"English" people were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum if they lived there. But Europeans couldn't vote in our referendum no matter how long they had lived here. The trouble is that both approaches seem fair but you get completely different results.
As I said long ago I still can't see why the people of Catalonia shouldn't be given a proper referendum on independence as in UK and Scotland. An election like yesterday was never going to solve anything imo.
Referendums should come from the political process. The first step is to show a sizable majority want something. In Scotland’s case, an Independence Party was dominating the elections. That give credence to the movement and the British government took that on board.
I believe a similar situation existed in Quebec.
It doesn’t in Catalonia. The majority of votes are for parties that want to stay part of Spain. The seats are a very narrow majority the other way. Certainly not the conditions you’d want to hold a referendum under
As I said long ago I still can't see why the people of Catalonia shouldn't be given a proper referendum on independence as in UK and Scotland. An election like yesterday was never going to solve anything imo.
I don't think a referendum would really help, nor am I sure that one could be agreed.
The problem is that, if a legal referendum was allowed for Catalonia alone under the Spanish Constitution (I'm not sure that it does), how would it be framed to ensure that the people would be happy?
At what level would it be reasonable to set the bar for an independence win, should there be a supermajority of 60, 65, 70 or 75%? A simple majority is, in all honesty, unlikely to work. And the losing side would be so substantial that the political crisis would not go away.
If any referendum leading to a vote for independence shows significant regional divisions within Catalonia, so that for example, Barcelona, Tarragona and their hinterlands were overwhelmingly pro-Union with Spain, should they be allowed secede from secession? If that was allowed, could the independent parts of Catalonia afford independence?
For me, the only way to avoid things ending up as pointless bickering (like a Stormont on the Med) would be if, somehow, moderate Catalan nationalists and moderate Spanish unionists could agree enough common ground for a government that would deliver the things that Catalonia needs on a day to day basis, and park this question for a while to let the tempers cool.
based on @SomervilleAddick view we wouldn't have had a Brexit vote. None of the major political parties were in favour of it. Which I believe would have been undemocratic. re @NornIrishAddick. Although I have some sympathy with this Catalonia is different with its own language and historical region. I can't see any other democratic reason for it not to be a simple majority. Why can't people accept democracy and the will of the people?
@redman why does the language make a difference. Why do Catalans who speak Catalan and want independence need a simple majority to impose their will on Catalan speaking Catalans who don't? The whole process is going to be hugely disruptive and economically damaging (the explicit views of ex Catalan president and pro independence leader Artur Mas ) so to put it in motion surely you need a large proportion of the populace in favour. Where does the language issue enter in that?
The will of the people is not to be independent. The independents received 47% of the vote and most people there just want to keep their jobs and get on with their lives. The independent movement is mainly driven by rural middle class towns in Lleida and Girona, and headed by a former journalist and a group who claim Catalans are genetically different to the rest of Spain. They don't speak for the majority, as the percentages have shown with yesterday's election.
based on @SomervilleAddick view we wouldn't have had a Brexit vote. None of the major political parties were in favour of it. Which I believe would have been undemocratic. re @NornIrishAddick. Although I have some sympathy with this Catalonia is different with its own language and historical region. I can't see any other democratic reason for it not to be a simple majority. Why can't people accept democracy and the will of the people?
Well, the simplest reason why it is that most referenda with potentially significant outcomes require a supermajority is that it helps avoid years of strife, and possibly worse.
It is entirely democratic to require a clear majority in favour of a given proposition, and even a minimum threshold. In fact, because of the nature of referenda, in comparison to Parliamentary elections and votes, it's almost a requirement to avoid the fabled tyranny of the majority. Because people are offered only a binary choice, the outcome of a referendum cannot be nuanced to recognise and represent a range of opinions and possible outcomes, and will almost inevitably lead to politicians (at least some) seeking to interpret the vote in ways that it is reasonable to assume the electorate did not intend.
And, dare I say it, if you look at the spectrum of Catalan nationalists, you will find numbers who would lay claim to parts of Valencia and the Balearics. It is not as if Catalonia represents a discrete linguistic and national/regional identity, a people united in a single world view, and entirely contained within its borders.
