"No one is immune from racism, not least the victims of it" Obvious as it may read, my dad's story is a bit of a workshop on the subject. Borne in Algiers to what he thought was a French Family (secular non observant Jews), Thrown out of school following the implementation of the Vichy government rules at his school after a tearful teacher informed him he was Jewish. Made his way to young Israel to find a place he can belong to, only to be mocked as inferior Israeli by the majority Ashkenaz Holocaust survivors members of the Kibbutz he settled in - themselves victims of much documented racism. In his efforts to blend in, my dad felt the pressure to deny any cultural connection to his north African origins as it was too similar to the enemies surrounding the young 'Villa in the Jungle' state... he also felt a need to underplay the African part of his origin. When choosing Hebrew name for himself he ended up with the name Joske, which is an Eastern European twist on 'Joseph'. Only a few years before his death he said to mum: "enough with this joke, call me by my real name" (Paul) He carried the scars of humiliation all his life and unfortunately couldn't help but passing them on. These days I'm embarrassed to confess the sense of achievement I felt when as a teenager I was complimented on my 'European' looks... After at the age of 15 I won the Kibbutz Juniors Tennis championship my dad couldn't help himsel, and when later at home just the two of us, he said to me: "I'm so proud of you, you've beaten them at their own game" I felt it was something I didn't need to hear, especially as the 'white' boy I won against was one of my closest friends. I like to think that was on my dad's mind a couple of years later when he cried his eyes out at the funeral of that same boy following his death in a car crash.
Nothing to add but just wanted to say great post @Iceman , learned a lot (even watched the video) which makes a nice change as I normally feel dumber after spending time on Charlton Life!
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
He still thinks he's done nothing wrong and probably hasn't even read this thread but this isn't the time or place to resurrect that particular argument.
Thanks for all the interesting responses and kind words towards my post! Appreciate people sharing their own examples and issues they have faced over the years, which really shows how many people this can impact. I also appreciate people's suggestion that I post more (much more concisely than these posts I'm sure!). I will consider that, but have tried over the years to avoid that as I can imagine the addiction of starting and then being unable to stop!
Just a couple of additional things that I'd thought I'd respond to. Racism is always racism - that part will never change. However, some people have raised instances where they have displayed micro-aggressions or have themselves had directed at them.
I want to put people's minds at ease that micro-aggressions can be OK, as long as it is part of a "social contract" between the two people involved. Some of my friends will make jokes about me which would be considered a micro-aggression. That is fine in that scenario, as we have set boundaries between ourselves, know where the line is and I am fully aware of them and their intentions. You may have similar boundaries set with your friends and that is OK too.
It becomes unacceptable if you do not know the person well enough to set those boundaries or are making a general comment not involving the group it is aimed at (i.e. two white people making a comment about a race neither belong to). It is best to work on the assumption that, if you are unsure if it is unacceptable, it probably isn't worth taking the risk.
One thing I would say is that it is absolutely fine to ask what is the right thing to say. I actually think, particularly at work, I have seen a positive shift in this. Don't be afraid to ask whether you have referred to something correctly if you feel nervous on the topic and open yourself up to being corrected. This is happening more and will only ever be viewed positively.
I was really interested in @rikofold's post. The idea of "equity" is something that hasn't really reached the UK much yet as is more of a US idea, but I think it will and needs to. Equity is needed to reach equality. People are often uncomfortable that certain groups need additional support and view it is "positive discrimination". Why should a black person get more support than a white person, for example? That is a whole other area we probably don't want to get into right now, but certain people do need more help than others.
I will give one final thought on this. At my company, and in almost every company in the UK, more black people leave than the average. More black people get put onto a formal under-performance review than average. Less black people get promoted than average. For those people that get upset with perceived positive discrimination, do we just make the assumption that essentially black people (on the facts I have just shared) are less intelligent and less able than others? Or do we try to put specific measures in place (equity) to bring it level with white people (equality)?
Fascinating discussion (at times a little heated) has just taken place on TalkSport between Simon Jordan and John Amaechi.
It's main premise was about Paul Elliott (the ex player) being told that the process to vote him onto the FA board will take 9 months (despite him currently working for the FA).
