Hi @TEL, definitely wasn’t referring to you re my attitude to Serbia, I just stuck it in that reply back to you. I’ve mentioned before that one of my best buddies here is Serbian, but I didnt want anyone to think that as a result I am “soft” on them. (And btw, great detailed summary of the Oz perspective, thanks for that)
One of the most challenging things I found about Slavic people is that their sense of nationhood and patriotism is more visceral than we Brits feel it. No Brit who like me thinks Johnson is an abomination will turn round and defend him to foreigners who call him exactly that. But Slavs would , even if they are intelligent and educated and often express a sense of shame about their country when they themselves criticise something there. And they can tend to join together against “western” attitudes”. The Serbs in particular are the most pro- Russian. But then, at a personal level, its a different story. When they take you as a friend, you are a friend for life, no matter what you disagree on re the wider world. My buddy Zoran and I go back to 95, and football was the common initial glue. He came to Prague to escape Milosevic, and he has never wanted to return, but he has family there, and we have lively discussions about the world. Like I mentioned, Ím approaching our first post -Novax beer with trepidation, but, as I sometimes have to remind myself, our friendship survived the RAF bombing of Belgrade. I’d have wished we’d all taken action against Milosevic much earlier - but then Zoran and his compatriots at the time pointed out that their families were hiding in bomb shelters. We’ve all tended to forget that episode and “move on”, but we were not the ones in the bomb shelters…
I’m just trying to explain the reactions coming out of Serbia, even as I despair of them myself. And by itself, Serbia does not matter in a Covid context, but the anti-vax nonsense now crosses borders as easily as the virus itself. We have to do all we can to curb its excesses, but it has as many variants as Covid has. And one consequence is that (according to a well-informed mate just before Xmas), London only has a fully vaxxed figure of 63%, which he puts down to reluctance in the BAME community. A community which probably enjoys tennis as much as the rest of us…
I meant to mention before, that i was surprised to find out last week, that Novac and other a few others have diplomatic passports for playing tennis for Serbia.
I think it is down to individual countries who qualifies for their diplomatic passport, but it is hardly what it is a diplomatic passport is supposedly for. I know from experiences overseas that many less give them to all sorts of 'important people who are not diplomats; certainly true in Pakistan and Africa. Not sure about Serbia but you don't need to (and in fact shouldn't) use your dip passport to entrer the UK - as a diplomat you are not one in your own country and have to be declared as one in the country you are in fact based in.
and right on cue, here is a part of a text from my Serbian mate, anticipating the jolly time we’re gonna have on our first beer off the wagon in Feb🤣 oh, well, got more than 2 weeks to prepare…
“…..God knows how many beers we will have to consume. My pick would be Novak case. Your right guess will be that I may not be objective/neutral but my perception of Australia is now equal of North Korea. With only difference that Aussies have high standard of living and that they voluntarily accepted government terror. 😱”
and right on cue, here is a part of a text from my Serbian mate, anticipating the jolly time we’re gonna have on our first beer off the wagon in Feb🤣 oh, well, got more than 2 weeks to prepare…
“…..God knows how many beers we will have to consume. My pick would be Novak case. Your right guess will be that I may not be objective/neutral but my perception of Australia is now equal of North Korea. With only difference that Aussies have high standard of living and that they voluntarily accepted government terror. 😱”
and right on cue, here is a part of a text from my Serbian mate, anticipating the jolly time we’re gonna have on our first beer off the wagon in Feb🤣 oh, well, got more than 2 weeks to prepare…
“…..God knows how many beers we will have to consume. My pick would be Novak case. Your right guess will be that I may not be objective/neutral but my perception of Australia is now equal of North Korea. With only difference that Aussies have high standard of living and that they voluntarily accepted government terror. 😱”
Quite possible he'll need to be vaccinated for the US Open too.
Different states there have different rules but NBA players who play for the 2 New York based teams have to be vaccinated to play in home games there, although currently away team players do not.
and right on cue, here is a part of a text from my Serbian mate, anticipating the jolly time we’re gonna have on our first beer off the wagon in Feb🤣 oh, well, got more than 2 weeks to prepare…
“…..God knows how many beers we will have to consume. My pick would be Novak case. Your right guess will be that I may not be objective/neutral but my perception of Australia is now equal of North Korea. With only difference that Aussies have high standard of living and that they voluntarily accepted government terror. 😱”
that did make me laugh. Not just Novax's parents prone to over exaggeration then?
