Thanks @Vfrf, some interesting points made. I will respond on a couple, given they were questions directed at me.
I am interested in your statement that Asian minority groups tend to outperform white people by quite a margin in the UK, as I do not believe that at all to be the case. Just look at the Board of Directors of the FTSE100 companies and you will be able to see their representation (not saying that is the ultimate measure of success). Just wonder where your statement on this comes from? I would suggest that a lot of the success stories from Asian minority groups are within family-owned firms which they have developed themselves and earned wealth, rather than being promoted in a public or private sector setting. They have created their own success here, rather than being preferred over others in a competitive environment. That's slightly different.
I get your point on class privilege / parent privilege. However, are you suggesting that a white person and black person from exactly the same class / parental background would be afforded exactly the same opportunities in the UK? I believe the answer would be "no", which is why we can't use that as a foundation. However, I agree that social mobility across all races is vital and companies should do more to promote opportunities to all people from less advantaged backgrounds.
I think we could go around in circles on the promotion point, but this is a scenario I would pose to you. A company has a workforce that is 10% black. But each year, only 2% of the promotions awarded are to black people. Are to we always just assume that it is because the black employees are simply less capable and that the process is fair, or should there be a review and discussion around why there could possibly be those discrepancies? Almost all companies will have metrics and criteria for promotion already, but there are still huge discrepancies. To me, that means you have to try and understand why those exist and how you can support all races progressing evenly. It is pretty much UK-wide in every firm that statistics like those exist, and I will not accept that it is purely because black people are always the less capable individuals. It's not about promoting them even if they don't merit it - it's about understanding why more black people don't merit promotions than others and putting in place targeted interventions to improve their skills. Or, possibly, changing the perception that they don't merit it when in actual fact, they do.
Sure, appreciate the response
In regards to my first point, https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest - I was referring to average household income by ethnic group as lots of the discussion are around economics. It's quite a generalisation to say most of these have propsered from family-owned business', while that may be a cultural benefit, this is taking an average and I don't think more than half come from that background. In actual fact, White British sits 7/11 based on demographics. As to your second point, I would say yes, the same class/parental background are afforded the same opportunities as it's illegal not to be. If you're saying that there are personal bias' that live within individuals at high level which means they prefer to hire/give opportunities to white people, then you can give all the inclusion training in the world, you'd be hard pressed to change those individuals.
As to your last point, that is impossible to say. Without knowing the in's and out's of the situation as this will always be anecdotal. This time two years ago, I was part of a team of 8, 2 white males, 2 black males, 2 black females, 2 asian males, my employer was about as fair as a compay could be, I'd estimate that 50% of the company were/are non-white. I got a promotion when I was clearly the best candidate (most positive feedback, minimal mistakes, punctual, great partner interaction), and when I got that promotion I was told by one of my colleagues that I got the promotion because I'm a white male I'll always do well. It's a shame that somebody feels that way, but let's suggest I'm being honest with my story here, and no just proving a point, by every available metric I was the top performer so was I wrong to get that promotion? Because in your scenario I would be one of those making the promotion 'imbalanced'. I tend to not lean to heavy on the anecdotal because it's hard to justify your position, but I stand by my original point that a metric-based system is the fairest way in many industries. Very few jobs will not have some kind of KPI model, be it item sales, customer feedback, cases complete etc - there are always ways to itemise the work you do, and if you regularly ensure the top performers get those places, I don't think race should even come into the question.
@follet thanks for your response too. Indian's are the top earners with east asians coming in third. British mixed race individuals earn almost on par (on average) as white males, so it isn't as simplistic as you'd suggest. I do agree with you both to a degree, one thing I would never suggest is that individuals don't experience harassment and actual racism (abuse) which is a crime and should be called out/punished accordingly. Incidently I have called out racism twice down the Valley to stewards. However, I'm talking about economics and opportunities and I just genuinely believe there are better ways than different rules for different races, it comes back to that theme of division rather than unity. The only way other than policing thought is to bring in legislation to give those with lower average economic standing (black, pakistani, banglideshi) footholds in business, which on face value isn't necessarily a negative thing, but why are we acting like it's white people that are the issue when many minority classes are far outperforming the average white person financially?
