i know its really easy to just blame the government, but for example the other week there was program on overweight and on benefits, there was a women who weighed something like 39 stone, her her husband and son sat around the house all day eating and drinking shit all paid for by benefits can someone explain how that's theresa may or how that is any part of tory ideololgy?, i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
That example is nothing to do with foreign aid or immigration either.
It is to do with cheating the system and generally being a lazy slob
Cheating the system? Like large scale tax evasion by huge corporations, you mean?
yep that aswell, as @Henry Irving sumarised perfectly above what i gave were "some" examples of what adds to the issues not a comprehensive list of every single item that leads to families living in awful conditions in this country.
If we're going to call out Palarsehater on his opinions like immigration being a factor, (which even if not the main reason, it's certainly a factor (however small) and will certainly be the perceived case to those in Rochdale etc., going about their day to day struggles).
But, if we are calling that out, lets also call out the "It's all the Tories fault", as my wife is a long-standing social worker, dealing with theses issues every single day and her and her colleagues have worked through both governments for years and the impact on the most vulnerable in our society and the scale of the problem is the same, no matter who is running the Country!!
I feel like that when I walk round Woolwich. I wonder how some of the people survive, in what is becoming a very expensive area to live. I find myself worrying more and more about it as I get older and am thankful for what I have, which isn't a lot, but enough.
I received my yearly tax statement this week. On the back page it lists exactly what my tax went on down to the pound. Overseas aid was second to bottom I think. I need to check it again.
It's an interesting read - is that a new thing as I've never noticed it before?
I often think the same. I don't see the solutions being banded around by left or right wing ideologues actually working and it feels like the problem is just getting worse.
That's because the solutions are very complicated, very expensive and very time consuming (and take a generation or two for the effects to be seen). The money would have to come from somewhere, and would be a tough sell for the government, particularly one that likes to blame people rather than help them.
aside from providing affordable social housing, there would need to be some incentive to provide jobs, for a workforce that is unskilled, possibly poorly motivated ad educated, and try to bring about cultural change to cause a long term beak in the poverty cycle. This will involve joined up efforts amongst government sectors, employers, and the charity sector. It can be done I reckon.
We used to have a system that supported people, so the bloke struggling with four kids would have got financial advice, cooking lessons, home hygiene advice etc etc.
It costs money but it actually saved us money, governments who don't get that are imbeciles.
This is why I get so frustrated at the amount of aid that goes overseas 0.7% ( not saying it’s not worthy ) but get our own house in order, also the amount of benefit scroungers contributes massively to why we see this sort of thing becoming a constant, will probably get flagged for this but isn't that amount of immigration also a factor?.
Hard to find exact figures, but found numbers for 2014. After you strip out money reclaimed, fraudulent benefits paid came in at around £2billion. Total benefits to EU immigrants came in at around £0.5billion, meaning that EU immigrants were a net £3billion to the UK economy.
Meanwhile HMRC estimates tax evasion cost the UK economy £34billion.
This vilification of the poor and immigrants needs to stop. Vodafone have stolen more from the UK economy than all the benefit cheats combined!
100% this for me. Not advocating benefits fraud, and a crime is a crime. But this country has its priorities wrong in terms of who they go after first. Financially, if there is £34bn to be recouped from tax evasion, versus £2bn benefits fraud, it's a no brainer.
re the wider issue, it is disgusting as others have already pointed out. It simply comes down to the fact that the areas that have been left behind simply don't count anymore as 'useful' parts of society. They're simply a burden, so they are overlooked, forgotten about and left to die a slow painful death. Governments in this country (Labour/Tory) just don't do enough.
I think the tories are the scummiest with things like this, but previous labour governments have hardly covered themselves in glory in my lifetime
Whilst immigration may be good in some respects, it does cause many problems as well. Our population has grown massively in the last 20 years and this must cause pressure on housing, schools, healthcare and roads. All those extra people have to live somewhere.
Whilst immigration may be good in some respects, it does cause many problems as well. Our population has grown massively in the last 20 years and this must cause pressure on housing, schools, healthcare and roads. All those extra people have to live somewhere.
