Going through it all again, made redundant 3 weeks ago for the fourth time in my long career. I’m in the creative design industry (Studio Manager/Traffic Manager/Project Manager). Im lucky I’ve got some massive company names on my CV, so recruiters do sit up and take notice when I register with them and send CV over. Last week I was ‘interviewed’ by a kid of about 18 I reckon, absolutely everything he said was cliched and was obviously taught to him on a course, he had no soft skills (l appreciate hes learning) and was as false as hell, he had no grasp of what I did, no idea of what an SLA or NDA was regarding a client contract, I was kind to him as he was a junior, but Christ it was painful.....the search continues.
As I've said before, I am yet to meet a recruiter who is not a complete self interested, money grabbing shit.
They are second hand car salesmen in suits and are absolute scum.
I'd regulate the industry, as a second hand car salesman might cost you a couple of grand on a car, but recruiters can completely ruin your career progression. Especially when it's your first experience with one and you haven't yet realised how despicable they are.
Apart from that, they're great.
Please don't take this as me, trying to defend bad practice at all - because I'm not.
But what I will see that in almost every company world wide, there will be people within those companies who are willing to do anything to progress up the ladder quicker, be that take credit for others work, take shortcuts etc. The same can be said with recruitment - Promotion is often based upon arbitrary billing figures - make 200k for the business over a rolling 12 months, boom, promotion, pay rise, commission etc. The difference is, with most companies, this is all internal and as an outsider you wouldn't see it. Because recruitment is outward focused, it affects a broader range of people and is far more visible.
In agreement that the industry does need regulation, and from your experience about recruiters I can appreciate your sentiment, but to tar everyone with the same brush as being despicable I would say is a tad harsh, but I'm just a recruiter, so you know...
Ah I know exactly what to expect from recruiters and it doesn't bother me anymore. I learnt my lesson after the first time I trusted one, my first job out of uni. Now I make it clear to them that they are scum, that I won't meet them, that I need them to get a job, and that if they put me in front of a client, I will get the job and they will get their commission and everyone is happy.
Although they are taken aback a bit my approach they tend to realise I'm not dicking about
Trying to justify being a piece of shit doesn't work for me when it's people's futures that are being messed about with. People play games with me at work and I'll tell them they're a snake by the coffee machine. Some jumped up snot nosed kid who thinks he calls all the shots, I don't have the opportunity to let talk to on a one to one level. If I did they'd let me know when the role I've have been put forward for wasn't interested in seeing me, that the job they'd talked to me about had been filled etc
Good luck @Greenie when it comes to your level, those that know, know. I've used recruiters, but anyone from the past you are still in touch with might point you in the right directilon might help. The grapevine still exists and it isn't inherently wrong
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Hi Bob, read this after my rant. The interesting, key, thing for me in what you write, is that apparently you, personally, appoint and deal directly with the headhunters. That is great, and should deliver the most efficient transparent outcome for the recruiter and the candidates. Unfortunately HR people seem intent on undermining that clean, efficient process. And notwithstanding that maybe Czech offices of companies are less able to withstand internal corporate bullshit than their British counterparts, I think you'd still be staggered if I named names of the companies to whom my rant broadly applies.
Not all CHROs are the same, Richard.
Not least because I have resisted all attempts to instill 'corporate processes'. We are a privately owned company, abeit a very big one, and for me HR is a (the) business driver not a blocker fixated on administration and process.
Interesting debate that has been raging on for a long time. Ever since McKinsey coined the term ‘the war for talent’ and Dave Ulrich introduced is HR business partnering model. A have an outsiders view on all things HR and recruitment in that I don’t work in either function, but have for the last 5 years been selling to companies who sell to HR functions, essentially like a middle man, brokering ‘qualified’ meetings. I say ‘qualified’, because although my company has a database of senior HR bods who we invite to events, round tables etc and tell us they have issues that the commercial partners we pitch to may be able to solve, its very hard to ‘qualify’ an opportunity as a third party, because as Bob mentioned, he does his business with his preferred search firms, based on a relationship established over x period of time.
