Im a Ltd Co and when i do work i still have to use RCs if in working for an LA. One stint they didnt get me the job all they did was pay me and i estimate in 3 years they made a MINIMUM of £50k on me.
At a more recent role at CBRE i know the RC was getting £125 a day for my attendance.
At Westminster City Council the head of Procurement was on £800 a day and a former Deputy head of Estates was on £450 a day for 6 years !! those costs are before the RC puts on their bit and these figures are 5 years ago.
Said before all these contractors appear on another budget line and the LAs will show a reduction in head count and wages.
Public sector recruitment used to be a complete cash cow.
I had a colleague running 8 encryption engineers at £16 per hour after a few civil servants left laptops and documents on trains.
From memory they worked for the Home Office, who gave the project to Atos Origin, who gave the roles to an IT service provider who gave the roles to my colleague.
By the time everyone took their cut the charge was £800 per day for people who were capped at 8 hours per day on £16ph.
Im a Ltd Co and when i do work i still have to use RCs if in working for an LA. One stint they didnt get me the job all they did was pay me and i estimate in 3 years they made a MINIMUM of £50k on me.
At a more recent role at CBRE i know the RC was getting £125 a day for my attendance.
At Westminster City Council the head of Procurement was on £800 a day and a former Deputy head of Estates was on £450 a day for 6 years !! those costs are before the RC puts on their bit and these figures are 5 years ago.
Said before all these contractors appear on another budget line and the LAs will show a reduction in head count and wages.
Exactly, it's not even smoke and mirrors. Someone with an ounce of sense knows this and can see it.
Budgets piss me off how they are handled like this, my firm had a cost cutting exercise about a decade ago and got rid of loads of skilled people. They were back within 6 months as contractors earning 3 times as much as before and in a lot of cases are still here. Hey, someone made their bit of budget look good so to hell with the bigger picture.
Im a Ltd Co and when i do work i still have to use RCs if in working for an LA. One stint they didnt get me the job all they did was pay me and i estimate in 3 years they made a MINIMUM of £50k on me.
At a more recent role at CBRE i know the RC was getting £125 a day for my attendance.
At Westminster City Council the head of Procurement was on £800 a day and a former Deputy head of Estates was on £450 a day for 6 years !! those costs are before the RC puts on their bit and these figures are 5 years ago.
Said before all these contractors appear on another budget line and the LAs will show a reduction in head count and wages.
Exactly, it's not even smoke and mirrors. Someone with an ounce of sense knows this and can see it.
Budgets piss me off how they are handled like this, my firm had a cost cutting exercise about a decade ago and got rid of loads of skilled people. They were back within 6 months as contractors earning 3 times as much as before and in a lot of cases are still here. Hey, someone made their bit of budget look good so to hell with the bigger picture.
and in that instance its arguable those people were falsely self employed
Tend to find that the good operational people in HR get promoted quickly to management and that's why you can often get a bad impression of the people at the coal face.
Also, it helps to remember they are there to protect the business as opposed to the employee, keep that in mind and you'll probably stop being disappointed by HR!
Absolutely spot on.
It is amazing how many employees use the phrase "I'll take this to HR" as if HR exist as the employees' advocate.
However often the incentives of both the employee and the employer are aligned eg. the employer wants to avoid an embarrassing tribunal case and the employee wants a payout.
Tend to find that the good operational people in HR get promoted quickly to management and that's why you can often get a bad impression of the people at the coal face.
Also, it helps to remember they are there to protect the business as opposed to the employee, keep that in mind and you'll probably stop being disappointed by HR!
Absolutely spot on.
It is amazing how many employees use the phrase "I'll take this to HR" as if HR exist as the employees' advocate.
However often the incentives of both the employee and the employer are aligned eg. the employer wants to avoid an embarrassing tribunal case and the employee wants a payout.
If that's 'often' then the organisation needs to take a close look at their ER practices and processes.
Im a Ltd Co and when i do work i still have to use RCs if in working for an LA. One stint they didnt get me the job all they did was pay me and i estimate in 3 years they made a MINIMUM of £50k on me.
