Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Exactly, this was always the deal we would get. Leave called it "Project Fear", but it is now Project Reality.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
Norway deal means accepting free movement, annual payments and in addition membership of the Customs Union.
Can’t see it being accepted.
I actually think it’s the most likely outcome, but still well under a 50% chance of happening (if that makes any sense?).
I think it’s possible under a Labour government because despite their rhetoric that they could deliver a deal their options are very restricted. However. They need for the WA to fall. Win a vote of no confidence and then a general election.
I don’t see Norway under this government.
I can see EEA or EFTA as a temporary arrangement while the mess gets sorted out but no position has broad support.
Just watched Nigel Dodds of the DUP saying that once the WA is defeated they have no reason to bring down the government. He also said May would suffer severe consequences from her own party. Labour spokesman after PMQ’s when questioned about calling for a vote of no confidence after Tuesdays vote was quoted as saying “ well we’ll have to see what happens”
Perhaps there are more twists than certainly I thought.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
I have to disagree with you there.
The shiteness of the Political Direction text is directly correlated with the red lines laid down by the fragrant and lovely PM before charging headlong (and without an agreed Cabinet plan) for the exit. And, if you look at the divisions in Parliament, it is the future relationship that is causing the furore, because honest Brexit supporters recognise that their preferred option is not compatible with the stated aim of no new controls on the border in Ireland.
The Withdrawal Agreement, on the other hand was never going to be much different.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
The UK can't even sort out the introduction of new train timetables. Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, did they know the UK can't hardly manage jack?
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
I have to disagree with you there.
The shiteness of the Political Direction text is directly correlated with the red lines laid down by the fragrant and lovely PM before charging headlong (and without an agreed Cabinet plan) for the exit. And, if you look at the divisions in Parliament, it is the future relationship that is causing the furore, because honest Brexit supporters recognise that their preferred option is not compatible with the stated aim of no new controls on the border in Ireland.
The Withdrawal Agreement, on the other hand was never going to be much different.
Within her own red lines
Agreed. This is by no means the best deal we could have gotten. We were hamstrung by our own cack-handed politicians, but specifically:
1) Theresa May's red lines that were contrary to what the Leave campaigners and leading Brexiters had campaigned on
2) David Davis spending his 2 years as Brexit Secretary doing the sum total of eff all. The amount of time he spent preparing for and actually participating in the negotiations amounted to a handful of hours.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Ha ha. Strategy you call it.
Much like May. He hasn't got a f****** scooby!
Maybe, just maybe, he thinks that the government are doing a good enough job of falling to pieces over Brexit themselves and it’s not exactly a Labour strong point given their wishy washy stance on that subject that it made more sense to go after the government on other areas which TM probably wouldn’t be expecting.
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Corbyn isn't very agile. He's also as hard core a leaver as Rees-Mogg
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Master plan ™
Just like his failure to properly put to bed anti semitism in his party, make clear the party's position on Brexit and the votes re brexit in parliament in which he got labour to abstain that would've easily brought down the government if he had whipped for votes to oppose the government.
I think Corbyn is going for the same approach as the Australian speed skater Steven Bradbury. He knows he's shite and is just clinging on in the hope that everyone else falls over at the last minute allowing him to tomorrow home. Pretty disgraceful if that is the limit of your ambition
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
We’ve got 5 days of Brexit debate. Don’t see anything wrong in also hanging this government out to dry on the recent UN report on the dire state of 16 million people in this country. For the Tory party to sit there and laugh is just disgraceful, but sadly not a surprise.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
I'm really surprised that you didn't go for the open goal of "Eton Mess"....
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I have heard some Brexiters say this and I think it is totaly ridiculous. I am no fan of hers but she has tried to deliver a Brexit that stops her party fracturing. Brexit was always about divisions within the Conservative party from the word go. It was always impossible for her to do this, but she has kicked the can down the road trying to appease one side then the other, taking her eye off the negotiations with the EU and planting it firmly at the Conservative party naval. But it was always going to blow up when we got to this point!
If you want to understand Grieve's motion, you need to go back a few months when May stopped pro remain Tories voting against the government by telling them parliament would have a say on the final deal. Then after the vote, pro Brexit ministers were saying this wasn't the case. It is stupid to think they would accept being lied to and they would just allow us to slip into a choice between a terrible deal or a hard Brexit.