Once the 'catch-up' link is available I'll put it on here.
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
I don't know who that person is D, I guess I have not been following the post concerned, but I can only assume that along with that person some of the "usual" suspects have taken Iceman at his word and not opened the thread as they are not interested in educating themselves. It begs the question, is it possible to re-educate a racist?
What a fantastic post! i joke with friends who are black + mixed race, however it really hit home the first part you put: So when you consider telling a “joke”, can you actually relate to the person you are saying it about? If the answer is “no”, even if the “joke” is well intentioned, it’s probably best to leave it.
I am sorry to admit, this has always been my default with friends. More for comedy/joking around and nothing ever harmful, but what you put really makes me think about these things. Even if private with friends we know/we think we know wont take offence, however I cannot relate so why?
Thank you for the food for thought, i also echo the previous comments you should post more, interesting read.
I've struggled with the idea of "privilege" over the years, as I think it's a strategic error to think that not being killed by the police is a privilege rather than what should be expected. But the events of this year have really made me think about it again. It's not just the US either - a few weeks before Dominic Cummings famous eye test, a black guy was tazed in front of his daughter in Manchester for breaking lockdown rules. He was trying to do the best for his daughter but clearly different rules applied.
I think a lot of people, particularly those of us who are white, will think that they haven't got many privileges in this world and that everything's against them. What I've come to understand is that the fact that there are some people of different races in better places than you are, doesn't mean the idea doesn't apply. You need to compare yourself to someone else like you - so someone black with a similar level of education and brought up in a similar place: how many times do you get stopped by the police compared to the black person; what assumptions do the people you deal with everyday make about you? Things like that.
Where things can get a little tricky is where public sector bodies have programmes specifically aimed at black and ethnic minorities. This is in theory laudable, but because there's no recognition of the class discrimination faced by people, it can look like the left-behind parts of the working classes get no help, unless they happen to be black.
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
I don't know who that person is D, I guess I have not been following the post concerned, but I can only assume that along with that person some of the "usual" suspects have taken Iceman at his word and not opened the thread as they are not interested in educating themselves. It begs the question, is it possible to re-educate a racist?
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
I don't know who that person is D, I guess I have not been following the post concerned, but I can only assume that along with that person some of the "usual" suspects have taken Iceman at his word and not opened the thread as they are not interested in educating themselves. It begs the question, is it possible to re-educate a racist?
A very thought provoking post @Iceman which you have articulated excellently. Like others I hope you post more frequently.
@Algarveaddick it is possible to read without commenting. Perhaps some don't want to potentially derail the thread and thus feel reluctant to question assertions made. Speaking as one old sparring partner to another over many years implying that other posters maybe racists, rather than inconsiderate or insensitive perhaps, is not a way to stimulate healthy debate. In my opinion of course which I assume we are still allowed?
I've struggled with the idea of "privilege" over the years, as I think it's a strategic error to think that not being killed by the police is a privilege rather than what should be expected. But the events of this year have really made me think about it again. It's not just the US either - a few weeks before Dominic Cummings famous eye test, a black guy was tazed in front of his daughter in Manchester for breaking lockdown rules. He was trying to do the best for his daughter but clearly different rules applied.
I think a lot of people, particularly those of us who are white, will think that they haven't got many privileges in this world and that everything's against them. What I've come to understand is that the fact that there are some people of different races in better places than you are, doesn't mean the idea doesn't apply. You need to compare yourself to someone else like you - so someone black with a similar level of education and brought up in a similar place: how many times do you get stopped by the police compared to the black person; what assumptions do the people you deal with everyday make about you? Things like that.
Where things can get a little tricky is where public sector bodies have programmes specifically aimed at black and ethnic minorities. This is in theory laudable, but because there's no recognition of the class discrimination faced by people, it can look like the left-behind parts of the working classes get no help, unless they happen to be black.
Good points. Interesting thoughts in the last paragraph, it is sad that these measures have to be taken at all, and I don't think it happens as much as the deliberately divisive tabloids would have us believe. But I think you are right. The irony being that many of those who feel left behind will vote for the people that thrive on keeping the working classes "in their place".
