I don't for one minute think that German goods are not great quality. They have for years always tried to improve their products and give people what they want to buy - whereas Jeremy Clarkson's three words which were wrong with the Britsih car industry ring true 'That Will do!'. But whilst the Germans are good at making things people want, it is wrong to ignore that the Euro doesn't help them greatly selling even more of their products for obvious reasons!
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I understand that Cambridge Audio is a Uk domiciled business, with appropriate CIT arrangements, whose main value creating employees are also located here. Do let me know if I am wrong.
Next?
I'd argue your last statement but that's not the point...Honda UK might be a subsidiary for Honda Motors but they are still a UK company manufacturing goods in the UK.
For the current production cycle of civics, then after the monumental hare kare clusterfumble shitfest of the UK's witless stumble out of the EU Honda will lose all its economic reasons for making stuff here and its UK manufacturing operation will be gone inside 10 years, with dreadful consequences for Swindon's employment figures. Copy and paste for: Toyota Burnaston, Nissan Tyne & Wear: Mini Oxford, JLR; multiplied by all the components and services suppliers across the rest of the nation. Failure to retain frictionless, tariff free trade with the EU will be a swift and brutal death sentence for what remains of UK manufacturing. Replacing 75% of our exports with the preposterous lie of new deals with other territories is only fooling the willingly deluded and pathologically disturbed.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
The AfD who are a far right anti immigration party picked up 10% of the vote which doesn't suggest that we can ignore the issue. People sometimes lie in opinion polls as I'm sure you are aware - the level of support for the AfD is a more worrying stat.
If asylum and refugees are the 4th concern listed it's a bit fatuous to use the word 'distant' - top 4 suggests it's an issue.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
I'm not saying that there is no benefit to Germany being in the Euro, but that the reason why German goods are exported so successfully is generally down to perceptions of quality - so that the impact on the German automotive industry of the emissions scandal is of much greater impact than the relative value of the Euro against the Dollar, etc.
People buy Miele, Bosch, Grundig, etc. because of perceptions about the brands, even when they are significantly more expensive than competitors.
Where, for example, Italian manufacturers have a similar reputation, they are also able to sell their products on that basis.
I'd also be inclined to suggest that German business culture goes a good bit further than any competitive advantage derived from the Euro in explaining German economic success.
And, as an aside, an awful lot of "German" manufacturing happens worldwide, whilst the profits may be repatriated.
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
It would be good to get rid of the DUP.
Welcome to my World....
I find it fascinating that they seem to be now dictating the Brexit negotiations.
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
Why should the Republic pay for a territory that they, and 99% of the rest of the world, believe belongs to them in the first place?
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
It would be good to get rid of the DUP.
Welcome to my World....
I find it fascinating that they seem to be now dictating the Brexit negotiations.
Was always going to be the danger when the tories bought their support in order to cling on to power. I find it ironically amusing.
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
It would be good to get rid of the DUP.
Welcome to my World....
I find it fascinating that they seem to be now dictating the Brexit negotiations.
They are following the excellent example provided by Parnell's Irish Parliamentary Party in the 19th Century.
That, and they just like telling people what they cannot do...
May and her cabinet are fucked whatever deal they do or don't do. If she goes with a "soft" deal i.e. good for business and the economy she'll get fucked over by the cynical DUP, Bojo, Davis, Reece-Mogg hecklers and racketeers; if she favours a harder version to appease those cnuts the economy will tank under the tidal wave of uncertainty. Either way there'll be a general election sooner rather than later and we'll be skewered on a thoroughly hung parliament, cos not even these levels of tory fuckwittery will see the pisspoorpantomime Corbyn labour fiasco achieve an overall majority. Happy Christmas children. The only winners will be the double-barrelled scum who have been backing the hard fallout economic fiasco through their (almost) anonymous investment trust hedge funds; none of whom will give us and their beloved nation, of which they are so proud, so much as a backwards glance as they desert the ship they've scuttled for their trust-fund owned Caribbean island and ill gotten lifelong security.
