Just watched that - first time I've seen dodger and heard him speak - very impressed, he'll do for me and if there has to be one person to channel things through, i'd be happy with him. Down to earth, articulate and will have appeal to the majority of football fans.
I'd much rather have CAST who will represent a larger number of Charlton fans. Although I am not a member. I don't understand why some fans are pushing Dodger forwards at every opportunity and are being so aggressive to those questioning it. I won't deny that he has done some good things and I am grateful for those, but is more likely to be a diversive figure than a uniting one.
I think that's an assumption. I think this new lot represent a very large number of Charlton fans who may or may not feel CAST represent them and may have felt unrepresented or disenfranchised up to this point.
For the record I think there is room for both. CAST as the diplomatic and committee- type body and FFF for an alternative representation who are a bit more direct in their action and communication. It doesn't have to necessarily be one body and in that case it can alienate those who do not feel represented by one or the other.
This way you can have 2 bodies representing far greater swathes of the fanbase. Both bodies could even liaise on matters and work together rather than being exclusive of each other.
Collaboration and unity across the fanbase is imperative to having a fanbase that has real power in the years ahead and rifts or opposing factions will only serve to undermine it.
Whilst no representative group or groups will ever truly represent the views of all fans (impossible when you are dealing with tens of thousands of fans) by having 2 groups with different approaches working together you will largely cover most bases and be able to create more of than unity by allowing a wider spectrum to feel represented and that they have a voice.
You criticise what you think is an assumption but then assume something about fans and who they will be represented by. CAST has a membership who pay in, it’s transparent in that respect. What appear, to me, to be random albeit passionate fans only seem to represent themselves. Possibly with the best of intent but they aren’t really accountable and are just loose cannons who might harm the interests of fans generally.
No criticism at Muttley's post meant from me. I thought by wording it "I think that's an assumption" outlines it's my opinion rather than criticism.
I've read here and elsewhere that many don't and haven't felt represented by CAST for whatever reason and this new emergence offers alternative representation that appeals to many as evidenced by feedback on here and elsewhere such as social media.
CAST's membership numbers aren't in the 10s of thousands which would indicate that they are only representing a proportion of fans. That's not a criticism of CAST who I think do great work especially given it's their own time and effort....the only reason I have never signed up is because I didn't want to use paypal but otherwise would have.
I can see that the new supporters' group makes people uncomfortable because they are not as polished and formal and have a bit of an edge by comparison but that's a reflection of our fanbase. Some appear to be uncomfortable with that perhaps but that's the reality. Our fanbase is made up of people from all walks of life with very different outlooks so it is right and natural that all voices are represented rather than just what certain people feel is representative.
Some may relate to CAST and feel they represent them and F4F don't. Others may relate to F4F and not see representation in CAST. Others including myself can feel represented by both and I think that having 2 sets of different representatives can give more coverage across the spectrum of our fanbase and working together and collaboratively can only be a good thing when the common objectives of both will be the good our club....regardless of the differing approaches to method and communication.
Excellent post I agree 100%. We need all the groups and if everyone takes that on board, we'll all get on fine.
Just watched that - first time I've seen dodger and heard him speak - very impressed, he'll do for me and if there has to be one person to channel things through, i'd be happy with him. Down to earth, articulate and will have appeal to the majority of football fans.
I'd much rather have CAST who will represent a larger number of Charlton fans. Although I am not a member. I don't understand why some fans are pushing Dodger forwards at every opportunity and are being so aggressive to those questioning it. I won't deny that he has done some good things and I am grateful for those, but is more likely to be a diversive figure than a uniting one.
I think that's an assumption. I think this new lot represent a very large number of Charlton fans who may or may not feel CAST represent them and may have felt unrepresented or disenfranchised up to this point.
For the record I think there is room for both. CAST as the diplomatic and committee- type body and FFF for an alternative representation who are a bit more direct in their action and communication. It doesn't have to necessarily be one body and in that case it can alienate those who do not feel represented by one or the other.
This way you can have 2 bodies representing far greater swathes of the fanbase. Both bodies could even liaise on matters and work together rather than being exclusive of each other.