At a more recent role at CBRE i know the RC was getting £125 a day for my attendance.
At Westminster City Council the head of Procurement was on £800 a day and a former Deputy head of Estates was on £450 a day for 6 years !! those costs are before the RC puts on their bit and these figures are 5 years ago.
Said before all these contractors appear on another budget line and the LAs will show a reduction in head count and wages.
Always astounds me the importance SMT’s etc put on headcount and salary spend in isolation, applauding the fact both have reduced but being oblivious to the fact agency/contractors has trebled accordingly.
Was playing cricket with someone starting his own recruitment company the other day. I asked him loads of questions trying to make him say something interesting about it. He failed.
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
Used a few recently to change job. Either they have a job in mind and contact you (I would guess by skimming linkedin or in some cases, the phone book) or you contact them and they send your CV to prospective clients.
Had some success. If a recruiter has you on their file and knows a bit about you, they are better placed to match make. Experiences vary, but I'm in a very niche job, where only a few recruiters are vying for the same business - often a firm will drag them all in for a career day, and you end up getting phoned by all of them for the same position. So it gets a bit cutthroat.
@PragueAddick's advice is spot on, the more information you and the recruiter have the better.
I am also a recruiter (Technology) - I have actually just started my own business, and I completely accept the sentiment shared by a lot of these posts.
The biggest issue is the creation of LinkedIn, and how easy it is to now find people. It has become far too easy for people to enter the industry, spam a load of messages out which aren't tailored in anyway, and often just look for a few "buzz" words on people's profile. Unfortunately, due to how competitive the job market is, in Tech at least, if you spam 100 people, at least 5 people will come back. The issue is people are treated as a commodity, a product, and a CV isn't seen as being another Human Being.
However, the recruiters who are useful will be those with contacts, with strong relationships with clients and candidates. More often than not, the conversations I have with people - they will not be looking for a new role, so there is no point trying to push them into anything - rather trying to understand what they might be looking for in the future, and get to know them. Then, if something similar to their interests pop's up, you can get in contact. It is becoming much more relationship driven again.
Just from experience of working alongside recruiters, I would always be very wary of those who won't reveal the name of the client. Chances are, they will not have any jobs for you, rather it will be an information gathering exercise, they will get your CV, and spam it around without your permission in the hope a client bites, and they get their fee. If you are asked for where you are interviewing, again, information gathering, they want to send other profiles to compete with yours, reducing your chances of getting the job. I hate bad practises, with a passion.
Recruiters can be useful, and from a salary point of view, they will always be trying to get you the best possible deal, as their fee is reflected in this. The opposite to this is Contract recruiters who will be trying to pay you as little as possible - most ridiculous I've seen recently is a 2k a week margin.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
I am also a recruiter (Technology) - I have actually just started my own business, and I completely accept the sentiment shared by a lot of these posts.
The biggest issue is the creation of LinkedIn, and how easy it is to now find people. It has become far too easy for people to enter the industry, spam a load of messages out which aren't tailored in anyway, and often just look for a few "buzz" words on people's profile. Unfortunately, due to how competitive the job market is, in Tech at least, if you spam 100 people, at least 5 people will come back. The issue is people are treated as a commodity, a product, and a CV isn't seen as being another Human Being.
However, the recruiters who are useful will be those with contacts, with strong relationships with clients and candidates. More often than not, the conversations I have with people - they will not be looking for a new role, so there is no point trying to push them into anything - rather trying to understand what they might be looking for in the future, and get to know them. Then, if something similar to their interests pop's up, you can get in contact. It is becoming much more relationship driven again.
Just from experience of working alongside recruiters, I would always be very wary of those who won't reveal the name of the client. Chances are, they will not have any jobs for you, rather it will be an information gathering exercise, they will get your CV, and spam it around without your permission in the hope a client bites, and they get their fee. If you are asked for where you are interviewing, again, information gathering, they want to send other profiles to compete with yours, reducing your chances of getting the job. I hate bad practises, with a passion.