May and her cabinet are fucked whatever deal they do or don't do. If she goes with a "soft" deal i.e. good for business and the economy she'll get fucked over by the cynical DUP, Bojo, Davis, Reece-Mogg hecklers and racketeers; if she favours a harder version to appease those cnuts the economy will tank under the tidal wave of uncertainty. Either way there'll be a general election sooner rather than later and we'll be skewered on a thoroughly hung parliament, cos not even these levels of tory fuckwittery will see the pisspoorpantomime Corbyn labour fiasco achieve an overall majority. Happy Christmas children. The only winners will be the double-barrelled scum who have been backing the hard fallout economic fiasco through their (almost) anonymous investment trust hedge funds; none of whom will give us and their beloved nation, of which they are so proud, so much as a backwards glance as they desert the ship they've scuttled for their trust-fund owned Caribbean island and ill gotten lifelong security.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
I'm not saying that there is no benefit to Germany being in the Euro, but that the reason why German goods are exported so successfully is generally down to perceptions of quality - so that the impact on the German automotive industry of the emissions scandal is of much greater impact than the relative value of the Euro against the Dollar, etc.
People buy Miele, Bosch, Grundig, etc. because of perceptions about the brands, even when they are significantly more expensive than competitors.
Where, for example, Italian manufacturers have a similar reputation, they are also able to sell their products on that basis.
I'd also be inclined to suggest that German business culture goes a good bit further than any competitive advantage derived from the Euro in explaining German economic success.
And, as an aside, an awful lot of "German" manufacturing happens worldwide, whilst the profits may be repatriated.
Germany makes excellent products that people want to buy - I have said that. What I also said was they do well financially being in the Euro. As stated above, they have a significant financial benefit from their currency being lower than what it would otherwise be. To me, they don't really appreciate that not all countries are like them. INdeed, if they were, Germany would be a lot poorer!
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
I'm not saying that there is no benefit to Germany being in the Euro, but that the reason why German goods are exported so successfully is generally down to perceptions of quality - so that the impact on the German automotive industry of the emissions scandal is of much greater impact than the relative value of the Euro against the Dollar, etc.
People buy Miele, Bosch, Grundig, etc. because of perceptions about the brands, even when they are significantly more expensive than competitors.
Where, for example, Italian manufacturers have a similar reputation, they are also able to sell their products on that basis.
I'd also be inclined to suggest that German business culture goes a good bit further than any competitive advantage derived from the Euro in explaining German economic success.
And, as an aside, an awful lot of "German" manufacturing happens worldwide, whilst the profits may be repatriated.
Germany makes excellent products that people want to buy - I have said that. What I also said was they do well financially being in the Euro. As stated above, they have a significant financial benefit from their currency being lower than what it would otherwise be. To me, they don't really appreciate that not all countries are like them. INdeed, if they were, Germany would be a lot poorer!
I've known a fair few Germans over the years (not as many as I'd like, but hey), the last thing that I would accuse them of is a lack of understanding of their position relative to other countries. Collectively, they remember a time, not so long ago, when Germany was a lot poorer. They have managed their economy, including the integration of East Germany, prudently - it may be that, having to represent disparate nations, the ECB has also been prudent and that, as a result, its policies suit the German mindset. But it's a long way from that to arguing that the Euro has been managed to benefit Germany at the expense of other member states.
Greece and Italy have economic problems, often blamed by populist politicians on their membership of the Euro, but is this really the case? For me, both countries are suffering from a wide range of problems (including, in both cases, significant undeclared economic activity and "interesting" Governments over the years); almost all of these problems had nothing to do with Euro membership.
Here's a couple of articles on the Italian economy.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I understand that Cambridge Audio is a Uk domiciled business, with appropriate CIT arrangements, whose main value creating employees are also located here. Do let me know if I am wrong.
Next?
I'd argue your last statement but that's not the point...Honda UK might be a subsidiary for Honda Motors but they are still a UK company manufacturing goods in the UK.
So are Honda Civics actually Japanese goods? They've not been imported, built here in the UK, so are they less British than your Chinese made speakers under the name of a British company? I genuinely want to know!
Kind of surprised, but OK, here goes.
We have been discussing that the German economy is driven as much by the Mittelstand SMEs as much as by the giants such as the auto companies and Bosch Siemens etc. One such Mittelstand whose product many Lifers have purchased is Sennheiser. As you can read, Sennheiser is famous for continuing to produce in its small home town near Hannover, even though its global success means it has expanded its operations. We can safely assume that profits are repatriated to and taxed in Germany. It is therefore a German company, no?