Collaboration and unity across the fanbase is imperative to having a fanbase that has real power in the years ahead and rifts or opposing factions will only serve to undermine it.
Whilst no representative group or groups will ever truly represent the views of all fans (impossible when you are dealing with tens of thousands of fans) by having 2 groups with different approaches working together you will largely cover most bases and be able to create more of than unity by allowing a wider spectrum to feel represented and that they have a voice.
You criticise what you think is an assumption but then assume something about fans and who they will be represented by. CAST has a membership who pay in, it’s transparent in that respect. What appear, to me, to be random albeit passionate fans only seem to represent themselves. Possibly with the best of intent but they aren’t really accountable and are just loose cannons who might harm the interests of fans generally.
No criticism at Muttley's post meant from me. I thought by wording it "I think that's an assumption" outlines it's my opinion rather than criticism.
I've read here and elsewhere that many don't and haven't felt represented by CAST for whatever reason and this new emergence offers alternative representation that appeals to many as evidenced by feedback on here and elsewhere such as social media.
CAST's membership numbers aren't in the 10s of thousands which would indicate that they are only representing a proportion of fans. That's not a criticism of CAST who I think do great work especially given it's their own time and effort....the only reason I have never signed up is because I didn't want to use paypal but otherwise would have.
I can see that the new supporters' group makes people uncomfortable because they are not as polished and formal and have a bit of an edge by comparison but that's a reflection of our fanbase. Some appear to be uncomfortable with that perhaps but that's the reality. Our fanbase is made up of people from all walks of life with very different outlooks so it is right and natural that all voices are represented rather than just what certain people feel is representative.
Some may relate to CAST and feel they represent them and F4F don't. Others may relate to F4F and not see representation in CAST. Others including myself can feel represented by both and I think that having 2 sets of different representatives can give more coverage across the spectrum of our fanbase and working together and collaboratively can only be a good thing when the common objectives of both will be the good our club....regardless of the differing approaches to method and communication.
The reasons are key, but no one will talk about them.
Just watched that - first time I've seen dodger and heard him speak - very impressed, he'll do for me and if there has to be one person to channel things through, i'd be happy with him. Down to earth, articulate and will have appeal to the majority of football fans.
I'd much rather have CAST who will represent a larger number of Charlton fans. Although I am not a member. I don't understand why some fans are pushing Dodger forwards at every opportunity and are being so aggressive to those questioning it. I won't deny that he has done some good things and I am grateful for those, but is more likely to be a diversive figure than a uniting one.
I think that's an assumption. I think this new lot represent a very large number of Charlton fans who may or may not feel CAST represent them and may have felt unrepresented or disenfranchised up to this point.
For the record I think there is room for both. CAST as the diplomatic and committee- type body and FFF for an alternative representation who are a bit more direct in their action and communication. It doesn't have to necessarily be one body and in that case it can alienate those who do not feel represented by one or the other.
This way you can have 2 bodies representing far greater swathes of the fanbase. Both bodies could even liaise on matters and work together rather than being exclusive of each other.
Collaboration and unity across the fanbase is imperative to having a fanbase that has real power in the years ahead and rifts or opposing factions will only serve to undermine it.
Whilst no representative group or groups will ever truly represent the views of all fans (impossible when you are dealing with tens of thousands of fans) by having 2 groups with different approaches working together you will largely cover most bases and be able to create more of than unity by allowing a wider spectrum to feel represented and that they have a voice.
You criticise what you think is an assumption but then assume something about fans and who they will be represented by. CAST has a membership who pay in, it’s transparent in that respect. What appear, to me, to be random albeit passionate fans only seem to represent themselves. Possibly with the best of intent but they aren’t really accountable and are just loose cannons who might harm the interests of fans generally.
No criticism at Muttley's post meant from me. I thought by wording it "I think that's an assumption" outlines it's my opinion rather than criticism.
I've read here and elsewhere that many don't and haven't felt represented by CAST for whatever reason and this new emergence offers alternative representation that appeals to many as evidenced by feedback on here and elsewhere such as social media.