If you believe that those who wish to claim a particular national identity, one one side of the debate, such as the Catalan nationalists, can leave an existing political body, in Spain, as the result of a referendum, then surely the same courtesy must be extended to those who seek to remain Spanish within Catalonia. So the only fair outcome of a binding referendum would be one whereby an independent Catalonia would, most likely, be shorn of both Barcelona and Tarragona.
There are four national languages here as well as many other unofficial ones, such as Leonese, Aragonese and Asturian. Each region has its own distinct culture and traditions. That shouldn't be confused for wanting to be their own country. This is the modern nation state, not a collection of feudal communities.
based on @SomervilleAddick view we wouldn't have had a Brexit vote. None of the major political parties were in favour of it. Which I believe would have been undemocratic. re @NornIrishAddick. Although I have some sympathy with this Catalonia is different with its own language and historical region. I can't see any other democratic reason for it not to be a simple majority. Why can't people accept democracy and the will of the people?
I think you’ve confirmed my view. There should have been no Brexit vote, because there was no significant political will. It’s was done for internal party reasons. Without a significant political movement before a referendum is announced, you get the mess you have today.
And, as I’m sure has been said before, nobody is denying the will of the majority of the people. It’s the loud but significant minority who aren’t getting what they want.
Carles Puigdemont as on the ball as ever. He's quoted as saying that as the Catalan people have clearly shown their desire for independence, Mariano Rajoy should come and meet him for talks in Brussels. Once again we have an Independence spokesman who writes off half the population.
Come back to Barcelona Charlie, there's a cell with your name on it.
There are several posters on here who know far more about the local situation in Catalan than I do. I thank you for your posts and many have been far more enlightning than the general news. I mainly talk of principles. Firstly I believe in democracy as a first principle. Secondly there is generally a big difference between voting for a party who is for or against independence than there is in an actual referendum. Although different Scotland and UK show that. A proper referendum would have the benefit of stopping a lot of the arguments (at least for a few years). The economic impact, effect on people's jobs etc can be properly debated during the lead up to an election.
There are several posters on here who know far more about the local situation in Catalan than I do. I thank you for your posts and many have been far more enlightning than the general news. I mainly talk of principles. Firstly I believe in democracy as a first principle. Secondly there is generally a big difference between voting for a party who is for or against independence than there is in an actual referendum. Although different Scotland and UK show that. A proper referendum would have the benefit of stopping a lot of the arguments (at least for a few years). The economic impact, effect on people's jobs etc can be properly debated during the lead up to an election.
The problem is, they wouldn't be. Properly debated that is. All the in/out arguments and petty bickering about racism/xenophobia aside, Brexit will be an unmitigated disaster for the vast majority of people in the UK, because people aren't given 'facts' in debates - they're given hyperbole, pandering to base instinct and a whole lot of playing on fears. The same would happen in Catalonia. Sad as it is to admit, this sort of decision shouldn't be made by 'the people' (outside of the regular democratic process of an election)
There are four national languages here as well as many other unofficial ones, such as Leonese, Aragonese and Asturian. Each region has its own distinct culture and traditions. That shouldn't be confused for wanting to be their own country. This is the modern nation state, not a collection of feudal communities.
This. Beat me to it, the missus' dad will often speak in the Aragonese dialect around the villages, Catalonia isn't a special case within Spain of having its own culture and customs, though they very much like to think so. If Catalonia should be independent because of this, then why not Aragon, Galicia so on so forth.
Hi @Anna_Kissed , I guess that would be an interpretaton of events here, and one that the Independence voters would like. The picture sold to the world ouside is very much the one in the Guardian article - Pep Guardiola has offered this thoghroughly simplistic view over and over again, and certainly the PP are caught up in a series of corruption cases which they have cheerfully ignored. The corruption cases and the lack of pressure to resolve them has been cited a lot regarding the currebt situation in Catalunya and why the movement for Indeendence aquired it's momentum.
