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Electric Cars
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Yet the EV production is not likely to be affected. What is more likely to be happening is those manufacturers who reacted too slowly to the change from ICE to battery, the Fords, VWs, BMWs etc of this world, are finding life a little difficult.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
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If you want to have more people buying electric cars, the last thing you want to do is dig up every street in the country.carly burn said:The biggest problem for Electric cars is the infrastructure. The government can band about net zero targets all they like. But unless there is a concerted effort to create an infrastructure on a national level, akin to when they built the electricity transmission network, or water supply network for example then it will continue to stall.
Just relying on a handful of private sector companies to install a few charging stations here or there is nowhere near enough. They should be digging up roads in every street in the country.1 -
Fair play to anyone who can just pay cash and be happy.Rothko said:
Thanks for your deeply considered concerns, but the answer is, absolutely finecafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.1 -
The lease on ours (MG ZS) is around 300 a month (3 year contract) which is about 20 quid a month more than the last ICE car we had (Qashqai).cafcnick1992 said:
Fair play to anyone who can just pay cash and be happy.Rothko said:
Thanks for your deeply considered concerns, but the answer is, absolutely finecafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.2 -
But EV sales are up again this year, so perhaps it's more that they shit the bed and are losing market share, despite it being a growth industry?cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.1 -
As many have pointed out, the lease, and most cars in the UK are on leases or PCP are about the same price as a dinosaur burning car.cafcnick1992 said:
Fair play to anyone who can just pay cash and be happy.Rothko said:
Thanks for your deeply considered concerns, but the answer is, absolutely finecafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.0 -
I thought the new EV cost premium differential was coming down anyway with increased mass production and advances in technology. If it isn't, rapid depreciation of new EV's makes buying pre-owned a more affordable option for those priced out of new. Good deals to be had if you look for them.Rothko said:
As many have pointed out, the lease, and most cars in the UK are on leases or PCP are about the same price as a dinosaur burning car.cafcnick1992 said:
Fair play to anyone who can just pay cash and be happy.Rothko said:
Thanks for your deeply considered concerns, but the answer is, absolutely finecafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I assumed the market was stalling partly because the last government dropped the ball and had to push back the target, sending a signal that the infrastructure wasn't going to be in place soon enough, so consumers aren't switching as quickly.
Those kicking back against the car manufacturers moving away from producing carbon emitting cars have a temporary reprieve, but the industry trend will continue, like it or not.
The day when those protesting against measures to combat climate change are grabbing the headlines, ahead of those protesting that the measures aren't going far enough and fast enough, can't come soon enough if we're to stand a chance of slowing the rate of global temperature rise.
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This is still all about infrastructure for most people. Like it or not a lot of people just aren’t prepared to be as inconvenienced as they currently would be unless they have access to easy home charging. I’ve read of some local authorities changing some street lampposts into charging points but interestingly I note that The Mayor of West Yorkshire has pointed out that the most lampposts in her region are sited at the rear of the pavement so that option for millions of households in places like Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and surrounding areas simply isn’t something that’s going to happen for years. I doubt that West Yorkshire is alone in this. Streets of terraced and semi detached houses without drives are also going to have problems. Not insurmountable but costly and won’t happen quickly. I do think EV’s are the way forward but but the transition isn’t going to be as fast as some think.1
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Since when has any government given a shit about the North?ShootersHillGuru said:This is still all about infrastructure for most people. Like it or not a lot of people just aren’t prepared to be as inconvenienced as they currently would be unless they have access to easy home charging. I’ve read of some local authorities changing some street lampposts into charging points but interestingly I note that The Mayor of West Yorkshire has pointed out that the most lampposts in her region are sited at the rear of the pavement so that option for millions of households in places like Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and surrounding areas simply isn’t something that’s going to happen for years. I doubt that West Yorkshire is alone in this. Streets of terraced and semi detached houses without drives are also going to have problems. Not insurmountable but costly and won’t happen quickly. I do think EV’s are the way forward but but the transition isn’t going to be as fast as some think.
Like I say, I get that EVs seem to be the preferred option I just don't see how it benefits me. And as fir climate change. We are a drop of piss in the ocean compared to China, Russia, India and Brazil alone all embracing coal and fossil fuels3 -
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.3 - Sponsored links:
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Once again, it is easy to trot out the fossil fuel producers line, but the reality is something different. This article gives what appears to be a more accurate description of China and GW. I say “appears” because I haven’t had time to research in sufficient detail to be sure of its accuracy.Carter said:
Since when has any government given a shit about the North?ShootersHillGuru said:This is still all about infrastructure for most people. Like it or not a lot of people just aren’t prepared to be as inconvenienced as they currently would be unless they have access to easy home charging. I’ve read of some local authorities changing some street lampposts into charging points but interestingly I note that The Mayor of West Yorkshire has pointed out that the most lampposts in her region are sited at the rear of the pavement so that option for millions of households in places like Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and surrounding areas simply isn’t something that’s going to happen for years. I doubt that West Yorkshire is alone in this. Streets of terraced and semi detached houses without drives are also going to have problems. Not insurmountable but costly and won’t happen quickly. I do think EV’s are the way forward but but the transition isn’t going to be as fast as some think.