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
I don't know who that person is D, I guess I have not been following the post concerned, but I can only assume that along with that person some of the "usual" suspects have taken Iceman at his word and not opened the thread as they are not interested in educating themselves. It begs the question, is it possible to re-educate a racist?
A very thought provoking post @Iceman which you have articulated excellently. Like others I hope you post more frequently.
@Algarveaddick it is possible to read without commenting. Perhaps some don't want to potentially derail the thread and thus feel reluctant to question assertions made. Speaking as one old sparring partner to another over many years implying that other posters maybe racists, rather than inconsiderate or insensitive perhaps, is not a way to stimulate healthy debate. In my opinion of course which I assume we are still allowed?
Perhaps I see it too simply Len? To me (my opinion - if I am allowed?) you are either with Iceman, or against him. In my opinion if you are even questioning his thoughts and assertions, you have racist tendencies. Can you be "a little bit racist"? Or are you just "inconsiderate or insensitive"? I am not implying that some other posters are racist - I am stating that some other posters are racist. It would be incredible - impossible even - that on a forum as large and diverse as this one if there were not.
On a serious note, I’ve been guilty of all of the what I perceived as jokes and harmless in the past, even probably “micro aggression”, but you grow up and educate yourself, as I said to a close friend a few weeks ago when discussing BLM, “Do you believe you are policed differently on a match day just because you are a football fan?” He responded “definitely” I let him think about his answer.
Thanks @Iceman thought provoking stuff for me personally as someone involved in the kebab episode you describe.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Such a disappointment that the person who provoked this thread has made dozens of posts over the weekend yet cannot bring himself to provide one word of apology.
Tells its own story.
I don't know who that person is D, I guess I have not been following the post concerned, but I can only assume that along with that person some of the "usual" suspects have taken Iceman at his word and not opened the thread as they are not interested in educating themselves. It begs the question, is it possible to re-educate a racist?
A very thought provoking post @Iceman which you have articulated excellently. Like others I hope you post more frequently.
@Algarveaddick it is possible to read without commenting. Perhaps some don't want to potentially derail the thread and thus feel reluctant to question assertions made. Speaking as one old sparring partner to another over many years implying that other posters maybe racists, rather than inconsiderate or insensitive perhaps, is not a way to stimulate healthy debate. In my opinion of course which I assume we are still allowed?
Perhaps I see it too simply Len? To me (my opinion - if I am allowed?) you are either with Iceman, or against him. In my opinion if you are even questioning his thoughts and assertions, you have racist tendencies. Can you be "a little bit racist"? Or are you just "inconsiderate or insensitive"? I am not implying that some other posters are racist - I am stating that some other posters are racist. It would be incredible - impossible even - that on a forum as large and diverse as this one if there were not.
That’s very much a rigid black and white view to take. Playing devils advocate, It could well be that people 100% agree with Iceman’s stance and aims, are fully in his corner, but have a slight nuanced view on how we get to equality, or the impacts of that. And with it being a very complex and delicate subject where your view can easily be misinterpreted, an open forum debate with people you don’t know then for some people they may be cautious to share their thoughts and would prefer just to read and absorb others views.
On a serious note, I’ve been guilty of all of the what I perceived as jokes and harmless in the past, even probably “micro aggression”, but you grow up and educate yourself, as I said to a close friend a few weeks ago when discussing BLM, “Do you believe you are policed differently on a match day just because you are a football fan?” He responded “definitely” I let him think about his answer.
Diversity and Inclusion was my guess.
The "how football fans are treated" analogy is a very good one @DA9
Yet I've read on here people using that very argument "try being a football fan" to down play complaints from Black people about policing.
As that bloke from Tupelo once sang "Walk a mile in my shoes
What a fantastic post! i joke with friends who are black + mixed race, however it really hit home the first part you put: So when you consider telling a “joke”, can you actually relate to the person you are saying it about? If the answer is “no”, even if the “joke” is well intentioned, it’s probably best to leave it.
I am sorry to admit, this has always been my default with friends. More for comedy/joking around and nothing ever harmful, but what you put really makes me think about these things. Even if private with friends we know/we think we know wont take offence, however I cannot relate so why?