Recruiters can be useful, and from a salary point of view, they will always be trying to get you the best possible deal, as their fee is reflected in this. The opposite to this is Contract recruiters who will be trying to pay you as little as possible - most ridiculous I've seen recently is a 2k a week margin.
Happy to answer any questions!
Had that when I was last job hunting (well I am again now) when I was staving off redundancy
Went for a job loved it, interview went great and thought it was mine... Agency were really good at keeping me informed too
Kept applying for jobs just in case of bad news and got a call from the Agency: Huntress who'd "seen my CV" for one role and wanted to know which jobs I'd been interviewing for and who they'd been with (like a fool I bloody told them didnt I), asked me to go in and register with them which I said I didnt have time to do at that stage, which was something no other Agency had asked me to waste my time doing.
Few days later I was browsing the job boards online and found this role I'd gone for being advertised by Huntress and it was them that filled the role in the end
Absolute bastards for it in my opinion yet only blame myself, wont ever make that mistake again myself!!
As I've said before, I am yet to meet a recruiter who is not a complete self interested, money grabbing shit.
They are second hand car salesmen in suits and are absolute scum.
I'd regulate the industry, as a second hand car salesman might cost you a couple of grand on a car, but recruiters can completely ruin your career progression. Especially when it's your first experience with one and you haven't yet realised how despicable they are.
There's another factor at work which at least in part may excuse the failure of recruitment consultants to follow through on the process they outline to candidates, and that is the role of corporate HR people. In my opinion, their role is almost always detrimental to achieving the goal of principle interest to shareholders, namely hiring the best available talent as quickly as possible. Most of them are insecure, duplicitous and unwilling to accept that the hiring manager to whom the position reports might actually be the best person to judge what is needed in the right person. They slow down and complicate the process by their insistence on largely useless devices such as assessment centres or psychometric tests. In most cases, companies would actively benefit from their removal from the corporate structure, and yet inexplicably their power seems to be growing. This may seem my usual polemic viewpoint, but trust me, the vast majority of my clients agree, and these people are country managers or marketing directors, who find themselves powerless to fight their malign influence. The moment I decided to wind down my business came last autumn when I was asked to find a brand manager for one of the big brewers, reporting to the marketing director, a lady whom I had placed in the company two year earlier. And yet some mid ranking recruitment manager who had joined the company from a big telco a few months earlier, pronounced that the marketing director and I were forbidden to talk to each other, and all communication would go through him (or more precisely an even more junior colleague of his, because he himself was soooo busy). The marketing director and I have known each other more than 20 years, and she's friendly with my wife too. Normally a calm almost Zen like character, the MKD was almost lost for words on the phone, but said " I am starting to feel like Alice in Wonderland here..I mean, I'm on the management board, and yet I get this order." Miraculously, we got the job done by dutifully emailing the junior HR girl throughout the process and bccc'ing each other on each mail. And calling. Typically 3 days later the HR girl would simply pass on my email (which of course the MKD already had.), and eventually relay back to me news which the MKD had already advised me of.
As I've said before, I am yet to meet a recruiter who is not a complete self interested, money grabbing shit.
They are second hand car salesmen in suits and are absolute scum.
I'd regulate the industry, as a second hand car salesman might cost you a couple of grand on a car, but recruiters can completely ruin your career progression. Especially when it's your first experience with one and you haven't yet realised how despicable they are.
Apart from that, they're great.
Please don't take this as me, trying to defend bad practice at all - because I'm not.
But what I will see that in almost every company world wide, there will be people within those companies who are willing to do anything to progress up the ladder quicker, be that take credit for others work, take shortcuts etc. The same can be said with recruitment - Promotion is often based upon arbitrary billing figures - make 200k for the business over a rolling 12 months, boom, promotion, pay rise, commission etc. The difference is, with most companies, this is all internal and as an outsider you wouldn't see it. Because recruitment is outward focused, it affects a broader range of people and is far more visible.
In agreement that the industry does need regulation, and from your experience about recruiters I can appreciate your sentiment, but to tar everyone with the same brush as being despicable I would say is a tad harsh, but I'm just a recruiter, so you know...