I'll clear up the last question first as it is relatively easy. The reason the justice system has moved so much faster regarding the Independece movement as opposed to the larcenous activities of Sr. Barcenas and various other politicians, is that it was rapidly bringing the región into chaos. I have cited the economic destruction the Independence bloc wrought in a month here on a number of occasions. There was a real need to stop that in it's tracks - the causation was a series of illegal laws and decisions in the Catalan parliament, which could with broad strokes be described as economic terrorism. When they had their powers suspended, the Catalan Generalitat was offered an election so not really a lack of democracy, but an emergency which needed resolving before it went utterly out of control.
The prison charges are now slower, as temporarily the breach in the law has been halted. But the people who didi taht are mostly at liberty. I can't see how you could impliate Pep Guardiola for stating his views or wearing a yellow ribbon. But his views are in my opinión wrong to put it mildly, and lies if I'm honest. The politicians who are in prison and those who will probably follow them are not there because they wanted to vote. They are there because they broke a series of laws in organising the referéndum, and then tried to use the result to declare Independence. They consistently ignored (or better said contemptuously rode over) the views of around half the population, as they consider them unworthy of having an opinión - about as demcratic as anything Britain First would organise in the UK. The reason some of them are in prison now was they were considered a flight risk (something Puigdemont demonstrated) or that they would continue to try to mount a Republic and/or destroy proof of what they had done. A few got out by demonstrating that they would not leave and swearing to obey the Spanish constitution.
The 'peacefull demonstrations' could be said to be just that, except that logically you might wonder why there is so much apetite to leave. That comes back to the undercurrent preached in Catalunya that 'Spain is robbing us'. The numbers are not nearly as simple as those bandied about by politicians. Catalunya is unable to pay it's pension bill without a huge anual subsidy from Spain. They also owe Spain a horrible amout of money, more than any other región. Unfortunately facts seldom enter in a modern election, and people generally tend to let their emotions run free. Those who believe Spain is stealing from Catalunya would be unlikely to waste their time listening to someone who proved things otherwise, while anyone who believed Independence would cause finacial ruin would equally not wish to hear an opposite point of view.
We now have an ongoing threat of a very quick repetition. The Indpendence leaders are already clainming the Catalan people have 'shown they want independence', and want out of Spain, which is a fairly unjustfiable extrapolation of the election results which showed no such thing. To add to this, Puigdemont has now said that given the clear vote for independence given by the Catalans on thursday, his idea is to return as president and continue where he left off (when he ran away) pushing forward his program of independence.
The guardian actually published another article the day before the one above, in which they merely commented on the huge divisions now created in Catalunya. That the Independenc bloc wish to push ahead with their program in open defiance of around half the populace will do nothing but sow more hydra's teeth. To be fair, Ciutadans, who were the overall party winners, as well as the first ever non Catalan party to win an election in the territory, have also said they will be pushing to renew ties with Spain. It's nothing like as radical as the plans of Carles Puigdemont, but it is 180º away from what the anti Spanish want. Having such a polarised population makes any sort of dialogue next to imposible. Further arrests won't help at all, but then why should law beakers get away scot free because they are politicians? Puigdemont has claimed it would be ilegal to arrest a lawfully elected president, but personally I don't see why that should give him immunity. Besides, his party know full well what the consequences are if he returns to Spain. Five of their candidates are either in jail or face it if they return from their flight. That means their party will not have them available to vote. That they put them up anyway suggests they know how that will go down with their adherents and did it anyway to fan the flames of hatred. It's a fair tactic if brinkmanship is their plan, but it will just keep the political scene ungovernable. They would have everyone believe that they believe in peacefull protest. but their actions are more like small children who when they get punished for misbehaving, threaten to do worse next time.
A referéndum would probably solve nothing now - neither side would accept the terms of the other as both sides would want to guarantee victory before giving the nod. But there is the problem that Catalunya has been part of Spain as long as Spain has existed. The idea they will just yell 'cheerio we're off' and move out is farcical. @redman made a good point yesterday that the voters in an election may not represent the numbers in a yes/no referéndum vote. But there are almost certainly not enough on the Independence side to justify the turmoil of declaring a new republic.