Thank you for the food for thought, i also echo the previous comments you should post more, interesting read.
So Iceman actually touches upon that in a follow-up:
"I want to put people's minds at ease that micro-aggressions can be OK, as long as it is part of a "social contract" between the two people involved. Some of my friends will make jokes about me which would be considered a micro-aggression. That is fine in that scenario, as we have set boundaries between ourselves, know where the line is and I am fully aware of them and their intentions. You may have similar boundaries set with your friends and that is OK too."
I am of a similar mindset. One thing I would say, though, is that generally it's best if you leave it to me to "break the duck" when it comes to any micro-aggressions.
I'm generally quite comfortable with some chat, but one example stands out to me where I wasn't. It was actually in a pub before a Charlton game, where a mate introduced me to his clearly drunk - but ultimately quite nice - friend, who straight off the bat goes "fuck me, Mr Miyagi!". I gave him a pass because he'd clearly massively misjudged the situation while under the influence, and then did offer apologies. But other people I know would not have taken it as well as I did. This is an incredibly complex issue and Iceman has provided a wonderful insight to which I haven't got much to add as it's so comprehensive.
@Iceman. I congratulate you on the courage you have shown to start this thread. Rascism is a huge subject and education is most certainly such an important part. I believe there will always be racist people because of our inability and lack of focus to really address the rascism issue with education. The more people who are educated in all aspects of rascism will result in less rascism. Rascism on earth will never be eradicated but education will certainly help to reduce this and that is the most powerful tool we have. It's all about getting to the hearts of people and the more hearts that are genuinely touched will result in a less rascist world.
Today is the start of what has been called black history month. The criticism is that it is everybody's history and a distinction ought not to be made for black people. I think that is right to an extent, but without the previous non ideal efforts regarding black history month, and even that can be traced back to the effort to recognise Mary Seacole, where enlightened teachers wanted to reveal previously hidden black role models, then we may well be mired in the white history only culture that many of my generation were subjected to growing up. So even if there are flaws in the concept of black history month I believe it is still an idea with a role to play in UK society.
Re' Black History Month - I follow a few Facebook groups linked to the British Army and, speaking specifically about black and Asian people in our Armed Forces, they're regularly emphasising the role they've played, both now and throughout history (and rightly so imo). I personally find it more inclusive to see this, rather than having a token month dedicated to it. Theres a good clip of Morgan Freeman talking about Black History Month on YouTube, I'm pretty much on the same page as him
Re' Black History Month - I follow a few Facebook groups linked to the British Army and, speaking specifically about black and Asian people in our Armed Forces, they're regularly emphasising the role they've played, both now and throughout history (and rightly so imo). I personally find it more inclusive to see this, rather than having a token month dedicated to it. Theres a good clip of Morgan Freeman talking about Black History Month on YouTube, I'm pretty much on the same page as him
What a fantastic post! i joke with friends who are black + mixed race, however it really hit home the first part you put: So when you consider telling a “joke”, can you actually relate to the person you are saying it about? If the answer is “no”, even if the “joke” is well intentioned, it’s probably best to leave it.
I am sorry to admit, this has always been my default with friends. More for comedy/joking around and nothing ever harmful, but what you put really makes me think about these things. Even if private with friends we know/we think we know wont take offence, however I cannot relate so why?
Thank you for the food for thought, i also echo the previous comments you should post more, interesting read.
So Iceman actually touches upon that in a follow-up:
"I want to put people's minds at ease that micro-aggressions can be OK, as long as it is part of a "social contract" between the two people involved. Some of my friends will make jokes about me which would be considered a micro-aggression. That is fine in that scenario, as we have set boundaries between ourselves, know where the line is and I am fully aware of them and their intentions. You may have similar boundaries set with your friends and that is OK too."
I am of a similar mindset. One thing I would say, though, is that generally it's best if you leave it to me to "break the duck" when it comes to any micro-aggressions.