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Hi Bob, read this after my rant. The interesting, key, thing for me in what you write, is that apparently you, personally, appoint and deal directly with the headhunters. That is great, and should deliver the most efficient transparent outcome for the recruiter and the candidates. Unfortunately HR people seem intent on undermining that clean, efficient process. And notwithstanding that maybe Czech offices of companies are less able to withstand internal corporate bullshit than their British counterparts, I think you'd still be staggered if I named names of the companies to whom my rant broadly applies.
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
A few days ago I had a consultant email me in a panic. She was looking for someone to take on a two-week contract starting this Monday. I exchanged emails swiftly as she was in a mad rush (even though I was really busy), sent her my CV, examples of my work and even said "I don't know enough about this to know if I am a good fit, feel free to tell me if I am not" - and pointed out I would need to cancel a couple of other shifts if this was to come off.
As soon as she saw my work she presumably decided I was not a good fit, or someone better came along. But rather than say so, she just stopped replying to me. And that pretty much sums up my experience since going freelance. I don't seek out recruitment firms, they tend to find me and try to fit my square peg into a variety of shaped holes. And if I don't fit, they just stop talking to you. And if they put you forward for a job and you don't get it, they will never consider you for a job in future.
I realise that it's a cutthroat business, that jobs are massively over subscribed (particularly in my industry), but in this instance I put my life on standby, including other work, to be available and help her in a mad panic. Not having the decency to say "thanks but no thanks" is really poor form, and indicative of how recruiters approach their work.
I've had a couple of agencies that are way better than that, and they stand out as exceptions. I am loathe to tar everybody with the same brush, I know that's not fair. I am just speaking from experience. I started off very naively thinking recruiters were there to help me, and now realise that, not only are you right about their purpose being to help their clients and not me, they are largely cold enough to give not a single f*** about candidates. And I just don't think it's too much to ask to be a bit more... human!
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
This is v useful and seems a good way to be looking at it prior to contacting one. How do you know which recruiter/agency to get in touch with first? Just pick one at random? I've had a look to see if there's anywhere that gives reviews but failed to find a site.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I'm looking to get into analytics. I'm currently a structural engineer but am starting an MSc in Applied Statistics in October so want to make the move into data analytics/science prior to starting that really. I have some experience but mostly academic and in side projects at work. The lack of experience could make the shift difficult but am happy to start in a pretty junior position and I think the benefit of getting in touch with a recruiter may be that they can understand my situation beforehand so that I'm not applying for positions that I don't realise are too senior for me.
I've been contacted by loads of recruiters on Linkedin but because I don't have much about the career move I want to make on my profile, they all work in the engineering sector. I'm also hesitant to state too much about the career shift incase it burns any bridges at my current workplace too soon.
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
This is v useful and seems a good way to be looking at it prior to contacting one. How do you know which recruiter/agency to get in touch with first? Just pick one at random? I've had a look to see if there's anywhere that gives reviews but failed to find a site.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I'm looking to get into analytics. I'm currently a structural engineer but am starting an MSc in Applied Statistics in October so want to make the move into data analytics/science prior to starting that really. I have some experience but mostly academic and in side projects at work. The lack of experience could make the shift difficult but am happy to start in a pretty junior position and I think the benefit of getting in touch with a recruiter may be that they can understand my situation beforehand so that I'm not applying for positions that I don't realise are too senior for me.
I've been contacted by loads of recruiters on Linkedin but because I don't have much about the career move I want to make on my profile, they all work in the engineering sector. I'm also hesitant to state too much about the career shift incase it burns any bridges at my current workplace too soon.
Somewhere on your LinkedIn page, get some key words regarding the analytics areas you want to work in.
Something like "Desired role" blah blah blah, and you will start to appear in the searches of recruiters looking for candidates in the sort of area you are targeting. Use jobserve and jobsite, cv library, Reed, and Monster to register your cv and search for roles, and check out jobs on LinkedIn.