Like I say, I get that EVs seem to be the preferred option I just don't see how it benefits me. And as for climate change. We are a drop of piss in the ocean compared to China, Russia, India and Brazil alone all embracing coal and fossil fuels0 -
It’s perhaps a good example of responsible government, rather than populist government?cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
Although if the US is going to ‘drill drill drill’ and row back climate change legislation, you have to wonder if things aren’t going to escalate.1 -
They have a choice though, and as mentioned above if the choice is lumbering yourself with 300 sheets a month for an inexpensive EV and having to use public chargers that are considerably more expensive than home charging I dont see it as a choice.follett said:
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I'm not banging the drum for ICE as much as I love them, I've been in a Tesla and they are a lot of fun even if they look horrible but let's go back round again. The future young drivers are screwed, its one thing for someone who has a mortgage and a steady income to drop money each month into a PCP agreement or a lease but a 17 year old isn't going to have that option even for a second hand EV and given how much the arse is gone from the used market of them they are still unobtainable to the average 17/18 year old0 -
PS Saw this and though of Nick :-)0 -
Well possibly but if it is the lampost positioning that you are referring to then even I doubt that is a consequence of non levelling up. It’s just a quirk of this particular county although I doubt it’s unique to West Yorkshire.Carter said:
Since when has any government given a shit about the North?ShootersHillGuru said:This is still all about infrastructure for most people. Like it or not a lot of people just aren’t prepared to be as inconvenienced as they currently would be unless they have access to easy home charging. I’ve read of some local authorities changing some street lampposts into charging points but interestingly I note that The Mayor of West Yorkshire has pointed out that the most lampposts in her region are sited at the rear of the pavement so that option for millions of households in places like Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and surrounding areas simply isn’t something that’s going to happen for years. I doubt that West Yorkshire is alone in this. Streets of terraced and semi detached houses without drives are also going to have problems. Not insurmountable but costly and won’t happen quickly. I do think EV’s are the way forward but but the transition isn’t going to be as fast as some think.
Like I say, I get that EVs seem to be the preferred option I just don't see how it benefits me. And as for climate change. We are a drop of piss in the ocean compared to China, Russia, India and Brazil alone all embracing coal and fossil fuels0 -
Pinning your case on affordability for 17/18 year olds smacks of desperation. There will still be a supply of cheap ICEs and superior EVs in 2035 ! Market forces will ensure that.Carter said:
They have a choice though, and as mentioned above if the choice is lumbering yourself with 300 sheets a month for an inexpensive EV and having to use public chargers that are considerably more expensive than home charging I dont see it as a choice.follett said:
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I'm not banging the drum for ICE as much as I love them, I've been in a Tesla and they are a lot of fun even if they look horrible but let's go back round again. The future young drivers are screwed, its one thing for someone who has a mortgage and a steady income to drop money each month into a PCP agreement or a lease but a 17 year old isn't going to have that option even for a second hand EV and given how much the arse is gone from the used market of them they are still unobtainable to the average 17/18 year old
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To repair pot holes?carly burn said:The biggest problem for Electric cars is the infrastructure. The government can band about net zero targets all they like. But unless there is a concerted effort to create an infrastructure on a national level, akin to when they built the electricity transmission network, or water supply network for example then it will continue to stall.
Just relying on a handful of private sector companies to install a few charging stations here or there is nowhere near enough. They should be digging up roads in every street in the country.
