Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
I think Paulie might be able to help your sister out with some work if she’s looking!
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
Has anyone actually said you “can’t have an input”?
Sorry i thought thats what @N01R4M was implying, my bad if not but thats what a past argument was on another thread.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
I think Paulie might be able to help your sister out with some work if she’s looking!
Pro Diversity or positive discrimination lists are to tackle subconscious bias rather than blatant discrimination. It's a wholly positive thing that should be encouraged across all aspects of life.
The fact that there are so few BAME managers and coaches relative to the number of players proves that there is definitely SOME reason for the discrepancy. Conscious or unconscious bias or something else entirely, but anything that addresses the problem can only be a good thing for me.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
Has anyone actually said you “can’t have an input”?
Sorry i thought thats what @N01R4M was implying, my bad if not but thats what a past argument was on another thread.
I don’t think that’s what @N01R4M was implying at all to be honest, I think he was saying that perhaps the input of a straight white male might not be the only input relevant in this debate.
To speak for myself, what I was trying t point out was that while @johnnybev1987 and many others are inclusive in their outlook, this is not universally true - and when there is a widespread inequality evident, be it female MPs or black football managers, in proportion to those qualified to fill those roles, the possibility of bias or discrimination must be considered.
If such bias is identified, then the question is what to do about it. As @paulie8290 pointed out, one person's positive discrimination can easily become someone else's negative discrimination. I believe in Belgium politics the issue has been tackled by a requirement to have a balance of gender on each party's "list" - and you can't have all the men in the top half of a list (IE most likely to be elected) and all the women in the bottom half.
Perhaps I should also, in the name of fairness, point out that some contributions on this thread have been guilty of their own little bit of unconscious bias, assuming that since this is a football forum I am male... As a woman who started her working life before the sex discrimination act was passed, I have seen the benefits that has brought. Has it removed sex discrimination? No. Has it improved matters? Yes. Is there room for further progress? Undoubtedly. And, to return to the topic of the thread, I am sure the same is true of race relations.
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
This is so well articulated and such a great representation of the problems in football with the ideas that we somehow have a "meritocracy."
Let me add one more: Sam Allardcye, Mark Hughes, and Alan Pardew keep getting work.
To speak for myself, what I was trying t point out was that while @johnnybev1987 and many others are inclusive in their outlook, this is not universally true - and when there is a widespread inequality evident, be it female MPs or black football managers, in proportion to those qualified to fill those roles, the possibility of bias or discrimination must be considered.
If such bias is identified, then the question is what to do about it. As @paulie8290 pointed out, one person's positive discrimination can easily become someone else's negative discrimination. I believe in Belgium politics the issue has been tackled by a requirement to have a balance of gender on each party's "list" - and you can't have all the men in the top half of a list (IE most likely to be elected) and all the women in the bottom half.
Perhaps I should also, in the name of fairness, point out that some contributions on this thread have been guilty of their own little bit of unconscious bias, assuming that since this is a football forum I am male... As a woman who started her working life before the sex discrimination act was passed, I have seen the benefits that has brought. Has it removed sex discrimination? No. Has it improved matters? Yes. Is there room for further progress? Undoubtedly. And, to return to the topic of the thread, I am sure the same is true of race relations.
I like most of what you put here..
although disagree with the bolded comment, there should be no split or agenda to keep a set split based on Gender/ same with race. All that should happen those who are the best should be at the top regardless of gender/race.
We have something at work similar where it focuses on equality and there is alot that goes on behind the scenes. But from an outside perspective if me and my female colleague went for a job it wouldn't make a difference at my company the gender it will be on credibility alone.
Excuse me, but where did I express a comment on whether or not I agreed with the Belgian election rules? I just described what they are! Although they do avoid the difficulties which follow in this country if a constituency party decides to have an all female [or insert here your choice of minority] candidate selection list.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I wish Jason Euell well, if this rumour is true, but selfishly hope it is something which can go alongside his work at Charlton rather than instead of it.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
Silly henry. It's because all jews are rich and so can't be discriminated against like blacks who are all poor. Look how progressive i am, brb going back to my parent's house in tunbridge wells from my flat in shoreditch (which is so edgy).
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
Silly henry. It's because all jews are rich and so can't be discriminated against like blacks who are all poor. Look how progressive i am, brb going back to my parent's house in tunbridge wells from my flat in shoreditch (which is so edgy).