The good news is I live near Tarbarnia. A new region constituted by metropoliran Barcelona, Tarragona and the coastal strip between. A new organisation here has declared 'we are plural, bilingual, open, cosmopolitan and anti seperatist. The only thing we have done is put a name to where we live'. I wonder how the seperatists will take it when Barcelona and Tarragona declare independence from Catalunya.
Yeah, but you keep skipping over the ones who don't want to seperate. This isn't 'the Catalan people', it's slightly less than half (or slightly over). Why are you so determined that one half get what they want in detriment to the other? Merry christmas anyway.
One hopes that they won't crack heads because of it.
Spain: We don't like what you stand for, so we'll crack heads, regardless. Separatists: We don't like that. Spain: Sod your 'referendum'. We know best. We'll grant you an election, so be grateful. Separatists: Okay. We'll do our best. [Vote] Separatists: Okay. There we are. How did we do? Spain: Bollocks. Separatists: And? Spain: Unity, friends, Unity. You are all citizens and we would never hurt you.
Etc...
Damn, opening and posting in a cl politics thread on Christmas.
Anyway, rather how about this:
Separatists: We want a better deal for ourselves not everyone. We're holding a referendum. Viva independence!
Spain: ummm that's against the law of the land and the nation's constitution.....
Separatists: Sod Spanish law and it's constitution, it doesn't suit us. Viva Catalonia! Viva independence! *Sticks two fingers up at the constitution*
Spain: ok, but, that's breaking the law so you know, we WILL have to stop you of course.
Separatists: Well that's just anti democratic, how dare you try and stop us for breaking the law! Bastardo's! *Holds referendum*
Spain: *whack*
Separatists: fascists
Spain: Just shut up already
Separatists: Well, a quarter of the region turned out to vote and most of those were for independence. The will of the people! We won! We declare independence and to separate from Spain. And I won't have to pay a high rate in tax to cover poor areas anymore! Viva independence! Viva Catalonia!
Unionists: Umm hi there?!?!?
Separatists: Quiet. Most of you people are 3rd generation immigrants, your views and opinions don't matter, only that of true Catalan's.
Unionists: wow, steady on there Adolf....
Spain, Well, we are going to have to arrest those of you inciting independence.
Separatists: no worries, hey supporters, the fascists are coming for us, just remember now we did nothing wrong *ahem* we want you to protest, fight, and stand up for what you believe in! Fight for your rights! Just excuse me while I go hide in another country out of harm's way tehehehe.
Spain: well this is going nowhere fast really. Ok, stuff it, elections.
Separatists: Yes! We won again! Will of people etc.
Unionists: Well it's not quite that black and white really is it I mean look..
Not a million miles from the truth. I find it fascinating how people separate racism/fascism/nationalism from 'independence' arguments. Most of the arguments in favour of Catalan independence mention a misconceived belief that Catalans are somehow 'superior' to the rest of Spain and don't want their identity to be 'watered down'. That sounds eerily familiar...
I abhor violence meted out by States - the entrenched status quo - protecting establishment 'values'. I refer you to my comments made previously, in which I spoke of my misgivings about the power base of States. I have not championed nationalism. I have spoken of my unease about it. I make no claim of any superiority. I am, broadly, for the underdog.
You're still not making sense. This isn't violence meted out by the state. Despite the absolute stupidity of Rajoy's response to the original deeply flawed 'referendum', this was about preventing an illegal attempt to stir up unrest by people with a vested interest in rabble rousing. This wasn't about protecting an oppressed minority state from fascist tanks rolling through the plaza de catalunya. It was about protecting the majority of people living in a part of a country from an attempt at nothing less than a coup based on a flawed belief in racial superiority.
The whole separatist argument depends on this kind of oversimplification. The 'underdog' in Catalunya is likely to be the normal working class person who does not want to lose their hard fought job because of politicians' vanity project based on genetic superiority.