Of course, and that includes migration from other parts of the country - Chelmsford is now getting full of pesky Londoners who can't afford to live in London. Unless infrastructure is increased to cope with increased demand, there is going to be problems.
i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
And that's the point. They may "add" to the poverty by making it worse but the poverty will still be there.
Cutting foreign aid and banning immigration won't be magic wands. The reasons behind the poverty, as Leroy listed above, are far more complex and deep rooted and so need long term solutions like more social housing, better transport, better schools, industry and jobs, better health care, price controls on essential items like gas and electric, properly managed benefits.
It will take more than the little extra money saved from foreign aid to achieve all that. It needs a long term plan and the political will to implement it but neither party has offered that while the both the mainstream and fringe parties just offer sound bites like "£350m a week for the NHS" "No magic money tree", etc etc or try to blame "them" for all the problems.
This is why I get so frustrated at the amount of aid that goes overseas 0.7% ( not saying it’s not worthy ) but get our own house in order, also the amount of benefit scroungers contributes massively to why we see this sort of thing becoming a constant, will probably get flagged for this but isn't that amount of immigration also a factor?.
Dear oh Dear.
whats up too much almond milk on your corn flakes?
As you came to price my wardrobes but were too busy to get back to me with a proper price in a reasonable time due to ‘workload’, I wonder. 1. Did I strike you as a snowflake ? and 2. Maybe less time on here and more attending to work issues would be a good move?
When you see extreme poverty it is without doubt heartbreaking unless you have no humanity. I would think its was one of the primary reasons the Labour Party was formed 100 more years ago. Its been here for along time we CHOOSE to see it or not, but its there. Its calledunderclass for a reason.
Saying immigration has nothing to do with poverty is as much tosh as saying its the cause of it. IMO mass immigration and the impact of 3 million people coming into the country in a short period has to have some impact. The pressure on housing, GPs, Councils,Hospitals lower income jobs market the impact is really felt on the lower end of society.
Austerity ? well its taken 5/6 years but we are now seeing it and feeling it. It hasnt caused poverty but it has to have an impact when the "safety nets" of directed services are no longer there.
Its what to do about it thats the million $ question and its not Socialism ! Countrys that are "Socialist" still have poverty--- yes herd it all before "its the WRONG type of socialism" --- funny it always is !!!!!
IMO its up to all regardless of what colour your politics are (or if you have any) to do a little. Volunteer your time in a centre or put a tin in the Sally Army food bank.( we did today and do most weeks). Governments have only one real agenda and thats to stay in power---- they dont give a feck about those in real poverty/the under class they cant help keep the Government in power.
Blame the Torys, the weather, Rd, Jim Davidson , Tony fecking Blair--that twat Corbyn or whom ever but have basic humanity and help the poor fuckers that need it --- how ever small that help is
i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
And that's the point. They may "add" to the poverty by making it worse but the poverty will still be there.
Cutting foreign aid and banning immigration won't be magic wands. The reasons behind the poverty, as Leroy listed above, are far more complex and deep rooted and so need long term solutions like more social housing, better transport, better schools, industry and jobs, better health care, price controls on essential items like gas and electric, properly managed benefits.
It will take more than the little extra money saved from foreign aid to achieve all that. It needs a long term plan and the political will to implement it but neither party has offered that while the both the mainstream and fringe parties just offer sound bites like "£350m a week for the NHS" "No magic money tree", etc etc or try to blame "them" for all the problems.
This is why I get so frustrated at the amount of aid that goes overseas 0.7% ( not saying it’s not worthy ) but get our own house in order, also the amount of benefit scroungers contributes massively to why we see this sort of thing becoming a constant, will probably get flagged for this but isn't that amount of immigration also a factor?.
Dear oh Dear.
whats up too much almond milk on your corn flakes?
As you came to price my wardrobes but were too busy to get back to me with a proper price in a reasonable time due to ‘workload’, I wonder. 1. Did I strike you as a snowflake ? and 2. Maybe less time on here and more attending to work issues would be a good move?