"Corbyn should have defeated Brexit" or a "decent opposition would have defeated May by now" is a straw man which doesn't take long to dismantle! The reality is that when the DUP abstains or votes with the opposition then the Tories lose but when the 10 DUP MPs vote with the Tories then they win. The arithmetic is that simple. May will either go when the ERG find an alternative or the Tory Remainers walk away due to the risk of No Deal.
In other words Labour cannot bring May nor the Tories down on their own but what they can do is plan for the future when that might be possible. To avoid "No deal" Brexit requires a change in the Law in order to revoke Article 50 and stop us leaving. That law has to be driven through by the government so that might be the catalyst for Tory remainers to jump ship and support a change in government / GE.
Best wait to see the actual vote next Tuesday and the response to that likely defeat - that might bring clarity or more probably, a few weeks of chaos.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
I'm really surprised that you didn't go for the open goal of "Eton Mess"....
I wish I had - I just didn't think of it though ;-)
Other than getting Labour into power, I fail to see what the point of a GE is and why Labour are so keen on it. Labour’s position (their six tests) is broadly the same as the governments, particularly as it includes ending free movement (which presumably means no Single Market or Norway deal) and leaving the customs union for a customs union.
For me, the better options are Norway or a second referendum.
As I attempted to share the other week, it is only by changing the government that we can hope for a different approach. Nobody can expect May and the Tories to deliver anything better than the WA - they've given it their best shot but it really isn't good enough.
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Is there a chance, that as a Remainer, May has played all of these cards exactly how she wanted to force a situation (and at the same time, orchestrating her own downfall) where we stay in the EU.
Or is that giving her too much credit?
I said that about 50 pages ago. I definitely, think there's an element of this.
We are in this situation because the deal is sh*t. The deal was always going to be sh*t no matter who led the Brexit process.
This isn’t some master stroke by May to dumb down a deal and force a change of direction. She genuinely went out to get the best deal possible and this is what she was given.
As a neutral it’s not May’s fault she got a sh*t deal. As a Tory sceptic I’m banging my head against a wall already with the people jumping to call her a champion of Remain.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Will Labour be changing their leadership structure before the impending GE?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
Of course they won't because within Labour, the Front bench will be seen as the team who brought down the government. What they will do is release a MkII version of their manifesto including an update on Brexit. And they will mobilise their resources and support on social media to put their message out. Naturally, Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea but Starmer talks sense on Brexit and Khan talks sense on London etc. etc.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
The collapse of the government will be entirely their own making however much Corbyn tries to take the credit for it.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
A decent opposition would be in power by now, a semi decent opposition would've used today's PMQ's to finally put the government out of its misery.
But here we are.
For Labour to not put the boot in during today’s PMQ’s must be part of a strategy, I can’t think of any other reason why you would avoid the opportunity to hammer the government in contempt, Grieve and the published legal advice on the WA.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
I keep trying to tell people what the strategy is. I told people this would happen months ago before Labour introduced the possibility of a second vote (I said they would) at their conference and they said parliament couldn't stop a Hard Brexit, Corbyn isn't that clever etc... The Labour position is to win power - I know that is outrageous but slag Corbyn off all you like, tat is what it is trying to do. It knows that it has to tread a fine line , as if it had acted as many remainers on here wanted it to, it would have lost votes.
Labour will not allow a Hard Brexit, and it was aware of the numbers in the house that would stop this. It also knows an election is a long shot above a referendum, but we need to fall into a referendum. This is equally important generally. Brexiters are already foaming at the mouth over yesterday's events making ridiculous accusations that this is all part of May's remain master plan. The second vote has to be pinned on the ERG MPs and it has to happen as there is no other choice. We (Remainers) do still need to win a second vote. There is no need for Corbyn to dance on May's grave when her own MPs are doing it.
Have read in some places that there might be violence in the streets if a second referendum is called - surely not? Wondered what the feeling would be like in the UK if another vote is announced.
Have read in some places that there might be violence in the streets if a second referendum is called - surely not? Wondered what the feeling would be like in the UK if another vote is announced.
There could equally be violence on the streets if there isn't a second vote. The country is in a divided mess.
Comments
Perhaps there are more twists than certainly I thought.
The shiteness of the Political Direction text is directly correlated with the red lines laid down by the fragrant and lovely PM before charging headlong (and without an agreed Cabinet plan) for the exit. And, if you look at the divisions in Parliament, it is the future relationship that is causing the furore, because honest Brexit supporters recognise that their preferred option is not compatible with the stated aim of no new controls on the border in Ireland.