I've been in recruitment for 20 years, and there are some really shit recruiters out there. Normally the young skinny suit brigade who have been to uni and got a degree that isn't going to get them a job. I know I'll try recruitment!! Look at the profile of the recruiter you are supposed to be dealing with on LinkedIn. If they've been at loads of companies for only a year or two then they're probably in the wrong job, and you want to avoid them. The ones who have been with companies 4-5 years or more, and only got 2-3 companies are the ones you want to talk to. They've done a good job and they do earn good money, but they are the ones with the best roles or better volume of roles. Their roles will be properly qualified with the clients, and they'll only work roles that they are likely to fill.
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
This is v useful and seems a good way to be looking at it prior to contacting one. How do you know which recruiter/agency to get in touch with first? Just pick one at random? I've had a look to see if there's anywhere that gives reviews but failed to find a site.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I'm looking to get into analytics. I'm currently a structural engineer but am starting an MSc in Applied Statistics in October so want to make the move into data analytics/science prior to starting that really. I have some experience but mostly academic and in side projects at work. The lack of experience could make the shift difficult but am happy to start in a pretty junior position and I think the benefit of getting in touch with a recruiter may be that they can understand my situation beforehand so that I'm not applying for positions that I don't realise are too senior for me.
I've been contacted by loads of recruiters on Linkedin but because I don't have much about the career move I want to make on my profile, they all work in the engineering sector. I'm also hesitant to state too much about the career shift incase it burns any bridges at my current workplace too soon.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Hi Bob, read this after my rant. The interesting, key, thing for me in what you write, is that apparently you, personally, appoint and deal directly with the headhunters. That is great, and should deliver the most efficient transparent outcome for the recruiter and the candidates. Unfortunately HR people seem intent on undermining that clean, efficient process. And notwithstanding that maybe Czech offices of companies are less able to withstand internal corporate bullshit than their British counterparts, I think you'd still be staggered if I named names of the companies to whom my rant broadly applies.
Not all CHROs are the same, Richard.
Not least because I have resisted all attempts to instill 'corporate processes'. We are a privately owned company, abeit a very big one, and for me HR is a (the) business driver not a blocker fixated on administration and process.
some of the big recruitment companys bonus to their staff includes how many CVs and how many candidates they interview. Another issue're the above ,dont assume that because your CV is in the company data base its actually being shared about.It will be if you make a point of phoning up EVERY month and telling various people your still looking. They also try the "send your CV again anyway ".
One of the biggest Recruiters have branches in London ,Bromley,Brighton. with what i do i can be in Exec Management---Facilties Management or Engineering.They also have Private and Public .So to cover all those bases for London and the Southern Home Counties i have to contact possibly 18 consultants !!! The trick is find a key person (they stand out) and keep in contact ,even if they move companies.
A prime example of how they operate. I went to undertake a contract review for one on the big Service Providers at a huge contract.It was a new contract and in trouble. it was UK wide but their Crawley area had the biggest issues.I based myself at Crawley. I completed the task in days --- it was a huge mess. When i reported back they then informed me the Regional FM and the Regional Account Manager were not on hols as i had been told but were sick with stress !!Would i stay---- i did for another 3 months---they offered me the full time job and i told them no fecking chance. I was thanked by the Client and wondered off.Few weeks go past and i get a call from the Agency Brighton office trying to bollock me for taking a contract in their area and the London office had no right "giving" me that role !!! Well lets say the twonk on the phone got alot of Anglo Saxon around who the feck was he----it was regional----the money over a decade i have generated for their company and to do one etc etc i received a full apology from the company via email ----but thats their bonus etc in operation.
Mate of mine used to work for Reed, said that fights used to break out amongst colleagues all the time because they were in direct competition with each other
Comments
At a more recent role at CBRE i know the RC was getting £125 a day for my attendance.
At Westminster City Council the head of Procurement was on £800 a day and a former Deputy head of Estates was on £450 a day for 6 years !! those costs are before the RC puts on their bit and these figures are 5 years ago.
Said before all these contractors appear on another budget line and the LAs will show a reduction in head count and wages.
I had a colleague running 8 encryption engineers at £16 per hour after a few civil servants left laptops and documents on trains.
From memory they worked for the Home Office, who gave the project to Atos Origin, who gave the roles to an IT service provider who gave the roles to my colleague.