And this where it becomes tricky for recruitment consultants and a lot of other 3rd party businesses in general in connecting a buyer with a supplier or a candidate with an employer. This imo is particularly true of entry level roles and recruitment consultants. The margins will be tighter as the salaries aren’t as high, and your recruitment consultant placing entry level candidates, is very likely going to be taking a scatter gun approach in calling as many candidates as possible, as they have a high volume commitment to their client and the likelihood is they have a number of clients, most probably in the same industry looking for the same talent. As you get higher up the food chain, the whole thing should become more relationship led, tailored and based on what Bob mentions as a cultural fit. Most certainly, when you’re up in the board appointment, senior management role and you’re placing salaries of say £50/60/70k up to the big bucks, the whole thing should be as slick and as near perfect as it can be, because the cost of screwing up appointments at that level will very quickly lose the search firm the relationships and the contract
For me it all depends on a number of factors, but I often find the role and the salary that’s being appointed for, SHOULD, determine the quality of the recruiter. The other challenge that Prague has highlighted is that unfortunately to an extent, both HR and Recruitment as functions are very process oriented. I’ve seen a huge shift over the years in all sorts of supposedly wonderful ways both HR and recruitment functions can automate/improve processes and ‘align their HR/Recruitment strategy to the organisational objectives’ (I’ve basically been drowning in management consultancy and buzzword speak since 2006). Some of it has a place and now there’s a massive shift as Bob says, to recruiting for a cultural fit, and going beyond that, removing unconscious bias, identifying softer skills such as empathy, communication and emotional intelligence. There’s a good side to this, and a bad side. The good side is, if it works correctly and you get places based on a fit with these skills, you could end up really enjoying your time at the company and work there for a decent length of time. The bad news is, as Prague highlights, is that it creates yet more opportunity for other parties to get involved, sometimes for the worst, wanting you to complete unnecessary psychometrics or go through this applicant tracking system, because the company have just shelled out £££ on a new supplier and the business partner in the HR/talent acquisition team needs this or that box ticked.
I’ve had a career in front line sales, selling one to one meetings at events and I’ve always ‘cold called’ for 13 years now. This is exactly what the majority of your run of the mill recruitment consultants have had to do, so if you are in that position where you’re finding it frustrating as a candidate, my advice is don’t take it personally, and if they’re not really getting anywhere after a week or so, or feel they’re not listening to you, it’s likely they’re working for a firm that are KPI happy and are under pressure to hit numbers/targets. As hard as it is, because searching for a job can be soul destroying, try and find another, or if you really can, do as much research to go direct if companies offer that
as everyone has mentioned, there’ll be good recruiters and bad.
Going through it all again, made redundant 3 weeks ago for the fourth time in my long career. I’m in the creative design industry (Studio Manager/Traffic Manager/Project Manager). Im lucky I’ve got some massive company names on my CV, so recruiters do sit up and take notice when I register with them and send CV over. Last week I was ‘interviewed’ by a kid of about 18 I reckon, absolutely everything he said was cliched and was obviously taught to him on a course, he had no soft skills (l appreciate hes learning) and was as false as hell, he had no grasp of what I did, no idea of what an SLA or NDA was regarding a client contract, I was kind to him as he was a junior, but Christ it was painful.....the search continues.
Going through it all again, made redundant 3 weeks ago for the fourth time in my long career. I’m in the creative design industry (Studio Manager/Traffic Manager/Project Manager). Im lucky I’ve got some massive company names on my CV, so recruiters do sit up and take notice when I register with them and send CV over. Last week I was ‘interviewed’ by a kid of about 18 I reckon, absolutely everything he said was cliched and was obviously taught to him on a course, he had no soft skills (l appreciate hes learning) and was as false as hell, he had no grasp of what I did, no idea of what an SLA or NDA was regarding a client contract, I was kind to him as he was a junior, but Christ it was painful.....the search continues.
Good luck mate
What is an NDA? 😉
Best of luck with the job search, very frustrating and not easy at the moment.
Sure it will turn out ok - it usually does, just irritating in the meantime....
NDA is a non-disclosure agreement, decades old, but seems unchallenged in the courts because they are usually heavily weighted in favour of the employer who has all the bucks. The benefit to the employee is that they don't get the job unless they sign it. Someone needs to question the premise.