Wardrobes? never met you before in my life.
You wanna bet.
getting a bit weird now
am not a carpenter so have no idea who you are
edit; do remember you asked for some recommendations on where to get fitted wardrobes, i asked where are you based, you replied keston.
and that was the end of the conversation if you can call it that.
hardly the fly by night tradesman as you was portraying earlier and that i should attend to work issues?.
masicat; This is a real long shot. Anybody know of someone who makes and fits quality furniture like wardrobes and media units etc. I know a lot of carpenters, but I need someone who designs , makes and fits top end or close. After months of searching I am starting to think I might need to forget it and buy free standing stuff. Anyway, someone who turns up on time and then provides an estimate quickly would be a start. Thanks.
i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
And that's the point. They may "add" to the poverty by making it worse but the poverty will still be there.
Cutting foreign aid and banning immigration won't be magic wands. The reasons behind the poverty, as Leroy listed above, are far more complex and deep rooted and so need long term solutions like more social housing, better transport, better schools, industry and jobs, better health care, price controls on essential items like gas and electric, properly managed benefits.
It will take more than the little extra money saved from foreign aid to achieve all that. It needs a long term plan and the political will to implement it but neither party has offered that while the both the mainstream and fringe parties just offer sound bites like "£350m a week for the NHS" "No magic money tree", etc etc or try to blame "them" for all the problems.
This is why I get so frustrated at the amount of aid that goes overseas 0.7% ( not saying it’s not worthy ) but get our own house in order, also the amount of benefit scroungers contributes massively to why we see this sort of thing becoming a constant, will probably get flagged for this but isn't that amount of immigration also a factor?.
Dear oh Dear.
whats up too much almond milk on your corn flakes?
As you came to price my wardrobes but were too busy to get back to me with a proper price in a reasonable time due to ‘workload’, I wonder. 1. Did I strike you as a snowflake ? and 2. Maybe less time on here and more attending to work issues would be a good move?
Wardrobes? never met you before in my life.
You wanna bet.
getting a bit weird now
am not a carpenter so have no idea who you are
edit; do remember you asked for some recommendations on where to get fitted wardrobes, i asked where are you based, you replied keston.
and that was the end of the conversation if you can call it that.
hardly the fly by night tradesman as you was portraying earlier and that i should attend to work issues?.
if you could clear that up that would be great.
Any chance you could quote me for some new kitchen units? I'm in Bexley.
i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
And that's the point. They may "add" to the poverty by making it worse but the poverty will still be there.
Cutting foreign aid and banning immigration won't be magic wands. The reasons behind the poverty, as Leroy listed above, are far more complex and deep rooted and so need long term solutions like more social housing, better transport, better schools, industry and jobs, better health care, price controls on essential items like gas and electric, properly managed benefits.
It will take more than the little extra money saved from foreign aid to achieve all that. It needs a long term plan and the political will to implement it but neither party has offered that while the both the mainstream and fringe parties just offer sound bites like "£350m a week for the NHS" "No magic money tree", etc etc or try to blame "them" for all the problems.
This is why I get so frustrated at the amount of aid that goes overseas 0.7% ( not saying it’s not worthy ) but get our own house in order, also the amount of benefit scroungers contributes massively to why we see this sort of thing becoming a constant, will probably get flagged for this but isn't that amount of immigration also a factor?.
Dear oh Dear.
whats up too much almond milk on your corn flakes?
As you came to price my wardrobes but were too busy to get back to me with a proper price in a reasonable time due to ‘workload’, I wonder. 1. Did I strike you as a snowflake ? and 2. Maybe less time on here and more attending to work issues would be a good move?
Wardrobes? never met you before in my life.
You wanna bet.
getting a bit weird now
am not a carpenter so have no idea who you are
edit; do remember you asked for some recommendations on where to get fitted wardrobes, i asked where are you based, you replied keston.
and that was the end of the conversation if you can call it that.
hardly the fly by night tradesman as you was portraying earlier and that i should attend to work issues?.
if you could clear that up that would be great.
