Thanks Airman, but could he break even or indeed make a small profit without player sales? The reason I ask is that throughout his time and through all his lies and inconsistencies one thing has remained consistent, that believes he is right and his latest rant about every championship club losing £15 Mill fits that pattern. A scary thought would be if did manage that zero loss situation Jim White would give him his own show so he could tell everyone how he did it.
I still think he will struggle to avoid the operating loss altogether but he may get it down to a couple of million or less, which he’ll offset with transfer income (including Lookman sell-on).
Bear in mind that contributions to loan players’ wages will be in the operating loss but incoming transfer payments won’t be.
He starts the season with about £8m more in revenue just by going up. I don’t think there is anything particularly clever about refusing to spend it.
Thanks Airman, but could he break even or indeed make a small profit without player sales? The reason I ask is that throughout his time and through all his lies and inconsistencies one thing has remained consistent, that believes he is right and his latest rant about every championship club losing £15 Mill fits that pattern. A scary thought would be if did manage that zero loss situation Jim White would give him his own show so he could tell everyone how he did it.
Gonna start right off by saying Roland has never lost £15 million even once since his ownership began. His worst year was the year CAFC got relegated to L1, where he lost £13.5M. Even that loss is run of the mill in The Championship nowadays and not the catastrophe he claimed. All the rest of his ownership has achieved substantially below average losses for lower league clubs, mostly because of a very successful record of selling players generated by our Academy. A record that could have been a lot better if he waited an extra year to sell the players or if he demanded 20% sell-on fees with every sale.
Here is his real losses each season since taking over...
2013-14: -5.78M
2014-15: -3.87M
2015-16: -13.5M
2016-17: +1.17M
2017-18: -10.10M
2018-19: -5.0M (estimate)
2019-20: -1.0M (estimate)
AVERAGE: 7 years: -5.44M
Roland has no right to complain about losses. They routinely come with the territory of owning any club below the PL in England. If anything, CAFC looks financially secure compared to many clubs in The Championship who are now blowing past FFP limits. Add in the fact we are in London, Charlton looks like one of the most promising investments as long as a new bidder understands the nature of football, financially. Thus, if we are having a problem being sold, it is down to Roland, not the fans or club or finances.
Thanks Airman, but could he break even or indeed make a small profit without player sales? The reason I ask is that throughout his time and through all his lies and inconsistencies one thing has remained consistent, that believes he is right and his latest rant about every championship club losing £15 Mill fits that pattern. A scary thought would be if did manage that zero loss situation Jim White would give him his own show so he could tell everyone how he did it.
Gonna start right off by saying Roland has never lost £15 million even once since his ownership began. His worst year was the year CAFC got relegated to L1, where he lost £13.5M. Even that loss is run of the mill in The Championship nowadays and not the catastrophe he claimed. All the rest of his ownership has achieved substantially below average losses for lower league clubs, mostly because of a very successful record of selling players generated by our Academy. A record that could have been a lot better if he waited an extra year to sell the players or if he demanded 20% sell-on fees with every sale.
Here is his real losses each season since taking over...
2013-14: -5.78M
2014-15: -3.87M
2015-16: -13.5M
2016-17: +1.17M
2017-18: -10.10M
2018-19: -5.0M (estimate)
2019-20: -1.0M (estimate)
AVERAGE: 7 years: -5.44M
Roland has no right to complain about losses. They routinely come with the territory of owning any club below the PL in England. If anything, CAFC looks financially secure compared to many clubs in The Championship who are now blowing past FFP limits. Add in the fact we are in London, Charlton looks like one of the most promising investments as long as a new bidder understands the nature of football, financially. Thus, if we are having a problem being sold, it is down to Roland, not the fans or club or finances.
That’s why he talks about operating losses, which might show the underlying health of the business but aren’t the cost to the owner.
He has never had an operating loss of £15M either. They range between £8-14M historically. This season is on pace for maybe -£5M. All clubs except maybe 5 globally, are selling clubs. All clubs use outgoing transfers to offset operational losses unless they are going way past FFP limits. Selling is part of the business of football. For Roland to claim “our operational losses are too big” is a smokescreen claim that ignores the realities of football. For almost all clubs, selling players IS a normal football operation. Don’t fall for his shit. He is hiding behind accountants. At least that is how I see it.
The L1 losses are the ones that stand out, with 2016/17 distorted by the Lookman sale. When you have players on Championship wages and L1 income it's not a good financial mixture
Thanks people and no I don't fall for his shit Napa and haven't done so for over three years. Saddens me that we have the best management team and possibly the best team since dropping out of the premiership but my interest never drops but my boycott remains.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
He has never had an operating loss of £15M either. They range between £8-14M historically. This season is on pace for maybe -£5M. All clubs except maybe 5 globally, are selling clubs. All clubs use outgoing transfers to offset operational losses unless they are going way past FFP limits. Selling is part of the business of football. For Roland to claim “our operational losses are too big” is a smokescreen claim that ignores the realities of football. For almost all clubs, selling players IS a normal football operation. Don’t fall for his shit. He is hiding behind accountants. At least that is how I see it.