Many examples of NDAs are used to hide criminal behaviour by the beneficiary, but hey we have the best justice system in the world. Don't we,?
NDA is a non-disclosure agreement, decades old, but seems unchallenged in the courts because they are usually heavily weighted in favour of the employer who has all the bucks. The benefit to the employee is that they don't get the job unless they sign it. Someone needs to question the premise.
Many examples of NDAs are used to hide criminal behaviour by the beneficiary, but hey we have the best justice system in the world. Don't we,?
Statute trumps contract - whistleblowing legislation nullifies even the tightest of NDAs if they are preventing the exposure of criminal behaviour.
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Hi Bob, read this after my rant. The interesting, key, thing for me in what you write, is that apparently you, personally, appoint and deal directly with the headhunters. That is great, and should deliver the most efficient transparent outcome for the recruiter and the candidates. Unfortunately HR people seem intent on undermining that clean, efficient process. And notwithstanding that maybe Czech offices of companies are less able to withstand internal corporate bullshit than their British counterparts, I think you'd still be staggered if I named names of the companies to whom my rant broadly applies.
Not all CHROs are the same, Richard.
Not least because I have resisted all attempts to instill 'corporate processes'. We are a privately owned company, abeit a very big one, and for me HR is a (the) business driver not a blocker fixated on administration and process.
Interesting debate that has been raging on for a long time. Ever since McKinsey coined the term ‘the war for talent’ and Dave Ulrich introduced is HR business partnering model. A have an outsiders view on all things HR and recruitment in that I don’t work in either function, but have for the last 5 years been selling to companies who sell to HR functions, essentially like a middle man, brokering ‘qualified’ meetings. I say ‘qualified’, because although my company has a database of senior HR bods who we invite to events, round tables etc and tell us they have issues that the commercial partners we pitch to may be able to solve, its very hard to ‘qualify’ an opportunity as a third party, because as Bob mentioned, he does his business with his preferred search firms, based on a relationship established over x period of time.
And this where it becomes tricky for recruitment consultants and a lot of other 3rd party businesses in general in connecting a buyer with a supplier or a candidate with an employer. This imo is particularly true of entry level roles and recruitment consultants. The margins will be tighter as the salaries aren’t as high, and your recruitment consultant placing entry level candidates, is very likely going to be taking a scatter gun approach in calling as many candidates as possible, as they have a high volume commitment to their client and the likelihood is they have a number of clients, most probably in the same industry looking for the same talent. As you get higher up the food chain, the whole thing should become more relationship led, tailored and based on what Bob mentions as a cultural fit. Most certainly, when you’re up in the board appointment, senior management role and you’re placing salaries of say £50/60/70k up to the big bucks, the whole thing should be as slick and as near perfect as it can be, because the cost of screwing up appointments at that level will very quickly lose the search firm the relationships and the contract
For me it all depends on a number of factors, but I often find the role and the salary that’s being appointed for, SHOULD, determine the quality of the recruiter. The other challenge that Prague has highlighted is that unfortunately to an extent, both HR and Recruitment as functions are very process oriented. I’ve seen a huge shift over the years in all sorts of supposedly wonderful ways both HR and recruitment functions can automate/improve processes and ‘align their HR/Recruitment strategy to the organisational objectives’ (I’ve basically been drowning in management consultancy and buzzword speak since 2006). Some of it has a place and now there’s a massive shift as Bob says, to recruiting for a cultural fit, and going beyond that, removing unconscious bias, identifying softer skills such as empathy, communication and emotional intelligence. There’s a good side to this, and a bad side. The good side is, if it works correctly and you get places based on a fit with these skills, you could end up really enjoying your time at the company and work there for a decent length of time. The bad news is, as Prague highlights, is that it creates yet more opportunity for other parties to get involved, sometimes for the worst, wanting you to complete unnecessary psychometrics or go through this applicant tracking system, because the company have just shelled out £££ on a new supplier and the business partner in the HR/talent acquisition team needs this or that box ticked.