Any chance you could quote me for some new kitchen units? I'm in Bexley.
haha and after all this i am not a carpenter but had had some v basic units fitted around the time he/she was asking.
masicat; This is a real long shot. Anybody know of someone who makes and fits quality furniture like wardrobes and media units etc. I know a lot of carpenters, but I need someone who designs , makes and fits top end or close. After months of searching I am starting to think I might need to forget it and buy free standing stuff. Anyway, someone who turns up on time and then provides an estimate quickly would be a start. Thanks.
The thing about "there's always poverty" is more or less true in the modern day and age, but I really don't think it's always been true. When I grew up in the 70s, my dad earned F* all and my mum stayed at home until I was 11, we didn't have much but there was always food on the table. The big difference between then and now is the cost of living is much higher (we lived in a council house, no way we'd get one now). We holidayed (if at all) in places like Ramsgate or Sheerness. My Dad didn't have a car, just a moped. My mum had to go shopping every day. The cost of food, housing, transport have all gone up far more than wages at the bottom end of the labour market since then. The big differences as I see them: most working people were in unions and the unions were prepared to fight for better wages; and people had the time to make food from ingredients, or make things around the house (it's a lot cheaper in the long run). Of course there's a reason people had more time - their work was likely to be a lot nearer to where they lived. I know people who think a 2 hour commute each way is doable, this is madness when you add in spending at least 9 hours at work. There was poverty (we were probably quite poor but I don't remember feeling it until I went to secondary school) but there were more opportunities to help yourself, whether through doing stuff around the house or whatever. But there weren't any foodbanks that I ever heard of. Either way, things have got a lot worse in the last 8 years or so. Austerity is a deliberate policy designed to make the poorest pay and it's been successful at that (even if it hasn't brought down the deficit or any of the things Osborne and Cameron claimed). The number of beggars and homeless has mushroomed (there were three beggars in one short stretch of Catford last week - where no one has any money anyway). Disabled people get certified as fit for work as they die. There is a mean-spiritedness across the whole country. It's great that people give to food banks to help those most in need, but there's something seriously wrong when those most in need include people in full time work. With a couple of exceptions, I don't think most policy makers ever come into contact with the world of foodbanks or pretty much any poverty. Is it any wonder they concentrate on what the papers think is important? People need to be able to help themselves but that includes skills and confidence, as well as time: in a system where if you're on benefits you're expect to spend 30 hours a week job-seeking, it's almost as if it's set up to punish them rather than help.
If we're going to call out Palarsehater on his opinions like immigration being a factor, (which even if not the main reason, it's certainly a factor (however small) and will certainly be the perceived case to those in Rochdale etc., going about their day to day struggles).
But, if we are calling that out, lets also call out the "It's all the Tories fault", as my wife is a long-standing social worker, dealing with theses issues every single day and her and her colleagues have worked through both governments for years and the impact on the most vulnerable in our society and the scale of the problem is the same, no matter who is running the Country!!
Maybe fair points, but the scummy Tories are in power and have been for a few years now, and its not got any better, so they could have done something but the rich have just got richer.
i know its really easy to just blame the government, but for example the other week there was program on overweight and on benefits, there was a women who weighed something like 39 stone, her her husband and son sat around the house all day eating and drinking shit all paid for by benefits can someone explain how that's theresa may or how that is any part of tory ideololgy?, i pointed out a few other factors which do add to the reasons of poverty in this country.
Channel 5 possibly ? Owned by the same idiot who owns the Express
Benefit fraud accounts for a very small percentage of benefit spend . It’s suits the government to pretend otherwise. Far money is saved by people not claiming what they are entitled to than is lost through benefit fraud..... it could be best summarised as this
A Tory , and two poor fellas are sitting at a table with 5 biscuits on a plate. The Tory takes 4 biscuits and turns to one of the poor fellas and says...... that bloke just nicked your biscuit
If we're going to call out Palarsehater on his opinions like immigration being a factor, (which even if not the main reason, it's certainly a factor (however small) and will certainly be the perceived case to those in Rochdale etc., going about their day to day struggles).