I am looking for UK equivalents to such a company and since we have a bit of a reputation in the same field, we might think that Cambridge Audio is similar (albeit much smaller). The Wki shows us that while indeed it does manufacture in China, "Investment in new products continues and the company now employs 91 people including an in-house engineering team of 24, based at the Cambridge Audio HQ in London, SE1 and at the company's Cambridge base".
As such I believe that the profits are declared and taxed in the UK, and that UK management decides on the future direction and investments of the company, to the benefit of the UK more than any other country.
None of the last sentence can be ascribed to Honda, fine company that it is.
But I can't help thinking that you already knew all that...
Oi! Just because I'm usually here to take the piss doesn't mean I can't ask serious questions sometimes
Of course I knew all that, but I was just after an opinion if goods manufactured in the UK are classed as British goods even if under the umbrella of a foreign company and vice versa. Dual nationality? Haha
Side note...Only British in my house is the Dyson, but that belongs to the missus (she won't read this). It's all Japanese and American with a touch of Swiss otherwise. Although there is the Sky box, or is that Australian? Can't really count the Bulldog as "goods". Especially as he's a little pr!ck.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
I’m not so sure. A protest vote on the scale required to win the referendum would imply that people didn’t care what happened as a consequence of Brexit. Perhaps they didn’t listen to what every credible source was saying and is still saying on just how bad Brexit will be for the country. I don’t think that happened. I think the answer is a lot more base than an educated poke in the eye for the establishment.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Not long to go until we see if 1) May and Robins can cut a deal with Barnier and 2) She can carry a vote in the Commons
No deal would mean no transition period so the stakes are extremely high - For the whole nation. Contrary to the nonsense spouted by the ERG, "No deal" or a clean break is not what the UK voted for nor is that anything more than a minority view in the polls.
One possibility is that May will bring something back later this week - Robins and his opposite number will have been working on it day and night for the last few days.
And that takes us to the second question: will the DUP and/or the ERG attempt to destroy the agreement which might well bring the government down. In turn that might force an election?
Those who do not support Corbyn / Labour but who wanted Labour to become a Remain only party might wish to consider how that would have been presented by Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg? The alt-right are looking for people to blame, starting with May.
No, what has always been important has been to arrive at this point with the potential collapse of the Tories as they bicker over the terms of Brexit which are simply not in their gift.
Varoufakis spelt this out in April 2017 within a week of Article 50 being triggered. And his view then was to ask, nay beg for a Norway style deal. Since then he has suggested a five year transition is the answer.
Meanwhile just seen a piece suggesting that NHS nurse recruitment from the EU is down 90% FFS. Down from 9,000 to 900!
Nobody voted to leave the SM and CU and the child like pretence from the ERG will surely not play well with large parts of the electorate. As before, GDP growth, immigration and the opinion polls will continue to evolve...
And those speaking up for Brexit will continue to fail to present a cohesive vision. When that guy above conflates and confuses the common travel area of the UK and Ireland with the right of Northern Irish residents to secure an Irish passport, are we really surprised?
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Uncontrolled immigration was and is a big issue in the UK and the rest of Europe, no doubt. But it is not the root cause of either Brexit or the rise of Populist parties. The one thing that you hear over and over again is people saying that the elites do not listen to them or take their concerns seriously, but are focused only on their own world. This is what I mean by the 'status quo'. If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Uncontrolled immigration was and is a big issue in the UK and the rest of Europe, no doubt. But it is not the root cause of either Brexit or the rise of Populist parties. The one thing that you hear over and over again is people saying that the elites do not listen to them or take their concerns seriously, but are focused only on their own world. This is what I mean by the 'status quo'. If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
who are "the elites"?
I'm guessing they're not Eton educated Boris Johnson, Eton educated Jacob Rees Mogg or former stockbroker Nigel Farage... So who the hell are they?
Germany makes excellent products that people want to buy - I have said that. What I also said was they do well financially being in the Euro. As stated above, they have a significant financial benefit from their currency being lower than what it would otherwise be. To me, they don't really appreciate that not all countries are like them. INdeed, if they were, Germany would be a lot poorer!