Yes, we agree, but he is hiding behind the average operating loss of Championship clubs, not claiming Charlton have lost £15m. The average operating loss is meaningless. He might have said that to compete at the top you have to lose a lot more, but he actually said all clubs have to be willing to lose £15m, which is nonsense - even before transfers.
The L1 losses are the ones that stand out, with 2016/17 distorted by the Lookman sale. When you have players on Championship wages and L1 income it's not a good financial mixture
It’s a lot more than Lookman. It’s Pope, Gudmundsson, Cousins etc, but the operating loss in 16/17 was horrendous because of poor financial planning by him and his muppet Meire - I.e. contractual commitments to inadequate players.
It’s not just Championship players in L1 - it’s the fact he had signed so many unsuitable players in 15/16 (Ba, Bergdich, Sarr, Ceballos), had signed a mad deal with Teixeira in January 2016, still had Reza, Polish Pete and Vetokele contracted and then got it wrong again in 16/17 (Novak, Ajose).
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Big IF...very big, but if we were to remain in the top 6 for the rest of the season I'd guess we would be getting crowds of around 20,000.
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Big IF...very big, but if we were to remain in the top 6 for the rest of the season I'd guess we would be getting crowds of around 20,000.
I don’t think there is the appetite for 18k of home fans now , the odd crowd maybe but football saturation on telly won’t help
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Big IF...very big, but if we were to remain in the top 6 for the rest of the season I'd guess we would be getting crowds of around 20,000.
I doubt it. Even if there is a further boost to season tickets taking them to 11,000, say - and the club should obviously be making an offer on that today - you are still looking at 6-7,000 average home ticket sales, which off the top of my head we have never done since the 1980s in the First Division at Selhurst, when season tickets were a lot lower. Maybe even the 1970s, when the walk-ups could be huge.
To average 20,000 you'd need season tickets at 14,000-15,000 minimum, unless you were dumping thousands of comps and the match by match prices at £24/£27 minimum are not going to help. We probably would get into the 20,000s in April if competitive in the top six.
Stoke was a very good crowd and will be seen as that as the season progresses.
The crowd on saturday was nigh on 18000,we have some very attractive fixtures this year,you only need a few 22000-23000 to get the average up,It is quite possible that some clubs will get extra allocations and parts of the ground now closed may be opened up.Momentum is everything,do well at Barnsley,then 2 attractive games,Forest and Brentford,we shall see.
The crowd on saturday was nigh on 18000,we have some very attractive fixtures this year,you only need a few 22000-23000 to get the average up,It is quite possible that some clubs will get extra allocations and parts of the ground now closed may be opened up.Momentum is everything,do well at Barnsley,then 2 attractive games,Forest and Brentford,we shall see.
I'll predict now that Forest (being midweek and on TV) and Brentford (being Bank Holiday weekend) will be lower for home fans than Stoke, regardless of results. It is also unlikely that the police will sanction extra away allocations.
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Big IF...very big, but if we were to remain in the top 6 for the rest of the season I'd guess we would be getting crowds of around 20,000.
I doubt it. Even if there is a further boost to season tickets taking them to 11,000, say - and the club should obviously be making an offer on that today - you are still looking at 6-7,000 average home ticket sales, which off the top of my head we have never done since the 1980s in the First Division at Selhurst, when season tickets were a lot lower. Maybe even the 1970s, when the walk-ups could be huge.
To average 20,000 you'd need season tickets at 14,000-15,000 minimum, unless you were dumping thousands of comps and the match by match prices at £24/£27 minimum are not going to help. We probably would get into the 20,000s in April if competitive in the top six.
Stoke was a very good crowd and will be seen as that as the season progresses.
We are Charlton Athletic...don’t write us off...you’d be surprised at what this club and its fans can do and have done, particularly when we’ve got the right person as team manager
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
Makes sense but holidays would potentially explain a bigger than usual difference between official attendance and bums on seats wouldn’t they? Assuming official attendance includes all season ticket holders whether they attend or not?
To letthe good timesroll,Totally agree,nothing is beyond us,history is on our side,good managers,proper Charlton players,just watch the crowds come back.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
Makes sense but holidays would potentially explain a bigger than usual difference between official attendance and bums on seats wouldn’t they? Assuming official attendance includes all season ticket holders whether they attend or not?
If it was "bigger than usual". I don't think it was particularly remarkable, given it is always there and widens for midweek games, televised games, bad weather, etc. It's just in those circumstances it isn't offset by extra match sales.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
That money he 'pumps' in doesnt come from nowhere, it's still his money.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
That money he 'pumps' in doesnt come from nowhere, it's still his money.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
It will be borrowed money which is on lent to Charlton. His company pays the interest in its borrowing and probably compounds the interest due to it from Charlton, possibly booking a profit on the margin. I’m guessing all this of course.