But, if we are calling that out, lets also call out the "It's all the Tories fault", as my wife is a long-standing social worker, dealing with theses issues every single day and her and her colleagues have worked through both governments for years and the impact on the most vulnerable in our society and the scale of the problem is the same, no matter who is running the Country!!
That is a very different opinion than the one I hear from Charities, Voluntary Sector groups and Social Workers who tell my that things are tougher than they remember, that what services remain are at breaking point and that poverty and social exclusion are very much on the increase.
You can't reduce benefits, close services and slash funding and expect to see things stay the same.
If we're going to call out Palarsehater on his opinions like immigration being a factor, (which even if not the main reason, it's certainly a factor (however small) and will certainly be the perceived case to those in Rochdale etc., going about their day to day struggles).
But, if we are calling that out, lets also call out the "It's all the Tories fault", as my wife is a long-standing social worker, dealing with theses issues every single day and her and her colleagues have worked through both governments for years and the impact on the most vulnerable in our society and the scale of the problem is the same, no matter who is running the Country!!
I respectfully disagree. As would my wife, who has also been in social services during the period of austerity politics. If your wife hasn't seen the impact of these policies in her workplace she's very lucky and/or her employers have been very good at finding the resources to enable that situation from elsewhere in the authority. Tbf it's my experience that those in social services are often unaware of what's going on elsewhere because councils prioritise maintaining that area of work. Rightly perhaps.
I started work in the Thatcher years and she was certainly no friend of the public sector but what this current administration have done, with the support of the Lib Dems who I shall never forgive, is systematically pull apart our public services to the extent they are failing in many, many areas of work. There is no comparison with the Tory's record and the Blair/Brown governments - in terms of the support provided to our public services to deliver the services the population of one of the richest countries in world should have a reasonable expectation of receiving.
The Tories have stood on a platform of austerity for the last three elections. It should be no surprise to anyone that negative factors in society such as homelessness, poverty, wage stagnation, increased hospital waiting times...in fact poorer public services right across the board are the result of this.
In my view these things are not coincidental whatsover and people are trying to create a false equivalency between the two parties.
Comments
But, if we are calling that out, lets also call out the "It's all the Tories fault", as my wife is a long-standing social worker, dealing with theses issues every single day and her and her colleagues have worked through both governments for years and the impact on the most vulnerable in our society and the scale of the problem is the same, no matter who is running the Country!!
It costs money but it actually saved us money, governments who don't get that are imbeciles.
re the wider issue, it is disgusting as others have already pointed out. It simply comes down to the fact that the areas that have been left behind simply don't count anymore as 'useful' parts of society. They're simply a burden, so they are overlooked, forgotten about and left to die a slow painful death. Governments in this country (Labour/Tory) just don't do enough.
I think the tories are the scummiest with things like this, but previous labour governments have hardly covered themselves in glory in my lifetime
http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-impact-of-migration-on-uk-population-growth/
Hope the above link works
and FOUR kids. Maybe he was able to support four kids then he lost his wife/job/health?
I don't know but let's assume it's all his fault, it's what the programme makers want you do to.
Poverty Porn
I would think its was one of the primary reasons the Labour Party was formed 100 more years ago.
Its been here for along time we CHOOSE to see it or not, but its there. Its calledunderclass for a reason.
Saying immigration has nothing to do with poverty is as much tosh as saying its the cause of it. IMO mass immigration and the impact of 3 million people coming into the country in a short period has to have some impact. The pressure on housing, GPs, Councils,Hospitals lower income jobs market the impact is really felt on the lower end of society.
Austerity ? well its taken 5/6 years but we are now seeing it and feeling it. It hasnt caused poverty but it has to have an impact when the "safety nets" of directed services are no longer there.
Its what to do about it thats the million $ question and its not Socialism ! Countrys that are "Socialist" still have poverty--- yes herd it all before "its the WRONG type of socialism" --- funny it always is !!!!!