I'm generally quite comfortable with some chat, but one example stands out to me where I wasn't. It was actually in a pub before a Charlton game, where a mate introduced me to his clearly drunk - but ultimately quite nice - friend, who straight off the bat goes "fuck me, Mr Miyagi!". I gave him a pass because he'd clearly massively misjudged the situation while under the influence, and then did offer apologies. But other people I know would not have taken it as well as I did. This is an incredibly complex issue and Iceman has provided a wonderful insight to which I haven't got much to add as it's so comprehensive.
Cheers Pads, makes perfect sense. I will have been guilty no doubt of introducing this form of bond. So a rain check really for me, ideally i will refrain totally unless instigated by the other person.
Obviously you cant really change what has happened to date, but i did have a word with someone who i am very stereotypical with, but more for laughs and jokes factor, so i understand it even more so on top of what has been posted.
TBF a bit of ignorance and just me not being as aware as i should be really, nothing sinister.
Thank you for an
excellent, and extremely thought-provoking post @Iceman. Again, this is going
to be a far-too-long post because this is an issue which is very important to
me; I do not expect that pretty much anyone will read it, but it will make me
feel better for writing it!
I am going to disagree
with some things you said, but before doing so, I do want to reemphasise that I
was very impressed by your post and I have, and will continue to think deeply
about it.
I hate doing this (and
it will become obvious why) but possibly I need to start by giving my
credentials. Nobody on here will know, but I am moderately physically
disfigured in a way that anyone would notice and would easily put my into a
protected social category, but which I am very glad to say does not stop me
from doing the things I want to do in life.
So I do get where you
are coming from, and I do appreciate your perspective.
That said, so much of
the modern approach to society honestly fills me with horror and dread for the
future. Fundamentally, I take Douglas Murray’s analogy on all these rights
claims: as a society, in the UK, we were getting to a place where we were
amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the history of the earth, and
just when that train was pulling into the station, the driver has jabbed on the
accelerator, crashing luggage and passengers out of the way. Current thinking
on the likes of white privilege and micro-aggressions, rather than a focus on
our shared humanity, is setting society back decades, and I fear it will get
worse.
Terms like ‘white privilege’
are so poorly defined that they do not take into account aspect like the fact
that South Asian, South East Asian, Jewish, and indeed Nigerian, Brits do
better in our society that white ones – and good for them! At very best it
tends to give a single-variant analysis of situations that are much more
complex, without even stopping to consider how one might measure how important
that single variant is.
It also tends to allow
people to make sweeping generalisations about white people – is it really true
that a Hasidic Jew can walk it any office and see people that ‘look like them’?
It is true that for families coming here from, say, Moldova, English is the
language spoken in their household?
In terms of
micro-aggressions, again I recognise what you are saying, and it is undeniably
true that plenty of comments one hears (along the lines of renaming the White
Cliffs of Dover) turn out to be some random comment on Twitter. But let’s not
kid ourselves that high profile ideas like defunding the police, destroying the
nuclear family, distrusting the scientific method, and reviewing the entirety
of history and literature through a perspective of race or gender are somehow
sane. Fundamentally, these rights claims won a long time ago and are now
desperately trying to stay relevant: they have no answers to problems whose
causes they cannot even define properly.
All too often theory
around micro-aggressions relies on taking a very uncharitable view of the
supposed aggressor. So, if I set my mindset that I am an underprivileged person
then I will tend to see false-positives everywhere – to pinch and corrupt your
example: I walk into a clothes shop and the assistant rushes to ask if they can
help, do I assume that they want to get someone who looks like me out of their
shop as soon as possible? Or else they do not come up to me, should I think
that they suppose that someone who looks like me will not buy anything there?
There is very little
that wider society can do here, it is up to me and my mentality. This is where
I see that we are going wrong, in atomising society, encouraging people to see
themselves as their groups first and as individuals second, we are cruising to
disaster.
Again, to pinch your
example of walking into an office – it is all about mentality. I am well into
my forties (dear Lord!) and I can literally remember meeting one person who
‘looks’ like me once in my entire life. But, on the other hand, everyone I meet
is a human being, and all of us look (and genetically are) and hell of a lot
more similar that we look different.
Again, it is about
setting our mentality to see how similar we are.
There is a huge amount
of research to suggest that this poking fun at differences is the way that societies
grow together. In my opinion, that it is always more successful way for society
to be.