Hi @TEL, definitely wasn’t referring to you re my attitude to Serbia, I just stuck it in that reply back to you. I’ve mentioned before that one of my best buddies here is Serbian, but I didnt want anyone to think that as a result I am “soft” on them. (And btw, great detailed summary of the Oz perspective, thanks for that)
One of the most challenging things I found about Slavic people is that their sense of nationhood and patriotism is more visceral than we Brits feel it. No Brit who like me thinks Johnson is an abomination will turn round and defend him to foreigners who call him exactly that. But Slavs would , even if they are intelligent and educated and often express a sense of shame about their country when they themselves criticise something there. And they can tend to join together against “western” attitudes”. The Serbs in particular are the most pro- Russian. But then, at a personal level, its a different story. When they take you as a friend, you are a friend for life, no matter what you disagree on re the wider world. My buddy Zoran and I go back to 95, and football was the common initial glue. He came to Prague to escape Milosevic, and he has never wanted to return, but he has family there, and we have lively discussions about the world. Like I mentioned, Ím approaching our first post -Novax beer with trepidation, but, as I sometimes have to remind myself, our friendship survived the RAF bombing of Belgrade. I’d have wished we’d all taken action against Milosevic much earlier - but then Zoran and his compatriots at the time pointed out that their families were hiding in bomb shelters. We’ve all tended to forget that episode and “move on”, but we were not the ones in the bomb shelters…
I’m just trying to explain the reactions coming out of Serbia, even as I despair of them myself. And by itself, Serbia does not matter in a Covid context, but the anti-vax nonsense now crosses borders as easily as the virus itself. We have to do all we can to curb its excesses, but it has as many variants as Covid has. And one consequence is that (according to a well-informed mate just before Xmas), London only has a fully vaxxed figure of 63%, which he puts down to reluctance in the BAME community. A community which probably enjoys tennis as much as the rest of us…
@PragueAddick Very interesting read. Due to the oppressive heat here yesterday afternoon, I read up a bit on whats happened in Serbia over the years. Talk about a complicated mish mash of beliefs. Faction against faction, religion against religion, previous sworn enemies who slaughtered each other then forming alliances that then break up and go back to the norm (well, their norm anyway).
I knew a couple from Yugoslavia back in the 90's and as you say, nice people, but they do have this warped allegiance to their country, almost like a chip on the shoulder.
Reading the overreaction from government officials and general comments pick up on news feeds from the reaction of people in Serbia, let alone what Novak's parent said, I now find it hard to take anything they say seriously.
Can you imagine having to deal with them over a "real" diplomatic incident?
Hi @TEL, definitely wasn’t referring to you re my attitude to Serbia, I just stuck it in that reply back to you. I’ve mentioned before that one of my best buddies here is Serbian, but I didnt want anyone to think that as a result I am “soft” on them. (And btw, great detailed summary of the Oz perspective, thanks for that)
One of the most challenging things I found about Slavic people is that their sense of nationhood and patriotism is more visceral than we Brits feel it. No Brit who like me thinks Johnson is an abomination will turn round and defend him to foreigners who call him exactly that. But Slavs would , even if they are intelligent and educated and often express a sense of shame about their country when they themselves criticise something there. And they can tend to join together against “western” attitudes”. The Serbs in particular are the most pro- Russian. But then, at a personal level, its a different story. When they take you as a friend, you are a friend for life, no matter what you disagree on re the wider world. My buddy Zoran and I go back to 95, and football was the common initial glue. He came to Prague to escape Milosevic, and he has never wanted to return, but he has family there, and we have lively discussions about the world. Like I mentioned, Ím approaching our first post -Novax beer with trepidation, but, as I sometimes have to remind myself, our friendship survived the RAF bombing of Belgrade. I’d have wished we’d all taken action against Milosevic much earlier - but then Zoran and his compatriots at the time pointed out that their families were hiding in bomb shelters. We’ve all tended to forget that episode and “move on”, but we were not the ones in the bomb shelters…
I’m just trying to explain the reactions coming out of Serbia, even as I despair of them myself. And by itself, Serbia does not matter in a Covid context, but the anti-vax nonsense now crosses borders as easily as the virus itself. We have to do all we can to curb its excesses, but it has as many variants as Covid has. And one consequence is that (according to a well-informed mate just before Xmas), London only has a fully vaxxed figure of 63%, which he puts down to reluctance in the BAME community. A community which probably enjoys tennis as much as the rest of us…
@PragueAddick Very interesting read. Due to the oppressive heat here yesterday afternoon, I read up a bit on whats happened in Serbia over the years. Talk about a complicated mish mash of beliefs. Faction against faction, religion against religion, previous sworn enemies who slaughtered each other then forming alliances that then break up and go back to the norm (well, their norm anyway).