CAST's membership numbers aren't in the 10s of thousands which would indicate that they are only representing a proportion of fans. That's not a criticism of CAST who I think do great work especially given it's their own time and effort....the only reason I have never signed up is because I didn't want to use paypal but otherwise would have.
I can see that the new supporters' group makes people uncomfortable because they are not as polished and formal and have a bit of an edge by comparison but that's a reflection of our fanbase. Some appear to be uncomfortable with that perhaps but that's the reality. Our fanbase is made up of people from all walks of life with very different outlooks so it is right and natural that all voices are represented rather than just what certain people feel is representative.
Some may relate to CAST and feel they represent them and F4F don't. Others may relate to F4F and not see representation in CAST. Others including myself can feel represented by both and I think that having 2 sets of different representatives can give more coverage across the spectrum of our fanbase and working together and collaboratively can only be a good thing when the common objectives of both will be the good our club....regardless of the differing approaches to method and communication.
The reasons are key, but no one will talk about them.
I can see why some people may be drawn to different groups as was well outlined in the post you quoted. But if you dare to talk about these reasons that no one else will speak of, I would find it very enlightening to hear. We all after all want what is best for the club.
This is all a bit wrong for me. Look at what Dodger has done over the last few weeks in mobilising so many people for an out poring of passion as well as being a figure head for some of the direct action, to be honest he has sacrificed alot more than myself. ( In fact I have laid off of some things Charlton not to piss the missus off ffs). The man can have a beer of me whenever he wants.
However my view is that in front of the camera/ on the radio a slightly more structured and reasoned argument, such as that shown on the radio today and by @BDL on the local news previously stands us in a better position.
CAST are the recognised fans organisation, they need to re-evaluate their composition and activity to incorporate any "factions" at this time. They have grown in stature too of late and I had previously resisted joining on the grounds it seemed to be a little club of people stroking their own status, but now might be the time to morph into something special.
Trusts are recognised by the EFL and everyone in football, the structure and finances are transparent, and in our case, we have dedicated and professional elected representatives.
IMO, if you were deciding to create a fans representative group - you would come up with the Trust.
Fans for fans and other similar groups like the B20 are of their time. By that I mean that they form for a particular reason and are joined by those of a similar view. By their very nature they dissolve when that common aim is no longer relevant. They are relevant and play their part.
Going forward we need as many supporters as possible to join. If we got every fan that supports Charlton to join it would be the perfect representative group. It is like a Union, you may not agree with everything, but it is in your interest to be a member. The closer we get to that ideal 100% the better.
If we were ever to get a board representative I would fully expect that person to come from CAST.
As RCT says it's quite simple. People generally tend to befriend agree and hang out with like minded people.
Some prefer the more reserved approach, some the less polished approach.
Personally, with things as they stand, I believe we need both and we must all support each other against the common enemy and they really are the enemy.
Trusts are recognised by the EFL and everyone in football, the structure and finances are transparent, and in our case, we have dedicated and professional elected representatives.
IMO, if you were deciding to create a fans representative group - you would come up with the Trust.
Fans for fans and other similar groups like the B20 are of their time. By that I mean that they form for a particular reason and are joined by those of a similar view. By their very nature they dissolve when that common aim is no longer relevant. They are relevant and play their part.
Going forward we need as many supporters as possible to join. If we got every fan that supports Charlton to join it would be the perfect representative group. It is like a Union, you may not agree with everything, but it is in your interest to be a member. The closer we get to that ideal 100% the better.
If we were ever to get a board representative I would fully expect that person to come from CAST.
Agree with that. The hard work of setting the Trust has been done, it has the structure and all the appropriate reporting.
What has occuured when the actual protests against RD first started the Trust were slow to take the lead which meant CARD were formed and then again when questions were being raised by many about Nemer and Southall back in late February the Trust were sending out comms saying we are now have a decent board and so FFF took far more direct action.
All those who criticize the Trust need to join the Trust so it is more representative of the actual fan base. Nominations are currently open for the board, this is where those who have played such a great part recently should join the Trust Board.
