to have 'won' up to now, those keen on Irish Nationalism or a United Ireland have been largely quietened and been able to rub along comparatively peacefully with those who believe that a specific geographical territory ought to be British.
Isn't that the real victory?
You go on to say:
'the UK (inc NI) could just build a hard border & be done with it.'
You use the word 'just' and i wonder why. Because the building of a hard border would be a piece of cake?
Leaving aside the political and historic context, you have over 400Km of distance and nearly 300 known crossing points, how practical do you envisage that to be to 'just build a hard border'?
You start by saying 'if we weren't joined to Ireland' as if it it some kind of surprise. The UK is joined to the Republic because of centuries of history and indeed bloodshed, and it wasn't the doing of the IRA. The IRA is a manifestation of the bloody history in which the greater UK is complicit up to it's elbows.
A determination to learn from history, and to avoid recreating the divisions and violence of the past, runs through the vast majority here, who, despite the impression I may give, are fundamentally decent and welcoming people (unlike the politicians that "represent" us). They, and the PSNI, are the ones who seek to prevent a hard border, not the IRA, or any of its dissident bastard sons.
Look at what the EU is offering to Northern Ireland to preserve, if not peace, the absence of conflict. It is a tremendous opportunity, and would, in fact, be as close as anyone will ever get to having cake and eating it.
Yes, things might have been different, if there had never been the Troubles, or periodic IRA campaigns after the War of Independence, or the sectarian Stormont regime that generated the Northern Ireland Civil Rights movement, or the Easter Rising, or the Larne gun-running/The Ulster Solemn League and Covenant/the Curragh Mutiny, or the Land League, or Parnell, or Young Ireland, or Daniel O'Connell, or the United Irishmen, or the Peep O' Day boys, or the Defenders (and lots of other secret societies), or the Penal Laws, or the Battles of Aughrim and the Boyne, or Cromwell, or the 1641 rebellion, or the Flight of the Earls, or the several Plantations of Ireland, or Pope Adrian IV, or Strongbow, or, or, or...
The problem is that these things, rather appropriately many of which were shit, happened. And the UK Government has to negotiate within that context.
We cannot escape our histories, all we can do is mitigate the divisions that they create between us. This, signally, the DUP are failing to do, and seem motivated by a desire more to magnify such division than anything else.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
I think we can all agree that Brexit is fucked mainly due to the "Irish problem". A problem that doesnt seem to exist for many other countries that have land borders. Why is it such a problem for the UK.....I would suggest because of The Good Friday agreement. And why is there a GFA.....because of the IRA.
may be a simplistic way of looking at it, but its a fact.
At the same time Ireland dropped its constitutional claim to the six counties in the north. Was that a victory for loyalists or simply a victory for peace after three decades of violence?
What has been noted is that the outbreak of English nationalism of late exposes a complete disregard for both unions. However, it appears that Olly Robins and his opposite number are negotiating a Brexit deal which has the potential not to undermine the GFA.
The irony is that this deal might lead to a long term transition period and/or near permanent membership of a Customs Union. Given that Leave were deliberately ambiguous about the type of Brexit they wished for during the 2016 referendum, it's a tad strange that they now complain.
Naturally the ERG and DUP are very vocal about what they cannot tolerate without prescribing actual solutions.
https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/steve-parish-interview-crystal-palace-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
As somebody like yourself who lived through the bombings in the 70s - I even recall hearing one go off, I think it was a fantastic development to an issue that there looked no solution to. Again, having lived through it, I think not going back thre or risking going back there is more important than anything.
Building walls and barriers is not the solution and never will be. The IRA haven't won - nobody has won. Their primary goal hasn't been achieved. We have found a way to have a bit more tolerance of each other and save innocent lives. The problem is a problem because of the problems in Ireland, but these pre-date the EU and were easily predictable. That we had politicians insulting our intelligence and telling us it wouldn't be is disgusting and disgraceful.
To claim the loyalists don't have a cause is ridiculous. They have as much a cause as republicans. Their causes are the opposite of each other but causes all the same. In fact it is the DUP that have scuppered one of the most workable solutions, putting their cause ahead of pragmatism.
The EU have been clear that the other solution - a customs union has to be permanent. I'm sure there may be some wriggle room if the end date was put far enough in the future but I suspect that won't wash with too dissenters in May's party.
The main thing, and you alluded to it yourself, is that the UK's involvement in the EU postdates the troubles (I'll ignore the 1975 Referendum as that was us joining the "Common Market" and it has gone way beyond that now) and as such it is nigh on impossible to leave the EU now because the UK lives cheek by jowl to a member state, and one that neither side wants to make any trouble distancing themselves from.
I just wonder how the Americans would deal with a situation where Texas wanted to leave "The Union".
Why can you not just hold your hands up and say "I got it wrong", Golfie? Why is that so hard?
You chose to ignore all the information and warnings us remainers gave you, and decided to believe the side of a bus, and a bunch of liars with their own political ambitions and self interest at heart. You were one of a few million, you do not bare this burden alone, but your continual attempts at self justification and search for "reasons" why you were duped does you no favours, sir.
Loyalists have continually been fighting/struggling for their 'cause'. Are you not aware of the 'orange' culture and it's manifestations. The IRA didn't start and then the loyalists follow on in a tit for tat scenario in the era we lived through, that notion is a typical English mis-reading of the situation in one of it's colonies.
To describe the Good Friday Agreement as a problem for the UK is quite wrong, the UK itself partially brokered and then signed the GFA, an international treaty. The GFA was not something dreamed up by the IRA to muck up brexit.
In my view, and I suspect the view of others, your reading of the Irish situation is typical of many brexiters and really quite ignorant of reality.
https://europaunited.eu/2018/10/12/ratings-over-reality-who-questions-question-time/