IMO its up to all regardless of what colour your politics are (or if you have any) to do a little. Volunteer your time in a centre or put a tin in the Sally Army food bank.( we did today and do most weeks).
Governments have only one real agenda and thats to stay in power---- they dont give a feck about those in real poverty/the under class they cant help keep the Government in power.
Blame the Torys, the weather, Rd, Jim Davidson , Tony fecking Blair--that twat Corbyn or whom ever but have basic humanity and help the poor fuckers that need it --- how ever small that help is
am not a carpenter so have no idea who you are
edit; do remember you asked for some recommendations on where to get fitted wardrobes, i asked where are you based, you replied keston.
and that was the end of the conversation if you can call it that.
hardly the fly by night tradesman as you was portraying earlier and that i should attend to work issues?.
if you could clear that up that would be great.
masicat; This is a real long shot. Anybody know of someone who makes and fits quality furniture like wardrobes and media units etc. I know a lot of carpenters, but I need someone who designs , makes and fits top end or close. After months of searching I am starting to think I might need to forget it and buy free standing stuff. Anyway, someone who turns up on time and then provides an estimate quickly would be a start. Thanks.
palarsehater said:
@masicat where are you based?.
masicat; Keston
none of this strange fantasy coming out to give estimates and making up lies about workload.
but hey whatever floats your boat
Yep, apologies. Sincere apologies.
It was just getting interesting
The cost of food, housing, transport have all gone up far more than wages at the bottom end of the labour market since then.
The big differences as I see them: most working people were in unions and the unions were prepared to fight for better wages; and people had the time to make food from ingredients, or make things around the house (it's a lot cheaper in the long run).
Of course there's a reason people had more time - their work was likely to be a lot nearer to where they lived. I know people who think a 2 hour commute each way is doable, this is madness when you add in spending at least 9 hours at work. There was poverty (we were probably quite poor but I don't remember feeling it until I went to secondary school) but there were more opportunities to help yourself, whether through doing stuff around the house or whatever. But there weren't any foodbanks that I ever heard of.
Either way, things have got a lot worse in the last 8 years or so. Austerity is a deliberate policy designed to make the poorest pay and it's been successful at that (even if it hasn't brought down the deficit or any of the things Osborne and Cameron claimed). The number of beggars and homeless has mushroomed (there were three beggars in one short stretch of Catford last week - where no one has any money anyway). Disabled people get certified as fit for work as they die. There is a mean-spiritedness across the whole country. It's great that people give to food banks to help those most in need, but there's something seriously wrong when those most in need include people in full time work.
With a couple of exceptions, I don't think most policy makers ever come into contact with the world of foodbanks or pretty much any poverty. Is it any wonder they concentrate on what the papers think is important? People need to be able to help themselves but that includes skills and confidence, as well as time: in a system where if you're on benefits you're expect to spend 30 hours a week job-seeking, it's almost as if it's set up to punish them rather than help.
Benefit fraud accounts for a very small percentage of benefit spend . It’s suits the government to pretend otherwise. Far money is saved by people not claiming what they are entitled to than is lost through benefit fraud..... it could be best summarised as this
A Tory , and two poor fellas are sitting at a table with 5 biscuits on a plate. The Tory takes 4 biscuits and turns to one of the poor fellas and says...... that bloke just nicked your biscuit
You can't reduce benefits, close services and slash funding and expect to see things stay the same.
I started work in the Thatcher years and she was certainly no friend of the public sector but what this current administration have done, with the support of the Lib Dems who I shall never forgive, is systematically pull apart our public services to the extent they are failing in many, many areas of work. There is no comparison with the Tory's record and the Blair/Brown governments - in terms of the support provided to our public services to deliver the services the population of one of the richest countries in world should have a reasonable expectation of receiving.
The Tories have stood on a platform of austerity for the last three elections. It should be no surprise to anyone that negative factors in society such as homelessness, poverty, wage stagnation, increased hospital waiting times...in fact poorer public services right across the board are the result of this.
In my view these things are not coincidental whatsover and people are trying to create a false equivalency between the two parties.