Feliz Navidad indeed! The difference between the "referendum" and the election is like chalk and cheese. In terms of a fair campaign, proper electoral process with formal scrutiny, the election was the real McCoy. Two million voted "si" with no plan except UDI back in September. Those same two million voted for separatist parties the other day but this time they were accompanied by two million "remainers".
This in no time to play winner takes all in what is a 50:50 position.
People are assuming separatists have won the election but CUP have been crushed; Puigdemont is an opportunist in exile; and the numbers in exile or jail might prevent them voting Puigdemont in as Catalonia President?
Not sure how the process works but those trying to defend those arrested might stop to contemplate the charges? Sedition and misuse of state funds are fairly serious - being an elected politician is no defence. Surely only extreme separatists and anarchists will defend these people. Let's be clear: it was an illegal referendum designed to support a unilateral declaration of independence. Plus there are allegations that state funds have been used to support this campaign.
The tensions are high and it's going to take years to diffuse, with potential economic damage in the meantime? Every month will reveal a new chapter - same as Brexit and Trump.
Long term, the only way forwards is for centre right and centre left voters to back candidates with sensible pragmatic solutions at the next election. Like the UK, there's no telling when the next one will be - funny how some power crazed, nationalist ideologues hold countries to ransom as they seek power?!
Yeah, but you keep skipping over the ones who don't want to seperate. This isn't 'the Catalan people', it's slightly less than half (or slightly over). Why are you so determined that one half get what they want in detriment to the other? .
So, if 51% of the votes isn't enough ? What would do it ? 60% or 75% ? What if 80% of the people would vote for Independence, would one accept this ? I just wonder ...
So, if 51% of the votes isn't enough ? What would do it ? 60% or 75% ? What if 80% of the people would vote for Independence, would one accept this ? I just wonder ...
It's not 51% of votes. It's 51% of turnout. And even if it were - no, 51% is not enough. 70% would be a more decisive mandate for what is likely to be the biggest economic, political and cultural upheaval the region would ever see. At that sort of level, you're looking at a potential new country that is reasonably united in wanting to break away from the larger state. A straightforward 'majority' just isn't enough in instances like this. Democracy isn't as simple as that - when you're talking about the difference of a few thousand votes that could affect millions of people.
Of course, even if a ballot for independence were set at 70% in favour triggering a 'leave' process, that process is still fraught with difficulty - but at least it would indicate enough of the population thought it was worth pursuing.
Just a small bit of news. The Independence bloc have hit a temporary (at least) stumbling block, as the ERC have stated they will only accept JuntsPerSi 's proposal of Carles Puigedemont as president if he returns to Catalunya. That is fraught with difficulty as despite his showboating in Brussels about the demands he needs meeting in order to return, he will actually be arrested the moment he is seen here. Junts per Si have now offered another candidate, Jordi Sánchez, who is already in prison. I get the impression they actually want a president in exile or slammer in order to show the world how badly they are being treated. However, anyone they nominate to be in the Catalan parlaiament will be unable to vote on anything as they aren't there to do it, so we may possibly end up with Ciutadans being given a shot, or more likely, more elections in may. Cuitadans have been criticised by the ruling Popular Party in Madrid for not even trying to form a government first before giving the Independence brigada a go, despite the fact that a) Ciutadans will find it next to imposible to get a majority and b) The Popular pary did exactly the same thing a year ago in the general election. Meantime, there is a news ítem cirulating on a site called El Confidencial which outlines Puigdemont's plans for the next legislature. He ambitiously plans maternity leave of 16 weeks for both partners and a mínimum salary of 1018 euros per month which will be great but a bit hard to finance, He also `plans to seize control of the airporta and rail network, and prepare a didg¡tal register for the new republic (whatever that is) so he appears to feel there is no limit to what he can achieve with the full backing of the Catalan people. I'm a bit surised he didn't mention this during the elections, but they were entirly fought on hatred or love of Spain so there was really no need to offer anything like a manifestó. As someone jovially posted on here on christmas day, Christ on a bike........
Comments
"English" people were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum if they lived there. But Europeans couldn't vote in our referendum no matter how long they had lived here. The trouble is that both approaches seem fair but you get completely different results.