I knew a couple from Yugoslavia back in the 90's and as you say, nice people, but they do have this warped allegiance to their country, almost like a chip on the shoulder.
Reading the overreaction from government officials and general comments pick up on news feeds from the reaction of people in Serbia, let alone what Novak's parent said, I now find it hard to take anything they say seriously.
Can you imagine having to deal with them over a "real" diplomatic incident?
Patriotism is good and right. We have lost all sense of it here. We have much to relearn. Also Patriotism doesn't mean worshipping Boris Johnson, overlooking corruption or being obnoxious to those who do not share ones nationhood. Some think that these things are patriotic. They are idiotic not patriotic. Honouring ones homeland, celebrating and taking national pride, respecting the office one holds be it the reigning monarch, heads of govt and state and being the best example of ones nation oneself (home and abroad) and not "rewriting" ones history, denying ones identity, is certainly a good start.
Hi @TEL, yes, exactly, but those diplomats and politicos with experience of the Balkans have been telling us all, going back to WW1, how completely intractable the issues are there. I was just reading a book which among other things traced the Western political responses to the Milosevic wars. I was furious that we just stood by and watched, but there was this fear that once we went in, we’d never get out.
My buddy and I had a further exchange on WhatsApp, so I can see the Serbian “ skeleton argument” appearing . Would you mind helping me with some of the facts to counter it? I think its best just to keep on the facts of the case. The two things which made me pause were:
1.He was initially granted a visa. Zoran assumes that this would be granted by the Federal govt., not Victoria, so Morrison is disingenuous to blame that on Victoria. Is that right?
2. He argues that if it werent for Novax, the other tennis players who were caught, would have not been rounded up. Is that fair and correct? I only know of the Czech doubles player , do we know who the others were?
( of course even if they were “picking on Novax” with an election in mind, this does not mean they were also picking on Serbia. As opposed to Scotland, Spain, or Switzerland, if one of the other big boys had been caught doing what Novax has done. But it’s hard to imagine those guys behaving that way, and that’s the point. But not to the Serbs, it isn’t. There’s a lot of “No one likes us”, always the victim, that we can recognise from somewhere much closer to home…)
Help from others also appreciated, but best will be help with the facts. I already start from the standpoint that Novax is bang out of order and no one is above the law.
PragueAddick said: The two things which made me pause were:
1.He was initially granted a visa. Zoran assumes that this would be granted by the Federal govt., not Victoria, so Morrison is disingenuous to blame that on Victoria. Is that right?
2. He argues that if it werent for Novax, the other tennis players who were caught, would have not been rounded up. Is that fair and correct? I only know of the Czech doubles player , do we know who the others were?
@PragueAddick Anyone can apply for a visa online to travel to Australia. However gaining a visa doesn't mean that you are automatically able to gain entry into the country. You still have to go through immigration and satisfy the current requirements at any given time. They are and always have been pretty hot on this topic....even when you leave Australia. Priory to gaining residency here, I travelled to and fro very often, sometimes 4-5 times per year and Id say on at leat 50% of those trips I was hauled over by immigration.
On this occasion the entry was flagged by the form being incorrectly filled in prior to landing. Im sure you have seen Border control and if they see the form filled out incorrectly you get stopped.....every time. or if they are suspicious, you get stopped. I think the fact that he had made public statements about the vaccine would of course highlighted him as a person incoming.
The waters were muddied by the news of a medical exemption, then the recently acquired bout of Covid....none of the facts presented added up and thats why he got hauled over and rightly so......
At that point thats were this all got very messy...he should have been put on the next plane to wherever he calls home.
Was it orchestrated pre his arrival? No, I dont think so, but further down you will see some evidence that might contradict that.
Did Morrison see this as a political advantage once the story unfolded? Probably yes, I wouldnt put it past him.
So far the one authority who is undoubtedly culpable is Tennis Australia. I personally think they thought that they could fuddle this through....defending champion = a big draw.