I've known a fair few Germans over the years (not as many as I'd like, but hey), the last thing that I would accuse them of is a lack of understanding of their position relative to other countries. Collectively, they remember a time, not so long ago, when Germany was a lot poorer. They have managed their economy, including the integration of East Germany, prudently - it may be that, having to represent disparate nations, the ECB has also been prudent and that, as a result, its policies suit the German mindset. But it's a long way from that to arguing that the Euro has been managed to benefit Germany at the expense of other member states.
Greece and Italy have economic problems, often blamed by populist politicians on their membership of the Euro, but is this really the case? For me, both countries are suffering from a wide range of problems (including, in both cases, significant undeclared economic activity and "interesting" Governments over the years); almost all of these problems had nothing to do with Euro membership.
Here's a couple of articles on the Italian economy.
Germany has made billions from loans made to Greece during it's financial crisis. It eventually paid some of it back in debt relief in 2013 and 2014. They stopped doing that in 2015 because of the second bailout so that money has effectively been sitting in Germany's bank account ever since.
Greece's continued penury has everything to do with being in the Euro. They are unable to devalue their currency to restore competitiveness. Instead, to try and achieve the same effect, real people's wages have to be reduced. Iceland were able to devalue after their banking crisis and now their economy has recovered to 1% larger than it was back in 2008. Greece's economy shrank by 25% and has only grown a total of barely 3% since. The IMF, who issued a formal apology to Greece for the handling of the crisis (so that's OK then), estimate that it'll be at least another 10 years before Greece's economy recovers to anywhere near pre-crash levels. Personally, I think it will be a lot longer.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Uncontrolled immigration was and is a big issue in the UK and the rest of Europe, no doubt. But it is not the root cause of either Brexit or the rise of Populist parties. The one thing that you hear over and over again is people saying that the elites do not listen to them or take their concerns seriously, but are focused only on their own world. This is what I mean by the 'status quo'. If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
who are "the elites"?
I'm guessing they're not Eton educated Boris Johnson, Eton educated Jacob Rees Mogg or former stockbroker Nigel Farage... So who the hell are they?
If you think there are no elites in society the world must be an extremely puzzling place.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Uncontrolled immigration was and is a big issue in the UK and the rest of Europe, no doubt. But it is not the root cause of either Brexit or the rise of Populist parties. The one thing that you hear over and over again is people saying that the elites do not listen to them or take their concerns seriously, but are focused only on their own world. This is what I mean by the 'status quo'. If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
who are "the elites"?
I'm guessing they're not Eton educated Boris Johnson, Eton educated Jacob Rees Mogg or former stockbroker Nigel Farage... So who the hell are they?
If you think there are no elites in society the world must be an extremely puzzling place.
Do you not consider Boris, JRM or Frarage as part of the elite then?
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
I have never claimed that immigration is the biggest issue on people's minds, it is dissatisfaction with the status quo and the sense of not being listened to which is the main driver ( so perhaps listen a little better to what I say, Prague)
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
The AfD an anti-immigrant party picked up 10% of the vote which was mainly at the expense of the centre-right parties. The fact that this is happening in a relatively prosperous area such as Bavaria is worrying.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
Uncontrolled immigration was and is a big issue in the UK and the rest of Europe, no doubt. But it is not the root cause of either Brexit or the rise of Populist parties. The one thing that you hear over and over again is people saying that the elites do not listen to them or take their concerns seriously, but are focused only on their own world. This is what I mean by the 'status quo'. If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
who are "the elites"?
I'm guessing they're not Eton educated Boris Johnson, Eton educated Jacob Rees Mogg or former stockbroker Nigel Farage... So who the hell are they?
If you think there are no elites in society the world must be an extremely puzzling place.
Not what I said.
Who are the “elites”?
You can’t make an argument and immediately disown it. So who are they?
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
I'm not saying that there is no benefit to Germany being in the Euro, but that the reason why German goods are exported so successfully is generally down to perceptions of quality - so that the impact on the German automotive industry of the emissions scandal is of much greater impact than the relative value of the Euro against the Dollar, etc.
People buy Miele, Bosch, Grundig, etc. because of perceptions about the brands, even when they are significantly more expensive than competitors.
Where, for example, Italian manufacturers have a similar reputation, they are also able to sell their products on that basis.