Trusts are recognised by the EFL and everyone in football, the structure and finances are transparent, and in our case, we have dedicated and professional elected representatives.
IMO, if you were deciding to create a fans representative group - you would come up with the Trust.
Fans for fans and other similar groups like the B20 are of their time. By that I mean that they form for a particular reason and are joined by those of a similar view. By their very nature they dissolve when that common aim is no longer relevant. They are relevant and play their part.
Going forward we need as many supporters as possible to join. If we got every fan that supports Charlton to join it would be the perfect representative group. It is like a Union, you may not agree with everything, but it is in your interest to be a member. The closer we get to that ideal 100% the better.
If we were ever to get a board representative I would fully expect that person to come from CAST.
See RCT is right in that as they stand both represent some part of us.
I believe the trust is the only way to represent all.
What is telling is that I came out with my impression of a boys club and the need to adapt for CAST, an immediate response was from someone from within that clique, outlining no need to change and discrediting others we say it should incorporate.
Trusts are recognised by the EFL and everyone in football, the structure and finances are transparent, and in our case, we have dedicated and professional elected representatives.
IMO, if you were deciding to create a fans representative group - you would come up with the Trust.
Fans for fans and other similar groups like the B20 are of their time. By that I mean that they form for a particular reason and are joined by those of a similar view. By their very nature they dissolve when that common aim is no longer relevant. They are relevant and play their part.
Going forward we need as many supporters as possible to join. If we got every fan that supports Charlton to join it would be the perfect representative group. It is like a Union, you may not agree with everything, but it is in your interest to be a member. The closer we get to that ideal 100% the better.
If we were ever to get a board representative I would fully expect that person to come from CAST.
See RCT is right in that as they stand both represent some part of us.
I believe the trust is the only way to represent all.
What is telling is that I came out with my impression of a boys club and the need to adapt for CAST, an immediate response was from someone from within that clique, outlining no need to change and discrediting others we say it should incorporate.
Have you quoted the wrong post here? I can't see any discrediting, just recognition that the different groups have been set up for different purposes, and have different strengths.
Having been involved with the formation of fans' groups for 30 years, you get two basic types of people involved. Those who want to do the hard graft behind the scenes over many years and may or may not become prominent because of that and those who want to meet the players/directors and be seen to be significant as individuals. The latter are usually a pain in the arse.
The fact that most on here couldn't name more than a handful of the CAST board tells you which they are.
I'm entirely in favour of a more direct approach where necessary, but that isn't the same as representation and actually the vast majority of fans choose not to be represented at all.
I think the nail has been hit firmly on the head by a few here - all clubs have a diverse fanbase to a greater or lesser degree but i think Charlton has a particularly diverse one. Naturally, over the years, the 'intellectuals / political types' tend to get more involved in these sorts of things. Dodger and the Fans for Fans group are a breath of fresh air if you ask me and represent a large section of our support that probably have been 'under represented' previously in this type of arena. I agree there is room for all and some will identify more with certain groups but when things aren't going well, there's nothing to lose by letting others take the lead.
I've always thought it a shame that there couldn't be an opt-in to CAST on the season ticket renewal form. I'm sure many more would join but are not actually aware of it's existence. Maybe something to think about for the future?
Having been involved with the formation of fans' groups for 30 years, you get two basic types of people involved. Those who want to do the hard graft behind the scenes over many years and may or may not become prominent because of that and those who want to meet the players/directors and be seen to be significant as individuals. The latter are usually a pain in the arse.
The fact that most on here couldn't name more than a handful of the CAST board tells you which they are.
I'm entirely in favour of a more direct approach where necessary, but that isn't the same as representation and actually the vast majority of fans choose not to be represented at all.
So F4F recruiting North Upper and CAST West Upper.....
FIGHT....... !
Some experienced old faces in that West Stand, so don’t underestimate them... !
No, I've not been recruited!
Well I'm CAST and North Upper 😉
Some really interesting thoughts and comments on this thread.