Add this to the fact that Victoria had the second longest spell in total lockdown, meant that getting the revenue in from gate receipts and all the associated endorsements, Tourism, TV advertising etc would have played a very big part.
The Victorian government would have no say whatsoever in the granting of visas, thats a Federal government body, so I dont think they had any jurisdiction on the matter.
I think the thing that gets overlooked is that the Federal government health minister had written to Tennis Australia telling them that the medical exemption would be unlikely to pass muster....Victoria say they were never cc'd in this matter so again I think they cant be held culpable.
There are calls for Craig Tiley head of TA to stand down, other reports are that the whole board should resign.
At the end of the day I dont think anyone here is a winner, the whole thing was handled in an unprofessional manner.
Id be very surprised to see Morrison hold on to his position. At the start of the pandemic they handled things here very well, stopping the spread and supporting businesses through lockdown.
Since the easing of restrictions in November/December everything has blown up in their faces. Covid is spreading like the rest of the world saw two years ago, the health system is at breaking point, the supply chains are breaking down, testing, pcr and rat test's are now just a festering rats nest of confusion as to where why and how to take them, made even more complicated by the revolving door of rules regarding who can go where and when after a positive test.
Morrison will need a minor miracle to survive this, so I think the Novak situation was a minor distraction.
Novak has a surprise new career opportunity Ashley Giles has offered him a coaching job with the England men's cricket team Giles is impressed with how long it took the Aussies to get Novak out
@TEL belated thanks for your detailed response. I am going to share it in full with my buddy.
Meanwhile I note from the BBC report of the judges’ findings against Novax, posted by @Gribbo above, thyt, according to “sources close to his agent (aka his agent) Novax plans to sue the Oz government for millions for his “ill treatment”. Included in the “millions” are his “Winnings”. Contemplate that for a moment.
Comments
I’m just trying to explain the reactions coming out of Serbia, even as I despair of them myself. And by itself, Serbia does not matter in a Covid context, but the anti-vax nonsense now crosses borders as easily as the virus itself. We have to do all we can to curb its excesses, but it has as many variants as Covid has. And one consequence is that (according to a well-informed mate just before Xmas), London only has a fully vaxxed figure of 63%, which he puts down to reluctance in the BAME community. A community which probably enjoys tennis as much as the rest of us…
I think it is down to individual countries who qualifies for their diplomatic passport, but it is hardly what it is a diplomatic passport is supposedly for. I know from experiences overseas that many less give them to all sorts of 'important people who are not diplomats; certainly true in Pakistan and Africa. Not sure about Serbia but you don't need to (and in fact shouldn't) use your dip passport to entrer the UK - as a diplomat you are not one in your own country and have to be declared as one in the country you are in fact based in.
The Serb government should be able to get all the paperwork in order.
“…..God knows how many beers we will have to consume. My pick would be Novak case. Your right guess will be that I may not be objective/neutral but my perception of Australia is now equal of North Korea. With only difference that Aussies have high standard of living and that they voluntarily accepted government terror. 😱”
That from a Serb?
Different states there have different rules but NBA players who play for the 2 New York based teams have to be vaccinated to play in home games there, although currently away team players do not.
Very interesting read. Due to the oppressive heat here yesterday afternoon, I read up a bit on whats happened in Serbia over the years. Talk about a complicated mish mash of beliefs. Faction against faction, religion against religion, previous sworn enemies who slaughtered each other then forming alliances that then break up and go back to the norm (well, their norm anyway).
I knew a couple from Yugoslavia back in the 90's and as you say, nice people, but they do have this warped allegiance to their country, almost like a chip on the shoulder.
Reading the overreaction from government officials and general comments pick up on news feeds from the reaction of people in Serbia, let alone what Novak's parent said, I now find it hard to take anything they say seriously.
Can you imagine having to deal with them over a "real" diplomatic incident?
1.He was initially granted a visa. Zoran assumes that this would be granted by the Federal govt., not Victoria, so Morrison is disingenuous to blame that on Victoria. Is that right?
Help from others also appreciated, but best will be help with the facts. I already start from the standpoint that Novax is bang out of order and no one is above the law.
Ashley Giles has offered him a coaching job with the England men's cricket team
Giles is impressed with how long it took the Aussies to get Novak out
thats some sense of entitlement!
As you were!