A nightmare scenario. When you consider how much difficulty they are having tracing this plane, it explains why the wreckage at sea of the Malaysian Airbus has never been found
It's unlikely that this type of aircraft would have a location device etc making it even harder to find the (hopefully) floating airframe
As a student of aeronautical and aerospace engineering. At the altitude it went missing at, presuming engine failure a prop craft of that stature even if the pilot had feathered the prop for minimal drag and a cruising airspeed at most it would only be able to glide for about 10 miles if you maximised energy by slowly trading altitude to maintain lift.
The other benefit of slowly lowering your altitude using your airspeed like this means that your airspeed also slowly lowers to the point where a ditch in the sea is definitely viable where the plane should float for a short while depending on sea conditions.
Fingers crossed if it went down then hopefully it's in the manner I just said and they will find a life raft in due course
@LTKapal ,thank you for explaining this,also,do you know how long a plane of this size,if ditched in the manner you've described would float for,if at all? Hope to God those involved are found safe and well.
A 13:15 update from Guernsey Police: "There are currently two planes, two helicopters and a lifeboat searching for the aircraft. No trace has yet been found.
"Conditions during the search last night were challenging, with wave heights of up to two metres, with heavy rain showers and poor visibility. Today the sea is much calmer, although visibility was good, it is now deteriorating.
"UK authorities have been calling airfields on the south coast to see if it landed there. So far we have no confirmation it did.
"Search continues. Decision at sunset about overnight search."
Cant imagine it staying afloat for long if waves were up to two metres
A 13:15 update from Guernsey Police: "There are currently two planes, two helicopters and a lifeboat searching for the aircraft. No trace has yet been found.
"Conditions during the search last night were challenging, with wave heights of up to two metres, with heavy rain showers and poor visibility. Today the sea is much calmer, although visibility was good, it is now deteriorating.
"UK authorities have been calling airfields on the south coast to see if it landed there. So far we have no confirmation it did.
"Search continues. Decision at sunset about overnight search."
Cant imagine it staying afloat for long if waves were up to two metres
I know its protocol to check with them but bet there would be a lot of pissed off people if a Airfield on the South Coast came back with the response of; "Oh yeah he's here having a cuppa and signing autographs"
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
That plane is certainly NOT considered a highly risky aircraft....why do you think it is?
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
I doubt that would be the case. In the eyes of the law, an aircraft is either safe or it isn't. If it was classed as a high risk aircraft then there would be uproar regarding the risk to people on the ground from it falling out of the sky.
As you say, they wouldn't insure against winter sports - the equivalent scenario is that they wouldn't insure him to take part in an airshow. Nothing risky about being a passenger (or pilot) of an airworthy aircraft going from A to B, certainly statistics would say that's much lower risk than driving to training everyday in a 6-litre sports car (which loads of Premier League players do).
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
That plane is certainly NOT considered a highly risky aircraft....why do you think it is?
Someone on another board I post to has described that plane as a death trap he wouldn't go near, tbf
I think someone said this was a single engine aircraft. My understanding is that it is not considered "best practice" to fly a single engine aircraft over the open sea.
I know its protocol to check with them but bet there would be a lot of pissed off people if a Airfield on the South Coast came back with the response of; "Oh yeah he's here having a cuppa and signing autographs"
Really.. tad inappropriate even though its obviously a joke. Fingers crossed its not looking good
I know its protocol to check with them but bet there would be a lot of pissed off people if a Airfield on the South Coast came back with the response of; "Oh yeah he's here having a cuppa and signing autographs"
Really.. tad inappropriate even though its obviously a joke. Fingers crossed its not looking good
It wasnt even meant as a joke... I know there would be relief but could also imagine a lot of pissed off people currently searching if he was alive and well yet hadnt bothered to inform anyone
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
That plane is certainly NOT considered a highly risky aircraft....why do you think it is?
Someone on another board I post to has described that plane as a death trap he wouldn't go near, tbf
I think someone said this was a single engine aircraft. My understanding is that it is not considered "best practice" to fly a single engine aircraft over the open sea.
Reports that Sala even told teammate Pallois that he didn’t think the vehicle was safe after an intial trip in it.
If that’s true it makes it even worse.
So.....he got in a plane that he thought was unsafe that was about to fly a considerable distance over open sea.......ermmmmm oh come on, I don’t think so Laddick.
Reports that Sala even told teammate Pallois that he didn’t think the vehicle was safe after an intial trip in it.