I’ve had a career in front line sales, selling one to one meetings at events and I’ve always ‘cold called’ for 13 years now. This is exactly what the majority of your run of the mill recruitment consultants have had to do, so if you are in that position where you’re finding it frustrating as a candidate, my advice is don’t take it personally, and if they’re not really getting anywhere after a week or so, or feel they’re not listening to you, it’s likely they’re working for a firm that are KPI happy and are under pressure to hit numbers/targets. As hard as it is, because searching for a job can be soul destroying, try and find another, or if you really can, do as much research to go direct if companies offer that
as everyone has mentioned, there’ll be good recruiters and bad.
Cultural fit doesn't need psychometrics or applicant tracking - give me half an hour with an applicant and I'll know if they will be a cultural fit. It helps that I'm a psychologist of course!
Resurrecting this thread as I’m thinking of using a recruiter to try and change career.
Has anyone had any success using them recently and is it an easy process? How do you find a good one as clearly some horror stories here.
What do you want to do mate?
I'm not a recruiter myself but work with 10/12 businesses trying to make them better (to stop people like Jimmy writing rants).
There are some shithouses out there but there are also some really decent people/good companies.
It's not all cold calling now - there's a shift happening quietly from what I'm seeing.
I would agree with that. Not surprisingly with my job I deal with a few agencies, mainly headhunters for senior positions as we manage quite well with direct recruitment for the entry level roles and grow middle management from within.
I'm very selective in who I work with and have developed relationships with them to such an extent that they know I won't take any nonsense and they know they have to put in front of me candidates that will meet the criteria, including (especially) the cultural fit. They invariably do that because they have taken the time and effort to understand the business and its needs.
There are some shockers though and they get very short shrift from me.
Hi Bob, read this after my rant. The interesting, key, thing for me in what you write, is that apparently you, personally, appoint and deal directly with the headhunters. That is great, and should deliver the most efficient transparent outcome for the recruiter and the candidates. Unfortunately HR people seem intent on undermining that clean, efficient process. And notwithstanding that maybe Czech offices of companies are less able to withstand internal corporate bullshit than their British counterparts, I think you'd still be staggered if I named names of the companies to whom my rant broadly applies.
Not all CHROs are the same, Richard.
Not least because I have resisted all attempts to instill 'corporate processes'. We are a privately owned company, abeit a very big one, and for me HR is a (the) business driver not a blocker fixated on administration and process.
That sounds like the ideal approach to me Bob. And if you are privately owned, that certainly helps.
Of course you are right in your first sentence. The irony about the company in my rant, is that in the first stage of this latest engagement, they had a proper HRD and she remains one of the best I have worked with. She saw her role in this process as a facilitator rather than a filter. I had to have good arguments for the candidates I presented, before putting them to the CEO, but she also showed she had hired me because I specialize in marketing and know that sector and the subtle differences within it. The CEO is a tricky guy to deal with and I was really glad that she was pushing him to action, because she also understood that we were in a thought market with just 2% national unemployment and relative booming growth, everyone had another offer in their back pocket. Result? Marketing Director and Commercial Excellence (!) Director hired in short order. And then... the brewer, a Global, did one of those regional cluster reorganization things, and she was out, replaced by a shadow of a woman who had reported to her, a Hungarian whom I never saw, but who brought in the young telco guy, who writes impressive sounding lectures on best practice on Linked In and totally fails to follow them. Meanwhile that HRD went to an even more tricky place to recruit, far from the Prague epicenter, and we succeeded again. She is great, I've told her I'll suspend my retirement for her if she needs me.
i do. accept that a lot of things are different in my small market; reading the other comments, the sheer volume of recruitment activity in a small island with 66m people is a challenge I never had to face.
Went for a job the other week, they called me back in for a second interview and to present a task within 48 hours. Thought it went well and usually a good sign when they want you back in asap. Haven't heard since. Missed a call from them. No number to call back on. Emailed them a few times, nothing. Disgusting really. Big, big company as well.
Went for a job the other week, they called me back in for a second interview and to present a task within 48 hours. Thought it went well and usually a good sign when they want you back in asap. Haven't heard since. Missed a call from them. No number to call back on. Emailed them a few times, nothing. Disgusting really. Big, big company as well.