I believe a similar situation existed in Quebec.
It doesn’t in Catalonia. The majority of votes are for parties that want to stay part of Spain. The seats are a very narrow majority the other way. Certainly not the conditions you’d want to hold a referendum under
The problem is that, if a legal referendum was allowed for Catalonia alone under the Spanish Constitution (I'm not sure that it does), how would it be framed to ensure that the people would be happy?
At what level would it be reasonable to set the bar for an independence win, should there be a supermajority of 60, 65, 70 or 75%? A simple majority is, in all honesty, unlikely to work. And the losing side would be so substantial that the political crisis would not go away.
If any referendum leading to a vote for independence shows significant regional divisions within Catalonia, so that for example, Barcelona, Tarragona and their hinterlands were overwhelmingly pro-Union with Spain, should they be allowed secede from secession? If that was allowed, could the independent parts of Catalonia afford independence?
For me, the only way to avoid things ending up as pointless bickering (like a Stormont on the Med) would be if, somehow, moderate Catalan nationalists and moderate Spanish unionists could agree enough common ground for a government that would deliver the things that Catalonia needs on a day to day basis, and park this question for a while to let the tempers cool.
Not that that will happen.
re @NornIrishAddick. Although I have some sympathy with this Catalonia is different with its own language and historical region. I can't see any other democratic reason for it not to be a simple majority.
Why can't people accept democracy and the will of the people?
It is entirely democratic to require a clear majority in favour of a given proposition, and even a minimum threshold. In fact, because of the nature of referenda, in comparison to Parliamentary elections and votes, it's almost a requirement to avoid the fabled tyranny of the majority. Because people are offered only a binary choice, the outcome of a referendum cannot be nuanced to recognise and represent a range of opinions and possible outcomes, and will almost inevitably lead to politicians (at least some) seeking to interpret the vote in ways that it is reasonable to assume the electorate did not intend.
And, dare I say it, if you look at the spectrum of Catalan nationalists, you will find numbers who would lay claim to parts of Valencia and the Balearics. It is not as if Catalonia represents a discrete linguistic and national/regional identity, a people united in a single world view, and entirely contained within its borders.
If you believe that those who wish to claim a particular national identity, one one side of the debate, such as the Catalan nationalists, can leave an existing political body, in Spain, as the result of a referendum, then surely the same courtesy must be extended to those who seek to remain Spanish within Catalonia. So the only fair outcome of a binding referendum would be one whereby an independent Catalonia would, most likely, be shorn of both Barcelona and Tarragona.
And, as I’m sure has been said before, nobody is denying the will of the majority of the people. It’s the loud but significant minority who aren’t getting what they want.
Come back to Barcelona Charlie, there's a cell with your name on it.
I mainly talk of principles. Firstly I believe in democracy as a first principle. Secondly there is generally a big difference between voting for a party who is for or against independence than there is in an actual referendum. Although different Scotland and UK show that. A proper referendum would have the benefit of stopping a lot of the arguments (at least for a few years). The economic impact, effect on people's jobs etc can be properly debated during the lead up to an election.
I'll clear up the last question first as it is relatively easy. The reason the justice system has moved so much faster regarding the Independece movement as opposed to the larcenous activities of Sr. Barcenas and various other politicians, is that it was rapidly bringing the región into chaos. I have cited the economic destruction the Independence bloc wrought in a month here on a number of occasions. There was a real need to stop that in it's tracks - the causation was a series of illegal laws and decisions in the Catalan parliament, which could with broad strokes be described as economic terrorism. When they had their powers suspended, the Catalan Generalitat was offered an election so not really a lack of democracy, but an emergency which needed resolving before it went utterly out of control.