If that’s true it makes it even worse.
So.....he got in a plane that he thought was unsafe that was about to fly a considerable distance over open sea.......ermmmmm oh come on, I don’t think so Laddick.
I’m not saying I believe it. But it’s being reported
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
That plane is certainly NOT considered a highly risky aircraft....why do you think it is?
A typical travel insurance policy would not cover private small aircraft flights, only organised/chartered ones (and even then not as the pilot). I doubt a life insurance policy is any different unless specifically underwritten and paid for accordingly.
What are the relative death rates per passenger mile of commercial jet aircraft vs light aircraft? I can find data suggesting the latter has a 50x higher accident rate per mile flown (not even adjusted for relative passenger numbers).
Indeed in 2017 (albeit not 2018 sadly) there were ZERO deaths on commercial jet aircraft globally as the result of mechanical/pilot error.
Not intended to be insulting to a person's life here, but what happens in terms of the money Cardiff just spent on him, especially seeing as he hasn't kicked a ball in anger for them yet? Must be completely uncharted territory in that respect.
Fingers and toes crossed they find them alive, but you suspect it's already too late
I imagine he's insured by Cardiff. Horrible way to think but it crossed my mind as well.
Would be surprised if insurance didn’t have exclusions for the likes of flying in a highly risky two seater aeroplane (in the same way as they wouldn’t insure against injury/death from say winter sports etc.)
That plane is certainly NOT considered a highly risky aircraft....why do you think it is?
Someone on another board I post to has described that plane as a death trap he wouldn't go near, tbf
Absolute rubbish!
Leuth chatting bollocks on a thread where it isn't appropriate for him to do so? Somebody get me the smelling salts.
Piper Alpha P-46 .... lots of conflicting views on its safety record.
Of course planes that are widely flown for leisure purposes will likely have poor safety records compared to e.g. Airbus flown by Lufthansa. Its not apples and apples here though and that is because the airlines have to have in place safety protocols far in excess of both individuals and small charter companies. It isn't as simple as saying its a shit plane, for some PA is the best of the best in terms of performance in the class.
The A330 was widely thought "uncrashable" prior to Air France 2009 incident. The tie-in to my point on leisure aircraft is that Air France shows the latent risk of human error even when modern aviation tries to elimante this. At the time of the AF crash, the pilot was lifting the stick at the same time the co-pilot was trying to gain speed to pull out of the stall. All instruments were redundant as had frozen.
The risk of human error in lighter aircraft is magnified significantly.
Re P46 specifically, now there have been several instances of them coming apart in the air. Not structurally sound. Doubt it was the engine. The loss history usually involves the fuselage and/or wings breaking apart under high pressures (albeit within an expected range of likely manoeuvers).
Bless to the search and hopefully a landing was made somewhere but I reckon it came apart structually like it has done in the past.
As a student of aeronautical and aerospace engineering. At the altitude it went missing at, presuming engine failure a prop craft of that stature even if the pilot had feathered the prop for minimal drag and a cruising airspeed at most it would only be able to glide for about 10 miles if you maximised energy by slowly trading altitude to maintain lift.
The other benefit of slowly lowering your altitude using your airspeed like this means that your airspeed also slowly lowers to the point where a ditch in the sea is definitely viable where the plane should float for a short while depending on sea conditions.
Fingers crossed if it went down then hopefully it's in the manner I just said and they will find a life raft in due course
@LTKapal ,thank you for explaining this,also,do you know how long a plane of this size,if ditched in the manner you've described would float for,if at all? Hope to God those involved are found safe and well.
I can only make estimates based on the dimensions which now I am home I have been able to dig out but 15-30 minutes at best if the fuselage isn't compromised, it would also sink nose first if that is of any interest but unfortunately in an aircraft like this if an attempt is made to escape in a ditched craft, the doors are low slung compared to larger commercial planes so if the door were to be opened as logic dictates it would slowly take on water. I also had a quick look into the aircraft model itself and the plane itself has a very delicate engine, a good one which has been slowly improved since the 60's to be smooth, and efficient but if it is not maintained or the engine is put under stress it has a tendency for failure compared to some of the more robust louder and more clunky engines that exist in other prop planes still in service commercially. Not going to jump to conclusions but its quite possible this has been caused by an overlooked maintenance issue
As a student of aeronautical and aerospace engineering. At the altitude it went missing at, presuming engine failure a prop craft of that stature even if the pilot had feathered the prop for minimal drag and a cruising airspeed at most it would only be able to glide for about 10 miles if you maximised energy by slowly trading altitude to maintain lift.