There should be room for various fan groups within any supporter base and CAST does not crave exclusivity. Rick is right that there are times when we get the recognition from authorities, media, etc because we are democratically constituted and transparent re our finances, elections etc. And we have over 2,600 members - getting on for 10% of a full Valley - which makes us one of the biggest trusts in England. It is good for Charlton to have a strong trust and we absolutely do our best to be as representative and responsive as possible. I've never yet had a freebie from the club and don't expect to.
It works best when fan groups have a common goal and work together on that, with room for different approaches and actions. CAST were active in promoting the #CAFCQuid demo, even though it wasn't our original idea. We knew nothing of the "occupy" action led by Dodger / FansforFans in the same way that B20 carried out some more radical specific actions. All the time such stunts stay the right side of the law, there's a role for them. When they stray over that line, the risk is that they can get turned against all of us. In any case the key is for us to stay focussed on our common goal and not end up competing and divided.
So F4F recruiting North Upper and CAST West Upper.....
FIGHT....... !
Some experienced old faces in that West Stand, so don’t underestimate them... !
No, I've not been recruited!
Well I'm CAST and North Upper 😉
Some really interesting thoughts and comments on this thread.
There should be room for various fan groups within any supporter base and CAST does not crave exclusivity.
Sorry @Weegie Addick but that is not true. I was attacked on here for challenging @PragueAddick's assertions that ONLY THE TRUST should speak to the club on strategic matters leaving operation matters to the fans forum.
I know the response will be that Prague is no longer a CAST board member but at no point did, IIRC, a present board member deny this.
The recent actions organised under the Fans For Fans banner have been magnificent and I thank them for that. I think in time of crisis they have come to the fore and done exactly what has been needed.
As far as long-term representation goes though, I'd really be looking for the sort of organisation capable of communicating with this level of clarity, purpose and speed:
The recent actions organised under the Fans For Fans banner have been magnificent and I thank them for that. I think in time of crisis they have come to the fore and done exactly what has been needed.
As far as long-term representation goes though, I'd really be looking for the sort of organisation capable of communicating with this level of clarity, purpose and speed:
And there are still some evil sceptics who don't believe I composed that letter.
What I don't know about paragraph 3.2 of the Pre-action Protocol for Media and Communications Claims just isn't worth knowing....
Since February the trust has gained over 1500 new members (More than doubled their memberships) mainly due to the ongoing ownership issues plus Southall threatening to sue back in the middle of May. People will argue that if it wasn’t for these 2 events it would have stagnated but in times of wrong, it’s good to see a response.
The trust now has an opportunity to grow and maybe from those new members find some young blood with fresh ideas who can push it forward in the coming years. In the long term when everything gets back to normal, they will be the main voice in dealing with the club and representing the fans.
Nominations are being accepted for someone to stand as on the trust board (Closing date Mid October), so plenty of time to line up your plan of action if you wish to give it a go.
Card and FFF are also required and needed to do what they are currently doing. A more physical approach is what is needed in these challenging times, whilst being on the edge of what is legal/illegal.
As with the dossier’s being produced currently we need action from all angles, so the charlatans holding our club to ransom won’t know which way to turn.
Last Saturday was great that all 3 groups came together and led a successful day. More of this coming weeks will be required and we must stand together as one and not be divided by disruptive influences from in and outside the club plus the ESI cheerleaders on social media.
Comments
We need all the groups and if everyone takes that on board, we'll all get on fine.
However my view is that in front of the camera/ on the radio a slightly more structured and reasoned argument, such as that shown on the radio today and by @BDL on the local news previously stands us in a better position.
CAST are the recognised fans organisation, they need to re-evaluate their composition and activity to incorporate any "factions" at this time. They have grown in stature too of late and I had previously resisted joining on the grounds it seemed to be a little club of people stroking their own status, but now might be the time to morph into something special.
Trusts are recognised by the EFL and everyone in football, the structure and finances are transparent, and in our case, we have dedicated and professional elected representatives.
IMO, if you were deciding to create a fans representative group - you would come up with the Trust.