Update on this one: Just been told I should have received feedback on my second interview on 3rd June....my first interview was 11th June and my second interview 14th June. Utter bull.
Hi @Leeds_Addick as a recruitment consultant (albeit niche and senior management) here is my advice. Remember that they are paid by the clients. They have no duty of care to you, let alone to provide a service to you. Their job is to find a candidate that fits the client's criteria. Make it clear what you are looking for, and make YOUR criteria clear. Does the consultant have something that meets those criteria? If yes, persuade them that you meet their client's criteria, as if you were talking directly to the employer. Then, ask them questions about the role (in that order). Judge how clearly they understand their client, and how close they are to the client. Ask them about process going forward. Then, I am afraid, wait and see.
A few days ago I had a consultant email me in a panic. She was looking for someone to take on a two-week contract starting this Monday. I exchanged emails swiftly as she was in a mad rush (even though I was really busy), sent her my CV, examples of my work and even said "I don't know enough about this to know if I am a good fit, feel free to tell me if I am not" - and pointed out I would need to cancel a couple of other shifts if this was to come off.
As soon as she saw my work she presumably decided I was not a good fit, or someone better came along. But rather than say so, she just stopped replying to me. And that pretty much sums up my experience since going freelance. I don't seek out recruitment firms, they tend to find me and try to fit my square peg into a variety of shaped holes. And if I don't fit, they just stop talking to you. And if they put you forward for a job and you don't get it, they will never consider you for a job in future.
I realise that it's a cutthroat business, that jobs are massively over subscribed (particularly in my industry), but in this instance I put my life on standby, including other work, to be available and help her in a mad panic. Not having the decency to say "thanks but no thanks" is really poor form, and indicative of how recruiters approach their work.
I've had a couple of agencies that are way better than that, and they stand out as exceptions. I am loathe to tar everybody with the same brush, I know that's not fair. I am just speaking from experience. I started off very naively thinking recruiters were there to help me, and now realise that, not only are you right about their purpose being to help their clients and not me, they are largely cold enough to give not a single f*** about candidates. And I just don't think it's too much to ask to be a bit more... human!
I also work in recruitment and I get a lot of candidates come in and complain that other agencies dont keep in contact.
Will have been doing this 3 years in March and I have always done my best to keep in contact with those who are working and those who aren't.
Ill have a couple who fall through the cracks due to the nature of business, mostly firefighting when someone lets you down!
Point is (not trying to say how wonderful I appear btw!) that I do it so they come back if they did leave because they know we give a shit.
Keeping in contact helped me talk a temp member of staff down from jacking in his job and life due to his depression! Just value people and they will work hard for you!
As I've said before, I am yet to meet a recruiter who is not a complete self interested, money grabbing shit.
They are second hand car salesmen in suits and are absolute scum.
I'd regulate the industry, as a second hand car salesman might cost you a couple of grand on a car, but recruiters can completely ruin your career progression. Especially when it's your first experience with one and you haven't yet realised how despicable they are.
Apart from that, they're great.
Please don't take this as me, trying to defend bad practice at all - because I'm not.
But what I will see that in almost every company world wide, there will be people within those companies who are willing to do anything to progress up the ladder quicker, be that take credit for others work, take shortcuts etc. The same can be said with recruitment - Promotion is often based upon arbitrary billing figures - make 200k for the business over a rolling 12 months, boom, promotion, pay rise, commission etc. The difference is, with most companies, this is all internal and as an outsider you wouldn't see it. Because recruitment is outward focused, it affects a broader range of people and is far more visible.
In agreement that the industry does need regulation, and from your experience about recruiters I can appreciate your sentiment, but to tar everyone with the same brush as being despicable I would say is a tad harsh, but I'm just a recruiter, so you know...
Ah I know exactly what to expect from recruiters and it doesn't bother me anymore. I learnt my lesson after the first time I trusted one, my first job out of uni. Now I make it clear to them that they are scum, that I won't meet them, that I need them to get a job, and that if they put me in front of a client, I will get the job and they will get their commission and everyone is happy.