The Withdrawal Agreement, on the other hand was never going to be much different.
Within her own red lines
Brexit is impossible to deliver without damaging the economy and restricting opportunities for UK citizens to travel and work in Europe, unless there is a Norway option + the CU. And if one arrives at the conclusion that BINO is the best option then why bother leaving? May has to go because she cannot deliver the WA in Parliament next week and, believe it or not, the WA is the best the UK is going to get without committing to the SM and four freedoms.
That's why the polls are showing a spike when people are asked if Brexit was a mistake.
The wider point of a GE is to end austerity and set the UK on a different path. We've had eight years of Tory rule and eight years of austerity. Whether we end up with Norway + CU or Remain makes little difference to the economy and to ordinary people but the reason we need the Tories to go is because it's very clear that they cannot deliver a rational Brexit which does not kill off jobs and opportunities.
We know that the Labour leadership is opposed to remaining in the Single Market. However, Labour unlike the Tories, has a democratic process for forming policy and the possible brexit options will have to be thrashed out internally before summary options aere shared with their membership. Before people jump up and down about the Single Market perhaps we should wait to see the case for not remaining - Not sure it stacks up neither can we be sure that it's acceptable to the EU27 so compromise by Corbyn and McDonnell required?
IMHO Labour would be best off standing on a ticket promising a second referendum on a negotiated Norway style deal vs Remain as that will be democratic and seen to be democratic to all those except the 30% who support a Hard Brexit. Attractive to many, not least the 60% who support such a policy.
Can't disagree but would point out that she ruled out the Single Market as an option at an early stage and is only committed to a Customs Union because the EU27 dictated this. As per my response above May has delivered but the answer is poor. And she's taken a bit too long. Having sait that the urgency now will either force a correction or move us towards an even worse outcome... and that in turn would push the 20+ Tory Remainers into the arms of Labour so as to resolve.
We have a few weeks of chaos which will be followed by either resolution or some more chaos. The Art.50 ruling means that Parliament can pull out of Brexit in February if the MPs cannot agree on a sensible outcome. Killing off the WA is the first step.
Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, did they know the UK can't hardly manage jack?
Devil and the deep blue sea?
1) Theresa May's red lines that were contrary to what the Leave campaigners and leading Brexiters had campaigned on
2) David Davis spending his 2 years as Brexit Secretary doing the sum total of eff all. The amount of time he spent preparing for and actually participating in the negotiations amounted to a handful of hours.
And they will all talk about ending austerity.
However, we have to wait and see by how far the WA is defeated and where we go in the weeks afterwards. As others have noted, the DUP won't participate in bringing May down and the Tory remainers will only do it if it's the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.
For me he's just the bloke that sat around waiting for it to happen.
But here we are.
But perhaps this is also a case of giving a politician too much credit and Corbyn just missed his chance spectacularly.
Much like May. He hasn't got a f****** scooby!
Again, those are big “maybes”.
Just like his failure to properly put to bed anti semitism in his party, make clear the party's position on Brexit and the votes re brexit in parliament in which he got labour to abstain that would've easily brought down the government if he had whipped for votes to oppose the government.
its all coming together.
If you want to understand Grieve's motion, you need to go back a few months when May stopped pro remain Tories voting against the government by telling them parliament would have a say on the final deal. Then after the vote, pro Brexit ministers were saying this wasn't the case. It is stupid to think they would accept being lied to and they would just allow us to slip into a choice between a terrible deal or a hard Brexit.
In other words Labour cannot bring May nor the Tories down on their own but what they can do is plan for the future when that might be possible. To avoid "No deal" Brexit requires a change in the Law in order to revoke Article 50 and stop us leaving. That law has to be driven through by the government so that might be the catalyst for Tory remainers to jump ship and support a change in government / GE.
Best wait to see the actual vote next Tuesday and the response to that likely defeat - that might bring clarity or more probably, a few weeks of chaos.
Labour will not allow a Hard Brexit, and it was aware of the numbers in the house that would stop this. It also knows an election is a long shot above a referendum, but we need to fall into a referendum. This is equally important generally. Brexiters are already foaming at the mouth over yesterday's events making ridiculous accusations that this is all part of May's remain master plan. The second vote has to be pinned on the ERG MPs and it has to happen as there is no other choice. We (Remainers) do still need to win a second vote. There is no need for Corbyn to dance on May's grave when her own MPs are doing it.