The prison charges are now slower, as temporarily the breach in the law has been halted. But the people who didi taht are mostly at liberty. I can't see how you could impliate Pep Guardiola for stating his views or wearing a yellow ribbon. But his views are in my opinión wrong to put it mildly, and lies if I'm honest. The politicians who are in prison and those who will probably follow them are not there because they wanted to vote. They are there because they broke a series of laws in organising the referéndum, and then tried to use the result to declare Independence. They consistently ignored (or better said contemptuously rode over) the views of around half the population, as they consider them unworthy of having an opinión - about as demcratic as anything Britain First would organise in the UK. The reason some of them are in prison now was they were considered a flight risk (something Puigdemont demonstrated) or that they would continue to try to mount a Republic and/or destroy proof of what they had done. A few got out by demonstrating that they would not leave and swearing to obey the Spanish constitution.
The 'peacefull demonstrations' could be said to be just that, except that logically you might wonder why there is so much apetite to leave. That comes back to the undercurrent preached in Catalunya that 'Spain is robbing us'. The numbers are not nearly as simple as those bandied about by politicians. Catalunya is unable to pay it's pension bill without a huge anual subsidy from Spain. They also owe Spain a horrible amout of money, more than any other región. Unfortunately facts seldom enter in a modern election, and people generally tend to let their emotions run free. Those who believe Spain is stealing from Catalunya would be unlikely to waste their time listening to someone who proved things otherwise, while anyone who believed Independence would cause finacial ruin would equally not wish to hear an opposite point of view.
We now have an ongoing threat of a very quick repetition. The Indpendence leaders are already clainming the Catalan people have 'shown they want independence', and want out of Spain, which is a fairly unjustfiable extrapolation of the election results which showed no such thing. To add to this, Puigdemont has now said that given the clear vote for independence given by the Catalans on thursday, his idea is to return as president and continue where he left off (when he ran away) pushing forward his program of independence.
The guardian actually published another article the day before the one above, in which they merely commented on the huge divisions now created in Catalunya. That the Independenc bloc wish to push ahead with their program in open defiance of around half the populace will do nothing but sow more hydra's teeth. To be fair, Ciutadans, who were the overall party winners, as well as the first ever non Catalan party to win an election in the territory, have also said they will be pushing to renew ties with Spain. It's nothing like as radical as the plans of Carles Puigdemont, but it is 180º away from what the anti Spanish want. Having such a polarised population makes any sort of dialogue next to imposible. Further arrests won't help at all, but then why should law beakers get away scot free because they are politicians? Puigdemont has claimed it would be ilegal to arrest a lawfully elected president, but personally I don't see why that should give him immunity. Besides, his party know full well what the consequences are if he returns to Spain. Five of their candidates are either in jail or face it if they return from their flight. That means their party will not have them available to vote. That they put them up anyway suggests they know how that will go down with their adherents and did it anyway to fan the flames of hatred. It's a fair tactic if brinkmanship is their plan, but it will just keep the political scene ungovernable. They would have everyone believe that they believe in peacefull protest. but their actions are more like small children who when they get punished for misbehaving, threaten to do worse next time.
A referéndum would probably solve nothing now - neither side would accept the terms of the other as both sides would want to guarantee victory before giving the nod. But there is the problem that Catalunya has been part of Spain as long as Spain has existed. The idea they will just yell 'cheerio we're off' and move out is farcical. @redman made a good point yesterday that the voters in an election may not represent the numbers in a yes/no referéndum vote. But there are almost certainly not enough on the Independence side to justify the turmoil of declaring a new republic.
I wonder how the seperatists will take it when Barcelona and Tarragona declare independence from Catalunya.
Merry christmas anyway.
The election results are in. The seperatists have two more seats than the unionists, but less votes.
Seperatists: Great. We have a clear mandate from the Catalan people. Lets start preparing independence tomorrow.
Unionists: what about us? We live here too. We are half the population.
Seperatists: you don't count. If you vote against independence you are second class citizens and your opinions are invalid.
Unionists. But we were born here like you. We speak Catalan and everything.
Seperatists: who cares? You are fascists for opposing the true will of Catalunya. If you don't like it go and live somewhere else
We don't need you.
Unionists: but we work and pay taxes that contribute. We own homes. Our children go to school here.
Seperatists: not even listening to you any more. Go away. Nyah nyah nya nya nyaaaah see we can't even here you now.
Unionists: but what about democracy?
Seperatists: you still here? Piss off.