Re the post above from @follett I have never experienced any personal antipathy, but there exists (not at all sure how widespread) a degree of unpleasant racism in China. White people can sometimes be called 'gwailo' (white ghosts) and 'da bize' (big noses), and there is distain for other racial groups based on appearance too. I found that if I engaged in China in Mandarin everything changed, and there is some truth in the desire of some elements of Chinese society, disconnected from the wider world for so long, to seek validation from westerners. My point being that I suspect all societies have racist elements. There was a programme led by Darcus Howe some years back, that featured a bit of coverage of a game between Charlton and Nottingham Forest (badly edited so NF was established as an allusion to 'national front'), anyway he engaged with some members of the Asian sub-continent community who most definitely demonstrated racist comments and views towards the West Indian community. I suppose my point is a simplistic one where I repeat again that negative procedure towards others based on their accident of birth is plain wrong, and it is wrong when coming from anybody, not only white people. I am very aware that close to home, with a Chinese wife and mixed race offspring, that casual racism abounds even now in 2020 and sadly in my experience it has come from white people 99.9% of the time. The things that need to be engaged with first is not about seeing racism at every turn, but facing up to the most obvious elements of negative racist attitudes. White youth may well be stopped and searched sometimes, but it is a fact that black youth are stopped much more, and more repeatedly. Educational achievement and opportunity is something else that needs looking at, especially as I believe it is less likely that individuals working in that sector are racist, more that the structures in that sector may well be (unintentionally?) racist. It is big issues that must be confronted, but I also agree that any experience of racism must be challenged too. What would any of us do if at football we heard a nearby spectator calling a player a 'black c**t'? The point made many posts back in the interview with Michael Holding regarding the work on carbon fibre filaments is an example where skewed and badly weighted world views exist. I am glad that the fruits of slavery in the UK in terms of statues and symbols are being taken down. I grew up in a time where, looking back, casual and overt racism was everywhere and everyday, things have improved I think, but then again I live in Lewisham not in Lewes and the problem might be worse in the shires than the cities.
The average hourly rate across ethnicity (based on latest figures) is £11.82 per hour. White people are paid slightly more than average in UK at £11.87 per hour. As you say, Indian ethnicity is the highest by some way. However, black people are significantly less (£10.80 per hour). Obviously the Pakistani / Bangladeshi numbers are shocking.
BLM isn’t obviously purely down to the wage gap, but the data you have shared and the attached is why black people want change and why employers are supporting it. They are pretty much at the bottom of pay metrics. It is why we are putting specifically measures in place for black people, rather than all of BAME. Employers should all look at their own pay gaps and support whichever metrics are at the bottom be that black, Asian or other.
I have absolutely no doubt that you deserved your promotion and congratulate you on it! I agree metrics should always be the way forward, but they can still be swayed by unconscious bias if some elements are opinion-based (rather than a simple figure, such as sales data, which doesn’t need any interpretation). That can and does sometimes lead to wrong choices being made - but of course not always.
I appreciate where you were going with this debate and it was on specific financial / work point as opposed to you not being aware of discrimination and racism in society. It’s nice to hear you have called it out in the past.
The average hourly rate across ethnicity (based on latest figures) is £11.82 per hour. White people are paid slightly more than average in UK at £11.87 per hour. As you say, Indian ethnicity is the highest by some way. However, black people are significantly less (£10.80 per hour). Obviously the Pakistani / Bangladeshi numbers are shocking.
BLM isn’t obviously purely down to the wage gap, but the data you have shared and the attached is why black people want change and why employers are supporting it. They are pretty much at the bottom of pay metrics. It is why we are putting specifically measures in place for black people, rather than all of BAME. Employers should all look at their own pay gaps and support whichever metrics are at the bottom be that black, Asian or other.
I have absolutely no doubt that you deserved your promotion and congratulate you on it! I agree metrics should always be the way forward, but they can still be swayed by unconscious bias if some elements are opinion-based (rather than a simple figure, such as sales data, which doesn’t need any interpretation). That can and does sometimes lead to wrong choices being made - but of course not always.
I appreciate where you were going with this debate and it was on specific financial / work point as opposed to you not being aware of discrimination and racism in society. It’s nice to hear you have called it out in the past.
Hi @Iceman, I'm not sure misleading is the correct word, it's a different dataset to that which you provided. Your link is at an individual level where as mine is a household level, again comes in the more relevant privilege of having dual parent households which is very common in the top demographics, as to why the household income would be higher.
I do think we agree on the social element, I think my disagreement only comes into the points raised to 'bring about balance' which I see as essentially tipping the scales. And I also don't know where the punching up stops, if there is inequality in finances, then why is that stopping at #4 in the paid-per-hour chart? Isn't it a better idea to look at the Indian, 'Asian Other' and 'Mixed' categories to see why they are performing better on average than their white counterparts? I just happen to hold the belief that we are not an inheritly racist society, or necessarily a bias one. I think there are absolutely cultural factors that impact earning groups, work habits, industry career choices(33% of all care workers in London are from a BAME background, this career choice is notoriously low paid). I think it's disingenuous to suggest that white people are to blame for inequity in society when we're not the top performing demographic yet high profile figures such as Prince Harry will come out and claim that this is a world 'created by white people, for white people' - this kind of message is doing nothing for us as a people, but it seems commonplace.
Every cliché about every race around the world is in my head at every encounter with strangers.
I feel it, I know it I admit it, and I remind it to myself. I have to. It constantly wants raise it's lazy head in categorizing people.
Why..? Perhaps because I am tainted by being on both sides of racism - growing up in a race that reffers to itself as 'chosen people', then at home being reminded that within the chosen people my mum and dad's subrace is slightly less chosen - an appendix if you like...