In general, almost
nothing that we can do is worse for young people than to tell them that they
live in a society that is prejudiced against them and does not want them to
succeed – in doing so, this thinking is actively encouraging them to get the mosquito
bits that the video references. They will inevitably end up finding examples
everywhere, and this is a recipe for failure.
Comments
Obvious as it may read, my dad's story is a bit of a workshop on the subject.
Borne in Algiers to what he thought was a French Family (secular non observant Jews), Thrown out of school following the implementation of the Vichy government rules at his school after a tearful teacher informed him he was Jewish. Made his way to young Israel to find a place he can belong to, only to be mocked as inferior Israeli by the majority Ashkenaz Holocaust survivors members of the Kibbutz he settled in - themselves victims of much documented racism.
In his efforts to blend in, my dad felt the pressure to deny any cultural connection to his north African origins as it was too similar to the enemies surrounding the young 'Villa in the Jungle' state... he also felt a need to underplay the African part of his origin.
When choosing Hebrew name for himself he ended up with the name Joske, which is an Eastern European twist on 'Joseph'. Only a few years before his death he said to mum: "enough with this joke, call me by my real name" (Paul)
He carried the scars of humiliation all his life and unfortunately couldn't help but passing them on. These days I'm embarrassed to confess the sense of achievement I felt when as a teenager I was complimented on my 'European' looks...
After at the age of 15 I won the Kibbutz Juniors Tennis championship my dad couldn't help himsel, and when later at home just the two of us, he said to me: "I'm so proud of you, you've beaten them at their own game"
I felt it was something I didn't need to hear, especially as the 'white' boy I won against was one of my closest friends.
I like to think that was on my dad's mind a couple of years later when he cried his eyes out at the funeral of that same boy following his death in a car crash.
Great post Iceman
Those interested might want to check out episode 1 of the new Grayson Perry series which looks at what’s going on in the States.
Please post more often on any topic.
Powerful stuff from @rikofold and @LennyLowrent. Thanks for sharing. As the product of a "mixed" (sic) marriage I can empathise.
My dad often used an old anarchist phrase that now underpins my values.
"You fist's freedom ends where my nose begins"
To me that means you're free to do as you wish up to the point where your actions impact on others.
Those actions might be a word, a look, a judgement, a recruitment decision, an actual fist or a "joke" but they do matter if they impact on others.
One last word on Muhammad Ali. He certainly espoused racist and anti-Semitic views in his youth but rejected them later in life.
Tells its own story.
We move, slowly, forward.
Thanks for all the interesting responses and kind words towards my post! Appreciate people sharing their own examples and issues they have faced over the years, which really shows how many people this can impact. I also appreciate people's suggestion that I post more (much more concisely than these posts I'm sure!). I will consider that, but have tried over the years to avoid that as I can imagine the addiction of starting and then being unable to stop!
Just a couple of additional things that I'd thought I'd respond to. Racism is always racism - that part will never change. However, some people have raised instances where they have displayed micro-aggressions or have themselves had directed at them.
I want to put people's minds at ease that micro-aggressions can be OK, as long as it is part of a "social contract" between the two people involved. Some of my friends will make jokes about me which would be considered a micro-aggression. That is fine in that scenario, as we have set boundaries between ourselves, know where the line is and I am fully aware of them and their intentions. You may have similar boundaries set with your friends and that is OK too.
It becomes unacceptable if you do not know the person well enough to set those boundaries or are making a general comment not involving the group it is aimed at (i.e. two white people making a comment about a race neither belong to). It is best to work on the assumption that, if you are unsure if it is unacceptable, it probably isn't worth taking the risk.
One thing I would say is that it is absolutely fine to ask what is the right thing to say. I actually think, particularly at work, I have seen a positive shift in this. Don't be afraid to ask whether you have referred to something correctly if you feel nervous on the topic and open yourself up to being corrected. This is happening more and will only ever be viewed positively.