Although they are taken aback a bit my approach they tend to realise I'm not dicking about
Trying to justify being a piece of shit doesn't work for me when it's people's futures that are being messed about with. People play games with me at work and I'll tell them they're a snake by the coffee machine. Some jumped up snot nosed kid who thinks he calls all the shots, I don't have the opportunity to let talk to on a one to one level. If I did they'd let me know when the role I've have been put forward for wasn't interested in seeing me, that the job they'd talked to me about had been filled etc
Bottom feeding scum.
Fair enough, guess nothing will change your viewpoint and I wouldn't be interested in trying in all honesty.
However, being called a piece of shit and being called scum, do you not feel thats a bit much because you've had a bad experience in the past?
I've been in the industry for just over 4 years, helped over 110 people find new jobs - always with a pay rise and an opportunity that was better than their last role. Yes, not everyone is successful and not everyone get's the job but that's life. Have I been well paid, yes, but I have also worked very hard. Oh well, each to their own
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Probably looking at around the £20-22k a year, with realistic total earnings of £30-35k a year. What is the industry out of interest?
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Basic of maybe £18k but OTE earnings of £100k*
That's the sort of shit you'll see on an advert but to hit that you will need to place a hedge fund manager every couple of minutes
Interesting thread for me, in the context of someone who had previously recruited through agencies before choosing to leave my role after many years and am now working through one.
In my role as a recruiter, I grew to accept the calls about any vacancies to fill (when there were none) and some of the poorly-matched candidates put forward when there were. Among them, though, were some good people who came in to fill short-term roles.
Now the situation has been reversed, it is again a mixed picture. The consultant I have been working through was one of the people I used to speak to in my old job, but hadn’t met them until I started to look for a new role myself. We had quite an open conversation then, but reading the previous comments has been a good reminder that their client (and priority) is the company I’m working for - and paying their extra 17%+ on what I get paid each day.
One other recruitment company - apparently a leading name in my area of work - were really poor and then called me randomly a few months later with confused information about my records, but no doubt just to keep my file active.
May continue to work like this in the future, but will always be wary of everything I’m told.
Went for a job the other week, they called me back in for a second interview and to present a task within 48 hours. Thought it went well and usually a good sign when they want you back in asap. Haven't heard since. Missed a call from them. No number to call back on. Emailed them a few times, nothing. Disgusting really. Big, big company as well.
Very often the bigger they are, the worse they are. They'll think everyone wants to work for them due to their size.
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Probably looking at around the £20-22k a year, with realistic total earnings of £30-35k a year. What is the industry out of interest?
Is that seriously realistic though? Adding another £13k onto your base salary? It would be a massive paycut for me in that case but is something I wonder about sometimes. I work in insight/market research/data analysis.
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Probably looking at around the £20-22k a year, with realistic total earnings of £30-35k a year. What is the industry out of interest?
Is that seriously realistic though? Adding another £13k onto your base salary? It would be a massive paycut for me in that case but is something I wonder about sometimes. I work in insight/market research/data analysis.
The only way to make good money in Recruitment is to set up by yourself (which I wouldn't recommend if you don't have experience) or by working for an agency and building your contract book.
Sadly, the IR35 changes due next April will damage the contract market. I think there will be a fair amount of Recruiters looking for new jobs or setting up by themselves in about 6 months time. It's not an industry I'd recommend for people on the outside looking in.
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Probably looking at around the £20-22k a year, with realistic total earnings of £30-35k a year. What is the industry out of interest?
Is that seriously realistic though? Adding another £13k onto your base salary? It would be a massive paycut for me in that case but is something I wonder about sometimes. I work in insight/market research/data analysis.
The only way to make good money in Recruitment is to set up by yourself (which I wouldn't recommend if you don't have experience) or by working for an agency and building your contract book.
Sadly, the IR35 changes due next April will damage the contract market. I think there will be a fair amount of Recruiters looking for new jobs or setting up by themselves in about 6 months time. It's not an industry I'd recommend for people on the outside looking in.
It's not something I'm considering seriously at all - just something I've always wondered about.
What's a starting salary like in recruitment if you were switching careers? For example, if I wanted to go into recruitment for the industry I currently work in?
Probably looking at around the £20-22k a year, with realistic total earnings of £30-35k a year. What is the industry out of interest?