#proper Charlton0 -
The UK/EU governments probably think they have the car manufacturers over a barrel with the quotas and they will fall into line but in reality it’s created a looming unintended consequence and manufacturers will have no option other than to shut more and more production lines down. If the EU and UK economies think they are struggling atm they are in for a fucking big shock. This has got the making of a worldwide ‘winter of discontent’ written all over it. Personally, I think it’s a toss up which government cracks first, the UK one or the German one. Whichever one it is, wins the race for sustainable inward investment for the foreseeable future if the other doesn’t immediately follow suit.swordfish said:
Ask all you like. Not happening.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
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Being able to afford driving lessons and insurance is out of the question for the average 17/18 year old. I couldn't afford it 10 years ago when I was that age and now it's almost doubled. If there's no cheap second hand cars, that's an issue that will obviously need to be addressed by the government, as this switch towards cleaner cars shouldn't price working class people totally out of having a car.Carter said:
They have a choice though, and as mentioned above if the choice is lumbering yourself with 300 sheets a month for an inexpensive EV and having to use public chargers that are considerably more expensive than home charging I dont see it as a choice.follett said:
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I'm not banging the drum for ICE as much as I love them, I've been in a Tesla and they are a lot of fun even if they look horrible but let's go back round again. The future young drivers are screwed, its one thing for someone who has a mortgage and a steady income to drop money each month into a PCP agreement or a lease but a 17 year old isn't going to have that option even for a second hand EV and given how much the arse is gone from the used market of them they are still unobtainable to the average 17/18 year old1 -
Why? This is about sales of cars in a country, not where they are manufactured. I agree that the 2030 deadline is going to have to be pushed back. The car manufacturers are screwed any way I think with the Trump tariffs being introduced and sales in China declining.letthegoodtimesroll said:
The UK/EU governments probably think they have the car manufacturers over a barrel with the quotas and they will fall into line but in reality it’s created a looming unintended consequence and manufacturers will have no option other than to shut more and more production lines down. If the EU and UK economies think they are struggling atm they are in for a fucking big shock. This has got the making of a worldwide ‘winter of discontent’ written all over it. Personally, I think it’s a toss up which government cracks first, the UK one or the German one. Whichever one it is, wins the race for sustainable inward investment for the foreseeable future if the other doesn’t immediately follow suit.swordfish said:
Ask all you like. Not happening.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.0 - Sponsored links:
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It already has been, to 2035, more than a decade away. It's not going to be pushed back again.Jints said:
Why? This is about sales of cars in a country, not where they are manufactured. I agree that the 2030 deadline is going to have to be pushed back. The car manufacturers are screwed any way I think with the Trump tariffs being introduced and sales in China declining.letthegoodtimesroll said:
The UK/EU governments probably think they have the car manufacturers over a barrel with the quotas and they will fall into line but in reality it’s created a looming unintended consequence and manufacturers will have no option other than to shut more and more production lines down. If the EU and UK economies think they are struggling atm they are in for a fucking big shock. This has got the making of a worldwide ‘winter of discontent’ written all over it. Personally, I think it’s a toss up which government cracks first, the UK one or the German one. Whichever one it is, wins the race for sustainable inward investment for the foreseeable future if the other doesn’t immediately follow suit.swordfish said:
Ask all you like. Not happening.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
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I'm not pinning my case on 17 or 18 year olds, I'm over twice their age by rights they aren't my problem. I don’t have a case, what I'm doing like a handful of others are doing is pointing out an EV future is not the ideal solution its being painted to be and young drivers is a biggie. The difference with 10 year old EVs and 10 year old combustion engine cars is known knowns. I wouldn't go near a 10 year old EV and a younger driver Still won't be able to afford one and all bets are off if that 10 year old, out of warranty battery packs up. All money lost, not comparable to ICE vehiclesHex said:
Pinning your case on affordability for 17/18 year olds smacks of desperation. There will still be a supply of cheap ICEs and superior EVs in 2035 ! Market forces will ensure that.Carter said:
They have a choice though, and as mentioned above if the choice is lumbering yourself with 300 sheets a month for an inexpensive EV and having to use public chargers that are considerably more expensive than home charging I dont see it as a choice.follett said:
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I'm not banging the drum for ICE as much as I love them, I've been in a Tesla and they are a lot of fun even if they look horrible but let's go back round again. The future young drivers are screwed, its one thing for someone who has a mortgage and a steady income to drop money each month into a PCP agreement or a lease but a 17 year old isn't going to have that option even for a second hand EV and given how much the arse is gone from the used market of them they are still unobtainable to the average 17/18 year old
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The biggest problem Ford have is nothing to do with Electric Cars but more they have lost their way. The Ecoboost engines and how they have dealt with the related issues have done a lot of damage to them reputationally.0
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They don't give a monkies mate, I make you right though. In reality more people will have to sign up to finance which I dont personally think is healthy but seems to work for a hell of a lot of people so what do I know.follett said:
Being able to afford driving lessons and insurance is out of the question for the average 17/18 year old. I couldn't afford it 10 years ago when I was that age and now it's almost doubled. If there's no cheap second hand cars, that's an issue that will obviously need to be addressed by the government, as this switch towards cleaner cars shouldn't price working class people totally out of having a car.Carter said:
They have a choice though, and as mentioned above if the choice is lumbering yourself with 300 sheets a month for an inexpensive EV and having to use public chargers that are considerably more expensive than home charging I dont see it as a choice.follett said:
Less than £300 a month for the car, insurance and servicing through a work scheme, which for a lot of people is a good deal. Couple that with a free charger and it costing £3 for 200 miles of charge. There's plenty of expensive non EV cars on the road as well that people are affording.cafcnick1992 said:I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
I'm not banging the drum for ICE as much as I love them, I've been in a Tesla and they are a lot of fun even if they look horrible but let's go back round again. The future young drivers are screwed, its one thing for someone who has a mortgage and a steady income to drop money each month into a PCP agreement or a lease but a 17 year old isn't going to have that option even for a second hand EV and given how much the arse is gone from the used market of them they are still unobtainable to the average 17/18 year old
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I realise this was in jest but the reference to 2p per mile does encourage me to say again this price differential / benefit won’t survive for much longer.JamesSeed said:PS Saw this and though of Nick :-)
A levy will emerge albeit the move to EV is inevitable (and appropriate).I was a little surprised the budget didn’t say more on future plans in this space given the commentary on the need to fix the foundations etc. Maybe the next budget will say something instead.1 -
Labour has a manifesto pledge to reinstate 2030.swordfish said:
It already has been, to 2035, more than a decade away. It's not going to be pushed back again.Jints said:
Why? This is about sales of cars in a country, not where they are manufactured. I agree that the 2030 deadline is going to have to be pushed back. The car manufacturers are screwed any way I think with the Trump tariffs being introduced and sales in China declining.letthegoodtimesroll said:
The UK/EU governments probably think they have the car manufacturers over a barrel with the quotas and they will fall into line but in reality it’s created a looming unintended consequence and manufacturers will have no option other than to shut more and more production lines down. If the EU and UK economies think they are struggling atm they are in for a fucking big shock. This has got the making of a worldwide ‘winter of discontent’ written all over it. Personally, I think it’s a toss up which government cracks first, the UK one or the German one. Whichever one it is, wins the race for sustainable inward investment for the foreseeable future if the other doesn’t immediately follow suit.swordfish said:
Ask all you like. Not happening.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.0 -
So it will stay at 2035 then 😉Jints said:
Labour has a manifesto pledge to reinstate 2030.swordfish said:
It already has been, to 2035, more than a decade away. It's not going to be pushed back again.Jints said:
Why? This is about sales of cars in a country, not where they are manufactured. I agree that the 2030 deadline is going to have to be pushed back. The car manufacturers are screwed any way I think with the Trump tariffs being introduced and sales in China declining.letthegoodtimesroll said:
The UK/EU governments probably think they have the car manufacturers over a barrel with the quotas and they will fall into line but in reality it’s created a looming unintended consequence and manufacturers will have no option other than to shut more and more production lines down. If the EU and UK economies think they are struggling atm they are in for a fucking big shock. This has got the making of a worldwide ‘winter of discontent’ written all over it. Personally, I think it’s a toss up which government cracks first, the UK one or the German one. Whichever one it is, wins the race for sustainable inward investment for the foreseeable future if the other doesn’t immediately follow suit.swordfish said:
Ask all you like. Not happening.cafcnick1992 said:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.0 -
Who cares about that. Number 1 here is beating someone away at the lights on the streets of Battersea. Waaaahhhheeeyyy.valleynick66 said:
I realise this was in jest but the reference to 2p per mile does encourage me to say again this price differential / benefit won’t survive for much longer.JamesSeed said:PS Saw this and though of Nick :-)
A levy will emerge albeit the move to EV is inevitable (and appropriate).I was a little surprised the budget didn’t say more on future plans in this space given the commentary on the need to fix the foundations etc. Maybe the next budget will say something instead.
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It will say taxes on all car ownership, parking and use will rise as they’ve found another big black hole in the public finances caused by mass unemployment and higher interest rates brought about because they were left with an unknown black hole in their finances by the last government which their experienced economist Chancellor found.valleynick66 said:
I realise this was in jest but the reference to 2p per mile does encourage me to say again this price differential / benefit won’t survive for much longer.JamesSeed said:PS Saw this and though of Nick :-)
A levy will emerge albeit the move to EV is inevitable (and appropriate).I was a little surprised the budget didn’t say more on future plans in this space given the commentary on the need to fix the foundations etc. Maybe the next budget will say something instead.2 -
Would prefer the government spent my/our money on public transport and the users actually paid some of it back.carly burn said:The biggest problem for Electric cars is the infrastructure. The government can band about net zero targets all they like. But unless there is a concerted effort to create an infrastructure on a national level, akin to when they built the electricity transmission network, or water supply network for example then it will continue to stall.
Just relying on a handful of private sector companies to install a few charging stations here or there is nowhere near enough. They should be digging up roads in every street in the country.
1