I was really interested in @rikofold's post. The idea of "equity" is something that hasn't really reached the UK much yet as is more of a US idea, but I think it will and needs to. Equity is needed to reach equality. People are often uncomfortable that certain groups need additional support and view it is "positive discrimination". Why should a black person get more support than a white person, for example? That is a whole other area we probably don't want to get into right now, but certain people do need more help than others.
I will give one final thought on this. At my company, and in almost every company in the UK, more black people leave than the average. More black people get put onto a formal under-performance review than average. Less black people get promoted than average. For those people that get upset with perceived positive discrimination, do we just make the assumption that essentially black people (on the facts I have just shared) are less intelligent and less able than others? Or do we try to put specific measures in place (equity) to bring it level with white people (equality)?
It's main premise was about Paul Elliott (the ex player) being told that the process to vote him onto the FA board will take 9 months (despite him currently working for the FA).
Once the 'catch-up' link is available I'll put it on here.
John Amaechi segment starts at about -22.00. Well worth a listen.
Thank you.
Great post BTW @Iceman.
So when you consider telling a “joke”, can you actually relate to the person you are saying it about? If the answer is “no”, even if the “joke” is well intentioned, it’s probably best to leave it.
I am sorry to admit, this has always been my default with friends. More for comedy/joking around and nothing ever harmful, but what you put really makes me think about these things. Even if private with friends we know/we think we know wont take offence, however I cannot relate so why?
Thank you for the food for thought, i also echo the previous comments you should post more, interesting read.
I've struggled with the idea of "privilege" over the years, as I think it's a strategic error to think that not being killed by the police is a privilege rather than what should be expected. But the events of this year have really made me think about it again. It's not just the US either - a few weeks before Dominic Cummings famous eye test, a black guy was tazed in front of his daughter in Manchester for breaking lockdown rules. He was trying to do the best for his daughter but clearly different rules applied.
I think a lot of people, particularly those of us who are white, will think that they haven't got many privileges in this world and that everything's against them. What I've come to understand is that the fact that there are some people of different races in better places than you are, doesn't mean the idea doesn't apply. You need to compare yourself to someone else like you - so someone black with a similar level of education and brought up in a similar place: how many times do you get stopped by the police compared to the black person; what assumptions do the people you deal with everyday make about you? Things like that.
Where things can get a little tricky is where public sector bodies have programmes specifically aimed at black and ethnic minorities. This is in theory laudable, but because there's no recognition of the class discrimination faced by people, it can look like the left-behind parts of the working classes get no help, unless they happen to be black.
@Algarveaddick it is possible to read without commenting. Perhaps some don't want to potentially derail the thread and thus feel reluctant to question assertions made. Speaking as one old sparring partner to another over many years implying that other posters maybe racists, rather than inconsiderate or insensitive perhaps, is not a way to stimulate healthy debate. In my opinion of course which I assume we are still allowed?
I don’t know if you saw John Amaechi speaking about white privilege but that was also very compelling.
What’s a D&I?
On a serious note, I’ve been guilty of all of the what I perceived as jokes and harmless in the past, even probably “micro aggression”, but you grow up and educate yourself, as I said to a close friend a few weeks ago when discussing BLM, “Do you believe you are policed differently on a match day just because you are a football fan?” He responded “definitely”
I let him think about his answer.
The "how football fans are treated" analogy is a very good one @DA9
Yet I've read on here people using that very argument "try being a football fan" to down play complaints from Black people about policing.
As that bloke from Tupelo once sang "Walk a mile in my shoes
I am of a similar mindset. One thing I would say, though, is that generally it's best if you leave it to me to "break the duck" when it comes to any micro-aggressions.
I'm generally quite comfortable with some chat, but one example stands out to me where I wasn't. It was actually in a pub before a Charlton game, where a mate introduced me to his clearly drunk - but ultimately quite nice - friend, who straight off the bat goes "fuck me, Mr Miyagi!". I gave him a pass because he'd clearly massively misjudged the situation while under the influence, and then did offer apologies. But other people I know would not have taken it as well as I did.
This is an incredibly complex issue and Iceman has provided a wonderful insight to which I haven't got much to add as it's so comprehensive.
The criticism is that it is everybody's history and a distinction ought not to be made for black people.