By the time everyone took their cut the charge was £800 per day for people who were capped at 8 hours per day on £16ph.
Budgets piss me off how they are handled like this, my firm had a cost cutting exercise about a decade ago and got rid of loads of skilled people. They were back within 6 months as contractors earning 3 times as much as before and in a lot of cases are still here. Hey, someone made their bit of budget look good so to hell with the bigger picture.
< and in that instance its arguable those people were falsely self employed
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
Had some success. If a recruiter has you on their file and knows a bit about you, they are better placed to match make. Experiences vary, but I'm in a very niche job, where only a few recruiters are vying for the same business - often a firm will drag them all in for a career day, and you end up getting phoned by all of them for the same position. So it gets a bit cutthroat.
@PragueAddick's advice is spot on, the more information you and the recruiter have the better.
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
The biggest issue is the creation of LinkedIn, and how easy it is to now find people. It has become far too easy for people to enter the industry, spam a load of messages out which aren't tailored in anyway, and often just look for a few "buzz" words on people's profile. Unfortunately, due to how competitive the job market is, in Tech at least, if you spam 100 people, at least 5 people will come back. The issue is people are treated as a commodity, a product, and a CV isn't seen as being another Human Being.
However, the recruiters who are useful will be those with contacts, with strong relationships with clients and candidates. More often than not, the conversations I have with people - they will not be looking for a new role, so there is no point trying to push them into anything - rather trying to understand what they might be looking for in the future, and get to know them. Then, if something similar to their interests pop's up, you can get in contact. It is becoming much more relationship driven again.
Just from experience of working alongside recruiters, I would always be very wary of those who won't reveal the name of the client. Chances are, they will not have any jobs for you, rather it will be an information gathering exercise, they will get your CV, and spam it around without your permission in the hope a client bites, and they get their fee. If you are asked for where you are interviewing, again, information gathering, they want to send other profiles to compete with yours, reducing your chances of getting the job. I hate bad practises, with a passion.
Recruiters can be useful, and from a salary point of view, they will always be trying to get you the best possible deal, as their fee is reflected in this. The opposite to this is Contract recruiters who will be trying to pay you as little as possible - most ridiculous I've seen recently is a 2k a week margin.
Happy to answer any questions!
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Went for a job loved it, interview went great and thought it was mine... Agency were really good at keeping me informed too
Kept applying for jobs just in case of bad news and got a call from the Agency: Huntress who'd "seen my CV" for one role and wanted to know which jobs I'd been interviewing for and who they'd been with (like a fool I bloody told them didnt I), asked me to go in and register with them which I said I didnt have time to do at that stage, which was something no other Agency had asked me to waste my time doing.
Few days later I was browsing the job boards online and found this role I'd gone for being advertised by Huntress and it was them that filled the role in the end
Absolute bastards for it in my opinion yet only blame myself, wont ever make that mistake again myself!!
They are second hand car salesmen in suits and are absolute scum.
I'd regulate the industry, as a second hand car salesman might cost you a couple of grand on a car, but recruiters can completely ruin your career progression. Especially when it's your first experience with one and you haven't yet realised how despicable they are.
Apart from that, they're great.
I mean, WTAF?
But what I will see that in almost every company world wide, there will be people within those companies who are willing to do anything to progress up the ladder quicker, be that take credit for others work, take shortcuts etc. The same can be said with recruitment - Promotion is often based upon arbitrary billing figures - make 200k for the business over a rolling 12 months, boom, promotion, pay rise, commission etc. The difference is, with most companies, this is all internal and as an outsider you wouldn't see it. Because recruitment is outward focused, it affects a broader range of people and is far more visible.
In agreement that the industry does need regulation, and from your experience about recruiters I can appreciate your sentiment, but to tar everyone with the same brush as being despicable I would say is a tad harsh, but I'm just a recruiter, so you know...
As soon as she saw my work she presumably decided I was not a good fit, or someone better came along. But rather than say so, she just stopped replying to me. And that pretty much sums up my experience since going freelance. I don't seek out recruitment firms, they tend to find me and try to fit my square peg into a variety of shaped holes. And if I don't fit, they just stop talking to you. And if they put you forward for a job and you don't get it, they will never consider you for a job in future.
