I don't understand the flag mentality on here. Why can't people read things that they disagree with or find offensive and just post a counterpoint/shrug their shoulders/kick a small animal? It all feels very petty.
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have been discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusal males can also be discriminated against
In fairness I can see that a Chinese waiter in a Chinese restaurant could be a requirement of the job. Which would be exempt from any Laws about who you employ.
The waitress one more problematical. Unless it was the restaurant in the Playboy Club. ;-)
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have beem discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusl males can also be discriminated against
There you go, discrimination goes on everywhere. Sometimes people will highlight the issue more with certain races etc.
Problem is even saying the fact i am your typical white bloke doesn't mean i cant have an opinion. I have friends of all walks of lifes, a sister who is chinese yet i cannot have an input?
Has anyone actually said you “can’t have an input”?
Great idea. Having more black coaches/managers at every level of the game has to be a good thing.
Why does it make any difference these days? People are over the top, the colour of your skin is irrelevant, same goes for gender/ what sexuality you are.
laughable people are even thinking of Sol Campbell when he hasn't done anything, needs to find a non league side and work up the leagues imo.
It SHOULDN'T make any difference, @johnnybev1987 , but if you ask anyone who is not a white heterosexual male for their life experience I bet a very large percentage will be able to give you chapter and verse of discrimination they have personally experienced.
While discrimination and bias still exist, there will remain an argument for all black / all female / etc. shortlists, especially in high profile jobs where the successful candidate will also act as a role model for their group of people. Of course this aim will fall at the first hurdle if they are not competent (KM for example), but surely we are not suggesting that all possible black candidates for an England coaching job would be in that category?
White Hetrosexual Males can also be discriminated against, I have been twice when going for jobs.
When I was 19/20 I went for 2 jobs as a waiter.
The first I was rejected as they only wanted a female.
The 2nd was a chinesse restaurant and I was rejected because I was English and not Chinesse.
Now I am not saying its terrible and I know others have been discriminated far worse. But I am just saying white hetrosexusal males can also be discriminated against
In fairness I can see that a Chinese waiter in a Chinese restaurant could be a requirement of the job. Which would be exempt from any Laws about who you employ.
The waitress one more problematical. Unless it was the restaurant in the Playboy Club. ;-)
Seems a bit unfair, not everyone who works at McDonalds is Scottish.
An artificial leg-up is needed in order to increase the presence of BAME coaches. Currently, BAME figures feel as if that despite being at least equally as good as their white peers, the routes/systems/pathways aren't there for them to progress to coaching roles as easily as white people.
So, while I understand meritocracy, there is a likely subconscious bias/systemic bias at play, is what we're getting at.
I don't understand the flag mentality on here. Why can't people read things that they disagree with or find offensive and just post a counterpoint/shrug their shoulders/kick a small animal? It all feels very petty.
Flagging is to bring something to the attention of moderators that falls foul of the site's rules/is abusive/reveals personal information, or similar.
I always try to ensure I flag for these things only and not just for stuff I disagree with and I would hope everyone else does the same.
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
BAME? Never use an acronym without using the full name of the organisation etc first. For example if you were talking about motor car breakdown services you would say the Automobile Association (AA) and then you could continue to use AA in the rest of your piece. What does BAME stand for please?
I don't understand the flag mentality on here. Why can't people read things that they disagree with or find offensive and just post a counterpoint/shrug their shoulders/kick a small animal? It all feels very petty.
I flagged you for that... then decided i was being silly and unflagged you. I wouldnt want the moderators wasting their time having to go through a load of old jokey flags!
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
I, and many others, have addressed this above.
tbh i don't scan every thread for every comment each poster has made was just giving my tuppence worth so need for the condescending tone
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
BAME? Never use an acronym without using the full name of the organisation etc first. For example if you were talking about motor car breakdown services you would say the Automobile Association (AA) and then you could continue to use AA in the rest of your piece. What does BAME stand for please?
Sorry. Didn't realise my writing on an Internet forum had to confirm to the BBC Style Guide.
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
I, and many others, have addressed this above.
tbh i don't scan every thread for every comment each poster has made was just giving my tuppence worth so need for the condescending tone
I didn't mean to be condescending - more just to point out that it's been addressed, and if you're giving your tuppence worth without reading what's been said, then it's worth pointing out something that's been said in response to a point you've repeated.
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
BAME? Never use an acronym without using the full name of the organisation etc first. For example if you were talking about motor car breakdown services you would say the Automobile Association (AA) and then you could continue to use AA in the rest of your piece. What does BAME stand for please?
Lets not tell him about CARD, ROT, CAFC etc please chaps.
Because sometimes, just being a good coach isn't good enough if you don't fit in to the decision makers subconscious bias.