The other benefit of slowly lowering your altitude using your airspeed like this means that your airspeed also slowly lowers to the point where a ditch in the sea is definitely viable where the plane should float for a short while depending on sea conditions.
Fingers crossed if it went down then hopefully it's in the manner I just said and they will find a life raft in due course
@LTKapal ,thank you for explaining this,also,do you know how long a plane of this size,if ditched in the manner you've described would float for,if at all? Hope to God those involved are found safe and well.
I can only make estimates based on the dimensions which now I am home I have been able to dig out but 15-30 minutes at best if the fuselage isn't compromised, it would also sink nose first if that is of any interest but unfortunately in an aircraft like this if an attempt is made to escape in a ditched craft, the doors are low slung compared to larger commercial planes so if the door were to be opened as logic dictates it would slowly take on water. I also had a quick look into the aircraft model itself and the plane itself has a very delicate engine, a good one which has been slowly improved since the 60's to be smooth, and efficient but if it is not maintained or the engine is put under stress it has a tendency for failure compared to some of the more robust louder and more clunky engines that exist in other prop planes still in service commercially. Not going to jump to conclusions but its quite possible this has been caused by an overlooked maintenance issue
Many thanks. Doesnt look good for those involved sadly
Comments
A 13:15 update from Guernsey Police: "There are currently two planes, two helicopters and a lifeboat searching for the aircraft. No trace has yet been found.
"Conditions during the search last night were challenging, with wave heights of up to two metres, with heavy rain showers and poor visibility. Today the sea is much calmer, although visibility was good, it is now deteriorating.
"UK authorities have been calling airfields on the south coast to see if it landed there. So far we have no confirmation it did.
"Search continues. Decision at sunset about overnight search."
Cant imagine it staying afloat for long if waves were up to two metres
Hopefully we're wrong.
As you say, they wouldn't insure against winter sports - the equivalent scenario is that they wouldn't insure him to take part in an airshow. Nothing risky about being a passenger (or pilot) of an airworthy aircraft going from A to B, certainly statistics would say that's much lower risk than driving to training everyday in a 6-litre sports car (which loads of Premier League players do).
My understanding is that it is not considered "best practice" to fly a single engine aircraft over the open sea.
If that’s true it makes it even worse.
Your understanding is completely incorrect.
So.....he got in a plane that he thought was unsafe that was about to fly a considerable distance over open sea.......ermmmmm oh come on, I don’t think so Laddick.
What are the relative death rates per passenger mile of commercial jet aircraft vs light aircraft? I can find data suggesting the latter has a 50x higher accident rate per mile flown (not even adjusted for relative passenger numbers).
Indeed in 2017 (albeit not 2018 sadly) there were ZERO deaths on commercial jet aircraft globally as the result of mechanical/pilot error.
Of course planes that are widely flown for leisure purposes will likely have poor safety records compared to e.g. Airbus flown by Lufthansa. Its not apples and apples here though and that is because the airlines have to have in place safety protocols far in excess of both individuals and small charter companies. It isn't as simple as saying its a shit plane, for some PA is the best of the best in terms of performance in the class.
The A330 was widely thought "uncrashable" prior to Air France 2009 incident. The tie-in to my point on leisure aircraft is that Air France shows the latent risk of human error even when modern aviation tries to elimante this. At the time of the AF crash, the pilot was lifting the stick at the same time the co-pilot was trying to gain speed to pull out of the stall. All instruments were redundant as had frozen.
The risk of human error in lighter aircraft is magnified significantly.
Re P46 specifically, now there have been several instances of them coming apart in the air. Not structurally sound. Doubt it was the engine. The loss history usually involves the fuselage and/or wings breaking apart under high pressures (albeit within an expected range of likely manoeuvers).
Bless to the search and hopefully a landing was made somewhere but I reckon it came apart structually like it has done in the past.
I also had a quick look into the aircraft model itself and the plane itself has a very delicate engine, a good one which has been slowly improved since the 60's to be smooth, and efficient but if it is not maintained or the engine is put under stress it has a tendency for failure compared to some of the more robust louder and more clunky engines that exist in other prop planes still in service commercially.
Not going to jump to conclusions but its quite possible this has been caused by an overlooked maintenance issue