If my not-informed or knowledgable guess is right, on paper he hasn’t lost anything so far and as long as there are interested parties in a business he is reported to be valuing at £70 million then surely that supports his valuation can’t be far off.
get to the PL and that £70 million asking price will look cheap and with Bowyer in charge who’s to say that this can’t/won’t happen.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
That money he 'pumps' in doesnt come from nowhere, it's still his money.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
It will be borrowed money which is on lent to Charlton. His company pays the interest in its borrowing and probably compounds the interest due to it from Charlton, possibly booking a profit on the margin. I’m guessing all this of course.
If my not-informed or knowledgable guess is right, on paper he hasn’t lost anything so far and as long as there are interested parties in a business he is reported to be valuing at £70 million then surely that supports his valuation can’t be far off.
get to the PL and that £70 million asking price will look cheap and with Bowyer in charge who’s to say that this can’t/won’t happen.
There are no interested parties at £70m, £60m or £50m. Even he knows that by now.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
As much as i respect you probably have stats and data i dont have, i dont think its a myth. I myself miss plenty of games in Aug due to hols and i know many regulars are the same. No way do random school holiday fans turning up on the day make up the deficit in my opinion.
Living in Cardiff and my son is of school age, we only do the August games and maybe one or two others during the season. So airman is spot on with this.
Todays attendance shows that people are coming back,and if the club continues on its present path,more will return RD or not.The atmosphere on saturday was superb,it can only lift the players.In recent seasons ,coming out to empty stadiums,putting up with protests,I could imagine most of them did not want to be here.Now they probably look forward to "going to work" and it shows.I can see our averages topping 20000 before long,this is no more than the management team and the players deserve.
There is no possibility whatsoever of the average topping 20,000.
Big IF...very big, but if we were to remain in the top 6 for the rest of the season I'd guess we would be getting crowds of around 20,000.
I doubt it. Even if there is a further boost to season tickets taking them to 11,000, say - and the club should obviously be making an offer on that today - you are still looking at 6-7,000 average home ticket sales, which off the top of my head we have never done since the 1980s in the First Division at Selhurst, when season tickets were a lot lower. Maybe even the 1970s, when the walk-ups could be huge.
To average 20,000 you'd need season tickets at 14,000-15,000 minimum, unless you were dumping thousands of comps and the match by match prices at £24/£27 minimum are not going to help. We probably would get into the 20,000s in April if competitive in the top six.
Stoke was a very good crowd and will be seen as that as the season progresses.
This is probably right but not necessarily. I think that the internet/social media can really help fuel enthusiasm these days and a team doing well can start attracting a lot more than they used to. Very few of us expected the play off semi to be a sell out for example.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
That money he 'pumps' in doesnt come from nowhere, it's still his money.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
Even Meire said he won't get all his money back, trouble is, the only person that has to accept that fact won't/can't.
Isn’t this a case of smoke and mirrors ? Surely Roland hasn’t lost any money ? Doesn’t he cover the operating expense by pumping in more money each year (as a loan from another group company) which then increases the value of the club, currently £70 million ?, a price that is supported by there always being interested parties ? As long as the club isn’t sold for less than the current loan figure then there probably isn’t a loss booked at the top of the tree. In fact, if the club is paying interest on the loan there is possibly a profit being generated. Any accountants out there like to totally debunk that wild theory ?
That money he 'pumps' in doesnt come from nowhere, it's still his money.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
It will be borrowed money which is on lent to Charlton. His company pays the interest in its borrowing and probably compounds the interest due to it from Charlton, possibly booking a profit on the margin. I’m guessing all this of course.
If my not-informed or knowledgable guess is right, on paper he hasn’t lost anything so far and as long as there are interested parties in a business he is reported to be valuing at £70 million then surely that supports his valuation can’t be far off.
get to the PL and that £70 million asking price will look cheap and with Bowyer in charge who’s to say that this can’t/won’t happen.
Get to the PL and I hope he gives us a Conference South budget, even if we score no PTS or goals all season, then the TV money alone will comfortably clear every penny he thinks we owe him and he can fuck off.
Comments
Bear in mind that contributions to loan players’ wages will be in the operating loss but incoming transfer payments won’t be.
He starts the season with about £8m more in revenue just by going up. I don’t think there is anything particularly clever about refusing to spend it.
It’s not just Championship players in L1 - it’s the fact he had signed so many unsuitable players in 15/16 (Ba, Bergdich, Sarr, Ceballos), had signed a mad deal with Teixeira in January 2016, still had Reza, Polish Pete and Vetokele contracted and then got it wrong again in 16/17 (Novak, Ajose).
To average 20,000 you'd need season tickets at 14,000-15,000 minimum, unless you were dumping thousands of comps and the match by match prices at £24/£27 minimum are not going to help. We probably would get into the 20,000s in April if competitive in the top six.
Stoke was a very good crowd and will be seen as that as the season progresses.
He's also never going to find s buyer to cover all the loses, it doesn't take an accountant to work that out, just 5 or so brain cells.
If my not-informed or knowledgable guess is right, on paper he hasn’t lost anything so far and as long as there are interested parties in a business he is reported to be valuing at £70 million then surely that supports his valuation can’t be far off.
get to the PL and that £70 million asking price will look cheap and with Bowyer in charge who’s to say that this can’t/won’t happen.