I'd also be inclined to suggest that German business culture goes a good bit further than any competitive advantage derived from the Euro in explaining German economic success.
And, as an aside, an awful lot of "German" manufacturing happens worldwide, whilst the profits may be repatriated.
Germany makes excellent products that people want to buy - I have said that. What I also said was they do well financially being in the Euro. As stated above, they have a significant financial benefit from their currency being lower than what it would otherwise be. To me, they don't really appreciate that not all countries are like them. INdeed, if they were, Germany would be a lot poorer!
I've known a fair few Germans over the years (not as many as I'd like, but hey), the last thing that I would accuse them of is a lack of understanding of their position relative to other countries. Collectively, they remember a time, not so long ago, when Germany was a lot poorer. They have managed their economy, including the integration of East Germany, prudently - it may be that, having to represent disparate nations, the ECB has also been prudent and that, as a result, its policies suit the German mindset. But it's a long way from that to arguing that the Euro has been managed to benefit Germany at the expense of other member states.
Greece and Italy have economic problems, often blamed by populist politicians on their membership of the Euro, but is this really the case? For me, both countries are suffering from a wide range of problems (including, in both cases, significant undeclared economic activity and "interesting" Governments over the years); almost all of these problems had nothing to do with Euro membership.
Here's a couple of articles on the Italian economy.
I don't think a giant leap is needed to see that the most powerful economy holds the most power in Europe. One of the big problems is that Germany is massively stronger, not just a little bit. They should be praised for being a model economy, but they benefit greatly from being in the Euro. And they play a major role in economic policy!
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If asylum and refugees are the 4th concern listed it's a bit fatuous to use the word 'distant' - top 4 suggests it's an issue.
People buy Miele, Bosch, Grundig, etc. because of perceptions about the brands, even when they are significantly more expensive than competitors.
Where, for example, Italian manufacturers have a similar reputation, they are also able to sell their products on that basis.
I'd also be inclined to suggest that German business culture goes a good bit further than any competitive advantage derived from the Euro in explaining German economic success.
And, as an aside, an awful lot of "German" manufacturing happens worldwide, whilst the profits may be repatriated.
That, and they just like telling people what they cannot do...
What the Bavarian elections mainly show once again is that the main traditional parties of the right and left are seeing their support draining away across Europe to smaller, often populist parties. The far right are part of that in some places, the Greens and others elsewhere. Corbyn's Labour is the closest thing to that we have in the UK, but our Parliamentary system at least for the time being legislates against the European trend happening here in the same way.But remember the last two times people in the UK voted outside the Parliamentary system they voted for UKIP in the last European elections and for Brexit in the Referendum. We are not immune here.
Greece and Italy have economic problems, often blamed by populist politicians on their membership of the Euro, but is this really the case? For me, both countries are suffering from a wide range of problems (including, in both cases, significant undeclared economic activity and "interesting" Governments over the years); almost all of these problems had nothing to do with Euro membership.
Here's a couple of articles on the Italian economy.
bin-italia.org/italys-economic-problems-are-not-caused-by-the-euro-but-by-the-countrys-chaotic-political-system/
bruegel.org/2017/07/italian-economic-growth-and-the-euro/
Of course I knew all that, but I was just after an opinion if goods manufactured in the UK are classed as British goods even if under the umbrella of a foreign company and vice versa. Dual nationality? Haha
Side note...Only British in my house is the Dyson, but that belongs to the missus (she won't read this). It's all Japanese and American with a touch of Swiss otherwise. Although there is the Sky box, or is that Australian? Can't really count the Bulldog as "goods". Especially as he's a little pr!ck.
Immigration is a significant issue for a number of voters and it would be naive to ignore this. Germany has absorbed a significant number of migrants in a relatively short period of time and this has not always been popular.
The Italian government is pursuing an anti-immigrant agenda at the present time.
Yes but this does my head in. You, @southbank, @MuttleyCAFC are all talking through a British media prism. For example the British press say it is especially "shocking" that the AfD does well in "prosperous" Bavaria. Well.. it is not so long ago (but before all this immigration stuff) that the Rough Guide felt it appropriate to warn that the area around Bamberg and Bayreuth was a bit of a hotbed of Nazi sympathisers. Ask any German from the North what he or she thinks about Bavarians and you may well get quite a dark answer.