Is that seriously realistic though? Adding another £13k onto your base salary? It would be a massive paycut for me in that case but is something I wonder about sometimes. I work in insight/market research/data analysis.
In all honesty, if you didn't make an extra £13k, that would be surprising - especially recruiting into the data market, which is "hot" right now in terms of recruitment, seeing how lot's of companies are trying to hire in that area.
The average fee for that market in London for placing someone I would say would be between 9-14k - so from each deal you would be looking at taking around 1-1.5k, and then that would go up should you place people in the same month - I've hired and trained graduates who have got huge paycheques within their first year - it is a job which in theory get's easier the longer you do it, and as you know the sector, it would already put you at an advantage.
Comments
I’m in the creative design industry (Studio Manager/Traffic Manager/Project Manager).
Im lucky I’ve got some massive company names on my CV, so recruiters do sit up and take notice when I register with them and send CV over.
Last week I was ‘interviewed’ by a kid of about 18 I reckon, absolutely everything he said was cliched and was obviously taught to him on a course, he had no soft skills (l appreciate hes learning) and was as false as hell, he had no grasp of what I did, no idea of what an SLA or NDA was regarding a client contract, I was kind to him as he was a junior, but Christ it was painful.....the search continues.
Although they are taken aback a bit my approach they tend to realise I'm not dicking about
Trying to justify being a piece of shit doesn't work for me when it's people's futures that are being messed about with. People play games with me at work and I'll tell them they're a snake by the coffee machine. Some jumped up snot nosed kid who thinks he calls all the shots, I don't have the opportunity to let talk to on a one to one level. If I did they'd let me know when the role I've have been put forward for wasn't interested in seeing me, that the job they'd talked to me about had been filled etc
Bottom feeding scum.
And this where it becomes tricky for recruitment consultants and a lot of other 3rd party businesses in general in connecting a buyer with a supplier or a candidate with an employer. This imo is particularly true of entry level roles and recruitment consultants. The margins will be tighter as the salaries aren’t as high, and your recruitment consultant placing entry level candidates, is very likely going to be taking a scatter gun approach in calling as many candidates as possible, as they have a high volume commitment to their client and the likelihood is they have a number of clients, most probably in the same industry looking for the same talent. As you get higher up the food chain, the whole thing should become more relationship led, tailored and based on what Bob mentions as a cultural fit. Most certainly, when you’re up in the board appointment, senior management role and you’re placing salaries of say £50/60/70k up to the big bucks, the whole thing should be as slick and as near perfect as it can be, because the cost of screwing up appointments at that level will very quickly lose the search firm the relationships and the contract
For me it all depends on a number of factors, but I often find the role and the salary that’s being appointed for, SHOULD, determine the quality of the recruiter. The other challenge that Prague has highlighted is that unfortunately to an extent, both HR and Recruitment as functions are very process oriented. I’ve seen a huge shift over the years in all sorts of supposedly wonderful ways both HR and recruitment functions can automate/improve processes and ‘align their HR/Recruitment strategy to the organisational objectives’ (I’ve basically been drowning in management consultancy and buzzword speak since 2006). Some of it has a place and now there’s a massive shift as Bob says, to recruiting for a cultural fit, and going beyond that, removing unconscious bias, identifying softer skills such as empathy, communication and emotional intelligence. There’s a good side to this, and a bad side. The good side is, if it works correctly and you get places based on a fit with these skills, you could end up really enjoying your time at the company and work there for a decent length of time. The bad news is, as Prague highlights, is that it creates yet more opportunity for other parties to get involved, sometimes for the worst, wanting you to complete unnecessary psychometrics or go through this applicant tracking system, because the company have just shelled out £££ on a new supplier and the business partner in the HR/talent acquisition team needs this or that box ticked.
I’ve had a career in front line sales, selling one to one meetings at events and I’ve always ‘cold called’ for 13 years now. This is exactly what the majority of your run of the mill recruitment consultants have had to do, so if you are in that position where you’re finding it frustrating as a candidate, my advice is don’t take it personally, and if they’re not really getting anywhere after a week or so, or feel they’re not listening to you, it’s likely they’re working for a firm that are KPI happy and are under pressure to hit numbers/targets. As hard as it is, because searching for a job can be soul destroying, try and find another, or if you really can, do as much research to go direct if companies offer that
as everyone has mentioned, there’ll be good recruiters and bad.