The FA has recognised that there is a problem with a lack of representation from BAME backgrounds within the current England set-up. It's not patronising or creating barriers, it's creating a more diverse environment, which has been proven to yield better results in working environments.
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
BAME? Never use an acronym without using the full name of the organisation etc first. For example if you were talking about motor car breakdown services you would say the Automobile Association (AA) and then you could continue to use AA in the rest of your piece. What does BAME stand for please?
Sorry. Didn't realise my writing on an Internet forum had to confirm to the BBC Style Guide.
Let me quickly Google that for you.
*googles, which takes all of 1 second*
Black, Asian, and minority ethnic.
BBC style guide? No it’s a basic rule of English language. See, you’ve learnt something new today. You had to google it to find what it stood for? You shouldn’t use acronyms that you don’t know the meaning of either.
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
I, and many others, have addressed this above.
tbh i don't scan every thread for every comment each poster has made was just giving my tuppence worth so need for the condescending tone
I didn't mean to be condescending - more just to point out that it's been addressed, and if you're giving your tuppence worth without reading what's been said, then it's worth pointing out something that's been said in response to a point you've repeated.
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
I, and many others, have addressed this above.
tbh i don't scan every thread for every comment each poster has made was just giving my tuppence worth so need for the condescending tone
I didn't mean to be condescending - more just to point out that it's been addressed, and if you're giving your tuppence worth without reading what's been said, then it's worth pointing out something that's been said in response to a point you've repeated.
thanks for pointing it out to me although not really necessary.
on the points about grammar yeah a few bell ends on here feel it necessary to point out when people haven't used there correctly.
might just be me but why would someone want to be employed at the ethnic minority candidate - how about just for being a good coach - instead of building bridges we are building barriers, having to label everything.
I, and many others, have addressed this above.
tbh i don't scan every thread for every comment each poster has made was just giving my tuppence worth so need for the condescending tone
I didn't mean to be condescending - more just to point out that it's been addressed, and if you're giving your tuppence worth without reading what's been said, then it's worth pointing out something that's been said in response to a point you've repeated.
I see Greenie dished out a flag above... and i doubt it has anything to do the with topic and the subsequent argument.
CL resident troll, best to ignore.
So still following me around on here with your little digs. I guess you are going to be a cunt all your sad life.
i love you.
Ahh the online melt. Metaphorically puts his hands up for a row, the other person stands up for themselves, melt shits himself and tries to respond with humour. Tell you what Kuntaddick, lets make a deal, you ignore me and Ill ignore you to get along with your sad internet life which no doubt fluctuates between visits to pornhub and CL. I think thats best. I have no doubt that the decent CL posters are as bored with it as I am.
I dunno mate, both cracking sites I'll probably never get bored of :-)
Why can't we just select the best available coaches? It really shouldnt matter where their families are from.
This.
This kind of 'ethnic minority only' rule is exactly how under qualified, insufferable wankers like Sol Campbell will get a job.
Because we've had the equivalent of an 'ethnic majority' rule for about a hundred years, ignoring qualified people from other backgrounds. The idea that "It really shouldnt matter where their families are from" is precisely why they are trying to ensure some diversity. It is not happening naturally.
Ah man, the meritocracy; box-ticking; "do it if they're good enough" arguments coming back out again. I've tried to articulate time and again as to why sometimes diversity needs to be artificially encouraged. I'll list a few thoughts below:
- Various BAME footballing figures have said they've experienced a form of discrimination in football when it comes to coaching roles. It's imperative that we listen to their experiences, otherwise it's eminently possible that their voices are marginalised even further than we've seen historically.
- As has been mentioned, why are there so few black coaches relative to black footballers? We're now I'd say at least 15-20 years on from when a lot of coaches/managers would have been playing, and yet it's still overwhelmingly white former players who are now in coaching roles. We have to examine the reasons for this (one of which is potentially discrimination as various BAME figures have alluded to).
- I don't think there's intentional racism on an institutional level. I do think, however, that structures in football are still predominantly "white". (Even if you think about, say, the community courses that Charlton run, there certainly weren't many black kids on those courses when I was young [early 2000s] and I don't know how much that's changed now.)
- The above point, of course, can also be linked into more sociological reasons and how in particular the black British community (along with British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) is still far more likely to suffer from poverty/child poverty; unemployment; and similar. Again, there's a wide range of social issues to consider here and I appreciate this is starting to widen the scope of the discussion of positive discrimination a bit too broadly.
In summary, I think positive discrimination and actively attempting to recruit BAME coaches/staff can only be a good thing until such time as social problems facing the BAME community can be rectified from the ground up, rather than sort of artificially ensuring their presence at the top end of society. Hope that makes sense.