My point here is that there have always been extremists in every European country and as a % of the population they have always been bigger than we might all want to accept. Yes, us. The country of Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Right? Simply, some politicians in recent years have felt more emboldened to embrace these views and make them "mainstream". The British media in particular then makes lazy assumptions about what results in other countries mean, in the context of their British audience's perceptions. "Merkel's Syrian policy has backfired - Germans reject it - the AfD is on the march." Except it isn't. 89% of Bavarians did not vote for them, and they had more important matters on their mind than what the AfD thinks is important.
What you have in that tweet is an intelligent person with a bit more knowledge saying to the British audience, "this result is a lot more nuanced than what you are being told it is" . Reminds me of poor @southbank trying to explain to us that immigration didn't really drive a large number of Brexit votes...it would of course help, @southbank if you were a bit more precise about this "status quo" that the average Brexiteer is so angry with, and how Brexit will make things better, but I long ago lost hope of getting a coherent answer from you on that.
1) May and Robins can cut a deal with Barnier and
2) She can carry a vote in the Commons
No deal would mean no transition period so the stakes are extremely high - For the whole nation. Contrary to the nonsense spouted by the ERG, "No deal" or a clean break is not what the UK voted for nor is that anything more than a minority view in the polls.
One possibility is that May will bring something back later this week - Robins and his opposite number will have been working on it day and night for the last few days.
And that takes us to the second question: will the DUP and/or the ERG attempt to destroy the agreement which might well bring the government down. In turn that might force an election?
Those who do not support Corbyn / Labour but who wanted Labour to become a Remain only party might wish to consider how that would have been presented by Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg? The alt-right are looking for people to blame, starting with May.
No, what has always been important has been to arrive at this point with the potential collapse of the Tories as they bicker over the terms of Brexit which are simply not in their gift.
Varoufakis spelt this out in April 2017 within a week of Article 50 being triggered. And his view then was to ask, nay beg for a Norway style deal. Since then he has suggested a five year transition is the answer.
Meanwhile just seen a piece suggesting that NHS nurse recruitment from the EU is down 90% FFS. Down from 9,000 to 900!
Nobody voted to leave the SM and CU and the child like pretence from the ERG will surely not play well with large parts of the electorate. As before, GDP growth, immigration and the opinion polls will continue to evolve...
And those speaking up for Brexit will continue to fail to present a cohesive vision. When that guy above conflates and confuses the common travel area of the UK and Ireland with the right of Northern Irish residents to secure an Irish passport, are we really surprised?
If you are pretending that nothing has changed I suspect that Brexit will not be the last thing that shocks you. Personally I would not rule anything out.
I'm guessing they're not Eton educated Boris Johnson, Eton educated Jacob Rees Mogg or former stockbroker Nigel Farage... So who the hell are they?
Greece and Italy have economic problems, often blamed by populist politicians on their membership of the Euro, but is this really the case? For me, both countries are suffering from a wide range of problems (including, in both cases, significant undeclared economic activity and "interesting" Governments over the years); almost all of these problems had nothing to do with Euro membership.
Here's a couple of articles on the Italian economy.
bin-italia.org/italys-economic-problems-are-not-caused-by-the-euro-but-by-the-countrys-chaotic-political-system/
bruegel.org/2017/07/italian-economic-growth-and-the-euro/
Germany has made billions from loans made to Greece during it's financial crisis. It eventually paid some of it back in debt relief in 2013 and 2014. They stopped doing that in 2015 because of the second bailout so that money has effectively been sitting in Germany's bank account ever since.
Greece's continued penury has everything to do with being in the Euro. They are unable to devalue their currency to restore competitiveness. Instead, to try and achieve the same effect, real people's wages have to be reduced. Iceland were able to devalue after their banking crisis and now their economy has recovered to 1% larger than it was back in 2008. Greece's economy shrank by 25% and has only grown a total of barely 3% since. The IMF, who issued a formal apology to Greece for the handling of the crisis (so that's OK then), estimate that it'll be at least another 10 years before Greece's economy recovers to anywhere near pre-crash levels. Personally, I think it will be a lot longer.
Who are the “elites”?
You can’t make an argument and immediately disown it. So who are they?