Best of luck with the job search, very frustrating and not easy at the moment.
Sure it will turn out ok - it usually does, just irritating in the meantime....
Many examples of NDAs are used to hide criminal behaviour by the beneficiary, but hey we have the best justice system in the world. Don't we,?
Of course you are right in your first sentence. The irony about the company in my rant, is that in the first stage of this latest engagement, they had a proper HRD and she remains one of the best I have worked with. She saw her role in this process as a facilitator rather than a filter. I had to have good arguments for the candidates I presented, before putting them to the CEO, but she also showed she had hired me because I specialize in marketing and know that sector and the subtle differences within it. The CEO is a tricky guy to deal with and I was really glad that she was pushing him to action, because she also understood that we were in a thought market with just 2% national unemployment and relative booming growth, everyone had another offer in their back pocket. Result? Marketing Director and Commercial Excellence (!) Director hired in short order. And then... the brewer, a Global, did one of those regional cluster reorganization things, and she was out, replaced by a shadow of a woman who had reported to her, a Hungarian whom I never saw, but who brought in the young telco guy, who writes impressive sounding lectures on best practice on Linked In and totally fails to follow them. Meanwhile that HRD went to an even more tricky place to recruit, far from the Prague epicenter, and we succeeded again. She is great, I've told her I'll suspend my retirement for her if she needs me.
i do. accept that a lot of things are different in my small market; reading the other comments, the sheer volume of recruitment activity in a small island with 66m people is a challenge I never had to face.
"I've just come across your CV online...."
No you didn't, I sent it to you.
"Where are you working at the moment?"
Same place it says on the CV.
"What do you do there?"
What it says on the CV.
"And what's your current situation, are you looking for a new role?"
Yes, the one I sent you my CV in response to.
Etc
Will have been doing this 3 years in March and I have always done my best to keep in contact with those who are working and those who aren't.
Ill have a couple who fall through the cracks due to the nature of business, mostly firefighting when someone lets you down!
Point is (not trying to say how wonderful I appear btw!) that I do it so they come back if they did leave because they know we give a shit.
Keeping in contact helped me talk a temp member of staff down from jacking in his job and life due to his depression! Just value people and they will work hard for you!
However, being called a piece of shit and being called scum, do you not feel thats a bit much because you've had a bad experience in the past?
I've been in the industry for just over 4 years, helped over 110 people find new jobs - always with a pay rise and an opportunity that was better than their last role. Yes, not everyone is successful and not everyone get's the job but that's life. Have I been well paid, yes, but I have also worked very hard. Oh well, each to their own
That's the sort of shit you'll see on an advert but to hit that you will need to place a hedge fund manager every couple of minutes
In my role as a recruiter, I grew to accept the calls about any vacancies to fill (when there were none) and some of the poorly-matched candidates put forward when there were.
Among them, though, were some good people who came in to fill short-term roles.
Now the situation has been reversed, it is again a mixed picture.
The consultant I have been working through was one of the people I used to speak to in my old job, but hadn’t met them until I started to look for a new role myself.
We had quite an open conversation then, but reading the previous comments has been a good reminder that their client (and priority) is the company I’m working for - and paying their extra 17%+ on what I get paid each day.
One other recruitment company - apparently a leading name in my area of work - were really poor and then called me randomly a few months later with confused information about my records, but no doubt just to keep my file active.
May continue to work like this in the future, but will always be wary of everything I’m told.
Sadly, the IR35 changes due next April will damage the contract market. I think there will be a fair amount of Recruiters looking for new jobs or setting up by themselves in about 6 months time. It's not an industry I'd recommend for people on the outside looking in.
The average fee for that market in London for placing someone I would say would be between 9-14k - so from each deal you would be looking at taking around 1-1.5k, and then that would go up should you place people in the same month - I've hired and trained graduates who have got huge paycheques within their first year - it is a job which in theory get's easier the longer you do it, and as you know the sector, it would already put you at an advantage.