BAME? Never use an acronym without using the full name of the organisation etc first. For example if you were talking about motor car breakdown services you would say the Automobile Association (AA) and then you could continue to use AA in the rest of your piece. What does BAME stand for please?
Sorry. Didn't realise my writing on an Internet forum had to confirm to the BBC Style Guide.
Let me quickly Google that for you.
*googles, which takes all of 1 second*
Black, Asian, and minority ethnic.
Please can you confirm which BBC you’re referring to.
I see Greenie dished out a flag above... and i doubt it has anything to do the with topic and the subsequent argument.
CL resident troll, best to ignore.
So still following me around on here with your little digs. I guess you are going to be a cunt all your sad life.
i love you.
Ahh the online melt. Metaphorically puts his hands up for a row, the other person stands up for themselves, melt shits himself and tries to respond with humour. Tell you what Kuntaddick, lets make a deal, you ignore me and Ill ignore you to get along with your sad internet life which no doubt fluctuates between visits to pornhub and CL. I think thats best. I have no doubt that the decent CL posters are as bored with it as I am.
I dunno mate, both cracking sites I'll probably never get bored of :-)
Annoying when you get them mixed up and realise you're 2 minutes into a wanking over a Grapevine post.
I see Greenie dished out a flag above... and i doubt it has anything to do the with topic and the subsequent argument.
CL resident troll, best to ignore.
So still following me around on here with your little digs. I guess you are going to be a cunt all your sad life.
i love you.
Ahh the online melt. Metaphorically puts his hands up for a row, the other person stands up for themselves, melt shits himself and tries to respond with humour. Tell you what Kuntaddick, lets make a deal, you ignore me and Ill ignore you to get along with your sad internet life which no doubt fluctuates between visits to pornhub and CL. I think thats best. I have no doubt that the decent CL posters are as bored with it as I am.
I dunno mate, both cracking sites I'll probably never get bored of :-)
Annoying when you get them mixed up and realise you're 2 minutes into a wanking over a Grapevine post.
Or writing a passionate anti Duchatelet rant under a homemade milf video much to the bemusement of other commenters.
I see Greenie dished out a flag above... and i doubt it has anything to do the with topic and the subsequent argument.
CL resident troll, best to ignore.
So still following me around on here with your little digs. I guess you are going to be a cunt all your sad life.
i love you.
Ahh the online melt. Metaphorically puts his hands up for a row, the other person stands up for themselves, melt shits himself and tries to respond with humour. Tell you what Kuntaddick, lets make a deal, you ignore me and Ill ignore you to get along with your sad internet life which no doubt fluctuates between visits to pornhub and CL. I think thats best. I have no doubt that the decent CL posters are as bored with it as I am.
I dunno mate, both cracking sites I'll probably never get bored of :-)
Annoying when you get them mixed up and realise you're 2 minutes into a wanking over a Grapevine post.
And I only made a jokey comment about Greenie's hatred of My Bad (sorry Greenie) to lighten the bloody mood.
That went tits up.
Hey no worries @Curb_It , you knew the joke, I'm just getting a bit fed up with the other bloke digging me out time after time. Hopefully he's back under his stone.
And I only made a jokey comment about Greenie's hatred of My Bad (sorry Greenie) to lighten the bloody mood.
That went tits up.
Hey no worries @Curb_It , you knew the joke, I'm just getting a bit fed up with the other bloke digging me out time after time. Hopefully he's back under his stone.
Comments
The waitress one more problematical. Unless it was the restaurant in the Playboy Club. ;-)
An artificial leg-up is needed in order to increase the presence of BAME coaches. Currently, BAME figures feel as if that despite being at least equally as good as their white peers, the routes/systems/pathways aren't there for them to progress to coaching roles as easily as white people.
So, while I understand meritocracy, there is a likely subconscious bias/systemic bias at play, is what we're getting at.
I always try to ensure I flag for these things only and not just for stuff I disagree with and I would hope everyone else does the same.
What does BAME stand for please?
Let me quickly Google that for you.
*googles, which takes all of 1 second*
Black, Asian, and minority ethnic.
The FA has recognised that there is a problem with a lack of representation from BAME backgrounds within the current England set-up. It's not patronising or creating barriers, it's creating a more diverse environment, which has been proven to yield better results in working environments.
You had to google it to find what it stood for? You shouldn’t use acronyms that you don’t know the meaning of either.
on the points about grammar yeah a few bell ends on here feel it necessary to point out when people haven't used there correctly.
Like being a professional sportsman, being in the 0.0001% of people and getting the luck to get there sometimes. Not always down to background.
I am just being argumentative, not really making any specific point here.
That went tits up.
Hopefully he's back under his stone.