I think that is right to an extent, but without the previous non ideal efforts regarding black history month, and even that can be traced back to the effort to recognise Mary Seacole, where enlightened teachers wanted to reveal previously hidden black role models, then we may well be mired in the white history only culture that many of my generation were subjected to growing up.
So even if there are flaws in the concept of black history month I believe it is still an idea with a role to play in UK society.
Obviously you cant really change what has happened to date, but i did have a word with someone who i am very stereotypical with, but more for laughs and jokes factor, so i understand it even more so on top of what has been posted.
TBF a bit of ignorance and just me not being as aware as i should be really, nothing sinister.
Thank you for an excellent, and extremely thought-provoking post @Iceman. Again, this is going to be a far-too-long post because this is an issue which is very important to me; I do not expect that pretty much anyone will read it, but it will make me feel better for writing it!
I am going to disagree with some things you said, but before doing so, I do want to reemphasise that I was very impressed by your post and I have, and will continue to think deeply about it.
I hate doing this (and it will become obvious why) but possibly I need to start by giving my credentials. Nobody on here will know, but I am moderately physically disfigured in a way that anyone would notice and would easily put my into a protected social category, but which I am very glad to say does not stop me from doing the things I want to do in life.
So I do get where you are coming from, and I do appreciate your perspective.
That said, so much of the modern approach to society honestly fills me with horror and dread for the future. Fundamentally, I take Douglas Murray’s analogy on all these rights claims: as a society, in the UK, we were getting to a place where we were amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the history of the earth, and just when that train was pulling into the station, the driver has jabbed on the accelerator, crashing luggage and passengers out of the way. Current thinking on the likes of white privilege and micro-aggressions, rather than a focus on our shared humanity, is setting society back decades, and I fear it will get worse.
Terms like ‘white privilege’ are so poorly defined that they do not take into account aspect like the fact that South Asian, South East Asian, Jewish, and indeed Nigerian, Brits do better in our society that white ones – and good for them! At very best it tends to give a single-variant analysis of situations that are much more complex, without even stopping to consider how one might measure how important that single variant is.
It also tends to allow people to make sweeping generalisations about white people – is it really true that a Hasidic Jew can walk it any office and see people that ‘look like them’? It is true that for families coming here from, say, Moldova, English is the language spoken in their household?
In terms of micro-aggressions, again I recognise what you are saying, and it is undeniably true that plenty of comments one hears (along the lines of renaming the White Cliffs of Dover) turn out to be some random comment on Twitter. But let’s not kid ourselves that high profile ideas like defunding the police, destroying the nuclear family, distrusting the scientific method, and reviewing the entirety of history and literature through a perspective of race or gender are somehow sane. Fundamentally, these rights claims won a long time ago and are now desperately trying to stay relevant: they have no answers to problems whose causes they cannot even define properly.
All too often theory around micro-aggressions relies on taking a very uncharitable view of the supposed aggressor. So, if I set my mindset that I am an underprivileged person then I will tend to see false-positives everywhere – to pinch and corrupt your example: I walk into a clothes shop and the assistant rushes to ask if they can help, do I assume that they want to get someone who looks like me out of their shop as soon as possible? Or else they do not come up to me, should I think that they suppose that someone who looks like me will not buy anything there?
There is very little that wider society can do here, it is up to me and my mentality. This is where I see that we are going wrong, in atomising society, encouraging people to see themselves as their groups first and as individuals second, we are cruising to disaster.
Again, to pinch your example of walking into an office – it is all about mentality. I am well into my forties (dear Lord!) and I can literally remember meeting one person who ‘looks’ like me once in my entire life. But, on the other hand, everyone I meet is a human being, and all of us look (and genetically are) and hell of a lot more similar that we look different.
Again, it is about setting our mentality to see how similar we are.
There is a huge amount of research to suggest that this poking fun at differences is the way that societies grow together. In my opinion, that it is always more successful way for society to be.
In general, almost nothing that we can do is worse for young people than to tell them that they live in a society that is prejudiced against them and does not want them to succeed – in doing so, this thinking is actively encouraging them to get the mosquito bits that the video references. They will inevitably end up finding examples everywhere, and this is a recipe for failure.