Anyway, rather how about this:
Separatists: We want a better deal for ourselves not everyone. We're holding a referendum. Viva independence!
Spain: ummm that's against the law of the land and the nation's constitution.....
Separatists: Sod Spanish law and it's constitution, it doesn't suit us. Viva Catalonia! Viva independence! *Sticks two fingers up at the constitution*
Spain: ok, but, that's breaking the law so you know, we WILL have to stop you of course.
Separatists: Well that's just anti democratic, how dare you try and stop us for breaking the law! Bastardo's! *Holds referendum*
Spain: *whack*
Separatists: fascists
Spain: Just shut up already
Separatists: Well, a quarter of the region turned out to vote and most of those were for independence. The will of the people! We won! We declare independence and to separate from Spain. And I won't have to pay a high rate in tax to cover poor areas anymore! Viva independence! Viva Catalonia!
Unionists: Umm hi there?!?!?
Separatists: Quiet. Most of you people are 3rd generation immigrants, your views and opinions don't matter, only that of true Catalan's.
Unionists: wow, steady on there Adolf....
Spain, Well, we are going to have to arrest those of you inciting independence.
Separatists: no worries, hey supporters, the fascists are coming for us, just remember now we did nothing wrong *ahem* we want you to protest, fight, and stand up for what you believe in! Fight for your rights! Just excuse me while I go hide in another country out of harm's way tehehehe.
Spain: well this is going nowhere fast really. Ok, stuff it, elections.
Separatists: Yes! We won again! Will of people etc.
Unionists: Well it's not quite that black and white really is it I mean look..
Separatists: Quiet.
Spain: Christ on a bike......
Merry Christmas
Feliz Navidad
The difference between the "referendum" and the election is like chalk and cheese. In terms of a fair campaign, proper electoral process with formal scrutiny, the election was the real McCoy.
Two million voted "si" with no plan except UDI back in September. Those same two million voted for separatist parties the other day but this time they were accompanied by two million "remainers".
This in no time to play winner takes all in what is a 50:50 position.
People are assuming separatists have won the election but CUP have been crushed; Puigdemont is an opportunist in exile; and the numbers in exile or jail might prevent them voting Puigdemont in as Catalonia President?
Not sure how the process works but those trying to defend those arrested might stop to contemplate the charges? Sedition and misuse of state funds are fairly serious - being an elected politician is no defence. Surely only extreme separatists and anarchists will defend these people. Let's be clear: it was an illegal referendum designed to support a unilateral declaration of independence. Plus there are allegations that state funds have been used to support this campaign.
The tensions are high and it's going to take years to diffuse, with potential economic damage in the meantime? Every month will reveal a new chapter - same as Brexit and Trump.
Long term, the only way forwards is for centre right and centre left voters to back candidates with sensible pragmatic solutions at the next election. Like the UK, there's no telling when the next one will be - funny how some power crazed, nationalist ideologues hold countries to ransom as they seek power?!
Felix Navidad!
(no response needed, please)
no reponce needed
Of course, even if a ballot for independence were set at 70% in favour triggering a 'leave' process, that process is still fraught with difficulty - but at least it would indicate enough of the population thought it was worth pursuing.
Cuitadans have been criticised by the ruling Popular Party in Madrid for not even trying to form a government first before giving the Independence brigada a go, despite the fact that a) Ciutadans will find it next to imposible to get a majority and b) The Popular pary did exactly the same thing a year ago in the general election.
Meantime, there is a news ítem cirulating on a site called El Confidencial which outlines Puigdemont's plans for the next legislature. He ambitiously plans maternity leave of 16 weeks for both partners and a mínimum salary of 1018 euros per month which will be great but a bit hard to finance, He also `plans to seize control of the airporta and rail network, and prepare a didg¡tal register for the new republic (whatever that is) so he appears to feel there is no limit to what he can achieve with the full backing of the Catalan people. I'm a bit surised he didn't mention this during the elections, but they were entirly fought on hatred or love of Spain so there was really no need to offer anything like a manifestó.
As someone jovially posted on here on christmas day, Christ on a bike........