I realise that it's a cutthroat business, that jobs are massively over subscribed (particularly in my industry), but in this instance I put my life on standby, including other work, to be available and help her in a mad panic. Not having the decency to say "thanks but no thanks" is really poor form, and indicative of how recruiters approach their work.
I've had a couple of agencies that are way better than that, and they stand out as exceptions. I am loathe to tar everybody with the same brush, I know that's not fair. I am just speaking from experience. I started off very naively thinking recruiters were there to help me, and now realise that, not only are you right about their purpose being to help their clients and not me, they are largely cold enough to give not a single f*** about candidates. And I just don't think it's too much to ask to be a bit more... human!
This is v useful and seems a good way to be looking at it prior to contacting one. How do you know which recruiter/agency to get in touch with first? Just pick one at random? I've had a look to see if there's anywhere that gives reviews but failed to find a site.
I'm looking to get into analytics. I'm currently a structural engineer but am starting an MSc in Applied Statistics in October so want to make the move into data analytics/science prior to starting that really. I have some experience but mostly academic and in side projects at work. The lack of experience could make the shift difficult but am happy to start in a pretty junior position and I think the benefit of getting in touch with a recruiter may be that they can understand my situation beforehand so that I'm not applying for positions that I don't realise are too senior for me.
I've been contacted by loads of recruiters on Linkedin but because I don't have much about the career move I want to make on my profile, they all work in the engineering sector. I'm also hesitant to state too much about the career shift incase it burns any bridges at my current workplace too soon.
Something like "Desired role" blah blah blah, and you will start to appear in the searches of recruiters looking for candidates in the sort of area you are targeting.
Use jobserve and jobsite, cv library, Reed, and Monster to register your cv and search for roles, and check out jobs on LinkedIn.
I've been in recruitment for 20 years, and there are some really shit recruiters out there.
Normally the young skinny suit brigade who have been to uni and got a degree that isn't going to get them a job. I know I'll try recruitment!!
Look at the profile of the recruiter you are supposed to be dealing with on LinkedIn.
If they've been at loads of companies for only a year or two then they're probably in the wrong job, and you want to avoid them.
The ones who have been with companies 4-5 years or more, and only got 2-3 companies are the ones you want to talk to.
They've done a good job and they do earn good money, but they are the ones with the best roles or better volume of roles.
Their roles will be properly qualified with the clients, and they'll only work roles that they are likely to fill.
Not all CHROs are the same, Richard.
Not least because I have resisted all attempts to instill 'corporate processes'. We are a privately owned company, abeit a very big one, and for me HR is a (the) business driver not a blocker fixated on administration and process.
Another issue're the above ,dont assume that because your CV is in the company data base its actually being shared about.It will be if you make a point of phoning up EVERY month and telling various people your still looking.
They also try the "send your CV again anyway ".
One of the biggest Recruiters have branches in London ,Bromley,Brighton. with what i do i can be in Exec Management---Facilties Management or Engineering.They also have Private and Public .So to cover all those bases for London and the Southern Home Counties i have to contact possibly 18 consultants !!! The trick is find a key person (they stand out) and keep in contact ,even if they move companies.
A prime example of how they operate.
I went to undertake a contract review for one on the big Service Providers at a huge contract.It was a new contract and in trouble. it was UK wide but their Crawley area had the biggest issues.I based myself at Crawley. I completed the task in days --- it was a huge mess. When i reported back they then informed me the Regional FM and the Regional Account Manager were not on hols as i had been told but were sick with stress !!Would i stay---- i did for another 3 months---they offered me the full time job and i told them no fecking chance. I was thanked by the Client and wondered off.Few weeks go past and i get a call from the Agency Brighton office trying to bollock me for taking a contract in their area and the London office had no right "giving" me that role !!! Well lets say the twonk on the phone got alot of Anglo Saxon around who the feck was he----it was regional----the money over a decade i have generated for their company and to do one etc etc
i received a full apology from the company via email ----but thats their bonus etc in operation.