Fans for fans and other similar groups like the B20 are of their time. By that I mean that they form for a particular reason and are joined by those of a similar view. By their very nature they dissolve when that common aim is no longer relevant. They are relevant and play their part.
Going forward we need as many supporters as possible to join. If we got every fan that supports Charlton to join it would be the perfect representative group. It is like a Union, you may not agree with everything, but it is in your interest to be a member. The closer we get to that ideal 100% the better.
People generally tend to befriend agree and hang out with like minded people.
Some prefer the more reserved approach, some the less polished approach.
Personally, with things as they stand, I believe we need both and we must all support each other against the common enemy and they really are the enemy.
What has occuured when the actual protests against RD first started the Trust were slow to take the lead which meant CARD were formed and then again when questions were being raised by many about Nemer and Southall back in late February the Trust were sending out comms saying we are now have a decent board and so FFF took far more direct action.
All those who criticize the Trust need to join the Trust so it is more representative of the actual fan base. Nominations are currently open for the board, this is where those who have played such a great part recently should join the Trust Board.
I believe the trust is the only way to represent all.
What is telling is that I came out with my impression of a boys club and the need to adapt for CAST, an immediate response was from someone from within that clique, outlining no need to change and discrediting others we say it should incorporate.
https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/charlton-athletic-takeover-protest-esi-thomas-sandgaard-owner-600859
The fact that most on here couldn't name more than a handful of the CAST board tells you which they are.
I'm entirely in favour of a more direct approach where necessary, but that isn't the same as representation and actually the vast majority of fans choose not to be represented at all.
I think the nail has been hit firmly on the head by a few here - all clubs have a diverse fanbase to a greater or lesser degree but i think Charlton has a particularly diverse one. Naturally, over the years, the 'intellectuals / political types' tend to get more involved in these sorts of things. Dodger and the Fans for Fans group are a breath of fresh air if you ask me and represent a large section of our support that probably have been 'under represented' previously in this type of arena. I agree there is room for all and some will identify more with certain groups but when things aren't going well, there's nothing to lose by letting others take the lead.
FIGHT....... !
Some experienced old faces in that West Stand, so don’t underestimate them... !
Some really interesting thoughts and comments on this thread.
There should be room for various fan groups within any supporter base and CAST does not crave exclusivity. Rick is right that there are times when we get the recognition from authorities, media, etc because we are democratically constituted and transparent re our finances, elections etc. And we have over 2,600 members - getting on for 10% of a full Valley - which makes us one of the biggest trusts in England. It is good for Charlton to have a strong trust and we absolutely do our best to be as representative and responsive as possible. I've never yet had a freebie from the club and don't expect to.
It works best when fan groups have a common goal and work together on that, with room for different approaches and actions. CAST were active in promoting the #CAFCQuid demo, even though it wasn't our original idea. We knew nothing of the "occupy" action led by Dodger / FansforFans in the same way that B20 carried out some more radical specific actions. All the time such stunts stay the right side of the law, there's a role for them. When they stray over that line, the risk is that they can get turned against all of us. In any case the key is for us to stay focussed on our common goal and not end up competing and divided.
Interesting times in any case. Up the Addicks!
I know the response will be that Prague is no longer a CAST board member but at no point did, IIRC, a present board member deny this.
As far as long-term representation goes though, I'd really be looking for the sort of organisation capable of communicating with this level of clarity, purpose and speed:
What I don't know about paragraph 3.2 of the Pre-action Protocol for Media and Communications Claims just isn't worth knowing....
Nominations are being accepted for someone to stand as on the trust board (Closing date Mid October), so plenty of time to line up your plan of action if you wish to give it a go.
Card and FFF are also required and needed to do what they are currently doing. A more physical approach is what is needed in these challenging times, whilst being on the edge of what is legal/illegal.
As with the dossier’s being produced currently we need action from all angles, so the charlatans holding our club to ransom won’t know which way to turn.
Last Saturday was great that all 3 groups came together and led a successful day. More of this coming weeks will be required and we must stand together as one and not be divided by disruptive influences from in and outside the club plus the ESI cheerleaders on social media.