#corbyn4pm
/s
There should probably be a 'tory scum' in there somewhere.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
While I would agree with you, thus hitting my Labour-leaning tendencies HARD (will be voting Green until things change, and I'm in a safe Labour seat anyway), I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion when there are plenty of others more relevant.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
Silly henry. It's because all jews are rich and so can't be discriminated against like blacks who are all poor. Look how progressive i am, brb going back to my parent's house in tunbridge wells from my flat in shoreditch (which is so edgy).
#corbyn4pm
/s
There should probably be a 'tory scum' in there somewhere.
you mean Tory Scum ™, got to make sure the royalties go to dear leader, #CommunismIsInevitable
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
While I would agree with you, thus hitting my Labour-leaning tendencies HARD (will be voting Green until things change, and I'm in a safe Labour seat anyway), I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion when there are plenty of others more relevant.
Afraid not as people like you, Public School Boy and Iainment start throwing around the flag and they get closed
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
While I would agree with you, thus hitting my Labour-leaning tendencies HARD (will be voting Green until things change, and I'm in a safe Labour seat anyway), I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion when there are plenty of others more relevant.
I'd rather give the role to Dianne Abbot that Sol f***ing Campbell.
Let's not be hasty Brendan
Oh, I don't know. She'd have England playing the 8-6-4 formation in no time.
its okay, we can just borrow the extra players and the success of the team from having extra players will pay for borrowing the players in the first place.
Why can't we just select the best available coaches? It really shouldnt matter where their families are from.
I'm certain Jason is good enough to get this job on merit anyway.
It would be much better if diversity in coaching/management happened organically, but at this stage there does seem to be a need to give a bit of a 'leg up'.
Then it is disrespectful for the FA to insist on a list of minority candidates, it suggests they are not good enough, but tick a diversity box.
However, I imagine if Euell really was good enough, he might be working a little higher than league one, maybe he just really loves Charlton.
Or maybe Euell really is good enough, but isn’t afforded to same opportunity to work higher up because he is black.
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
You absolutely have every right to an opinion and to input. However, when it comes to discrimination then it's near incontrovertible that it happens way, way more to those in the BAME community, which would be why on these issues, their input is valued more than those who are not BAME.
but this sensible thought doesn't apply in the labour party regarding anti-antisemitism where the views of the group being discriminated against can be dismissed as "smears" and as part of a "world wide conspiracy" plus some whataboutery regarding Israel.
While I would agree with you, thus hitting my Labour-leaning tendencies HARD (will be voting Green until things change, and I'm in a safe Labour seat anyway), I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion when there are plenty of others more relevant.
Afraid not as people like you, Public School Boy and Iainment start throwing around the flag and they get closed
What the absolute fuck? I have flagged you ONCE and that was for saying about Corbyn "the anti-Semitism apologist and friend of terrorists can fuck off", which was 1) very strong; 2) not entirely accurate; and 3) contributed very little to actual discussion, hence my "throwing around [of] the flag".
Why did this have to get needlessly ad hominem?! Bizarre
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
Comments
If such bias is identified, then the question is what to do about it. As @paulie8290 pointed out, one person's positive discrimination can easily become someone else's negative discrimination. I believe in Belgium politics the issue has been tackled by a requirement to have a balance of gender on each party's "list" - and you can't have all the men in the top half of a list (IE most likely to be elected) and all the women in the bottom half.
Perhaps I should also, in the name of fairness, point out that some contributions on this thread have been guilty of their own little bit of unconscious bias, assuming that since this is a football forum I am male... As a woman who started her working life before the sex discrimination act was passed, I have seen the benefits that has brought. Has it removed sex discrimination? No. Has it improved matters? Yes. Is there room for further progress? Undoubtedly. And, to return to the topic of the thread, I am sure the same is true of race relations.
Let me add one more: Sam Allardcye, Mark Hughes, and Alan Pardew keep getting work.
although disagree with the bolded comment, there should be no split or agenda to keep a set split based on Gender/ same with race. All that should happen those who are the best should be at the top regardless of gender/race.
We have something at work similar where it focuses on equality and there is alot that goes on behind the scenes. But from an outside perspective if me and my female colleague went for a job it wouldn't make a difference at my company the gender it will be on credibility alone.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I wish Jason Euell well, if this rumour is true, but selfishly hope it is something which can go alongside his work at Charlton rather than instead of it.
#corbyn4pm
/s
Why did this have to get needlessly ad hominem?! Bizarre