This is my starting point. I haven't chosen it but I choose not to stay there.
Armed with what I know, I hope to have my eyes ears and mind open.
Often in social situations I make a risky habit of asking people I meet for the first time for their opinion on a philosophical topic that bugs me (like perceived human consciosness... or playing 3 at the back or 4,4,2).
When successful, it is so rewarding...
To be speaking the universal language of doubt and be united by common human uncertainties and even silence. Then I know that I have met, and presented myself as a person. Sounds banal I know (it even embarrasses me) but works for me - it educates me. Sure at some point we'll go on to swap cultural postcards and recipes but by then we have already created a tiny family between us.
Thanks @Vfrf, some interesting points made. I will respond on a couple, given they were questions directed at me.
I am interested in your statement that Asian minority groups tend to outperform white people by quite a margin in the UK, as I do not believe that at all to be the case. Just look at the Board of Directors of the FTSE100 companies and you will be able to see their representation (not saying that is the ultimate measure of success). Just wonder where your statement on this comes from? I would suggest that a lot of the success stories from Asian minority groups are within family-owned firms which they have developed themselves and earned wealth, rather than being promoted in a public or private sector setting. They have created their own success here, rather than being preferred over others in a competitive environment. That's slightly different.
I get your point on class privilege / parent privilege. However, are you suggesting that a white person and black person from exactly the same class / parental background would be afforded exactly the same opportunities in the UK? I believe the answer would be "no", which is why we can't use that as a foundation. However, I agree that social mobility across all races is vital and companies should do more to promote opportunities to all people from less advantaged backgrounds.
I think we could go around in circles on the promotion point, but this is a scenario I would pose to you. A company has a workforce that is 10% black. But each year, only 2% of the promotions awarded are to black people. Are to we always just assume that it is because the black employees are simply less capable and that the process is fair, or should there be a review and discussion around why there could possibly be those discrepancies? Almost all companies will have metrics and criteria for promotion already, but there are still huge discrepancies. To me, that means you have to try and understand why those exist and how you can support all races progressing evenly. It is pretty much UK-wide in every firm that statistics like those exist, and I will not accept that it is purely because black people are always the less capable individuals. It's not about promoting them even if they don't merit it - it's about understanding why more black people don't merit promotions than others and putting in place targeted interventions to improve their skills. Or, possibly, changing the perception that they don't merit it when in actual fact, they do.
Sure, appreciate the response
In regards to my first point, https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest - I was referring to average household income by ethnic group as lots of the discussion are around economics. It's quite a generalisation to say most of these have propsered from family-owned business', while that may be a cultural benefit, this is taking an average and I don't think more than half come from that background. In actual fact, White British sits 7/11 based on demographics. As to your second point, I would say yes, the same class/parental background are afforded the same opportunities as it's illegal not to be. If you're saying that there are personal bias' that live within individuals at high level which means they prefer to hire/give opportunities to white people, then you can give all the inclusion training in the world, you'd be hard pressed to change those individuals.
As to your last point, that is impossible to say. Without knowing the in's and out's of the situation as this will always be anecdotal. This time two years ago, I was part of a team of 8, 2 white males, 2 black males, 2 black females, 2 asian males, my employer was about as fair as a compay could be, I'd estimate that 50% of the company were/are non-white. I got a promotion when I was clearly the best candidate (most positive feedback, minimal mistakes, punctual, great partner interaction), and when I got that promotion I was told by one of my colleagues that I got the promotion because I'm a white male I'll always do well. It's a shame that somebody feels that way, but let's suggest I'm being honest with my story here, and no just proving a point, by every available metric I was the top performer so was I wrong to get that promotion? Because in your scenario I would be one of those making the promotion 'imbalanced'. I tend to not lean to heavy on the anecdotal because it's hard to justify your position, but I stand by my original point that a metric-based system is the fairest way in many industries. Very few jobs will not have some kind of KPI model, be it item sales, customer feedback, cases complete etc - there are always ways to itemise the work you do, and if you regularly ensure the top performers get those places, I don't think race should even come into the question.
@follet thanks for your response too. Indian's are the top earners with east asians coming in third. British mixed race individuals earn almost on par (on average) as white males, so it isn't as simplistic as you'd suggest. I do agree with you both to a degree, one thing I would never suggest is that individuals don't experience harassment and actual racism (abuse) which is a crime and should be called out/punished accordingly. Incidently I have called out racism twice down the Valley to stewards. However, I'm talking about economics and opportunities and I just genuinely believe there are better ways than different rules for different races, it comes back to that theme of division rather than unity. The only way other than policing thought is to bring in legislation to give those with lower average economic standing (black, pakistani, banglideshi) footholds in business, which on face value isn't necessarily a negative thing, but why are we acting like it's white people that are the issue when many minority classes are far outperforming the average white person financially?
Based solely on following Charlton away from home, I would guess that the town of Doncaster significantly brings down the white British average income.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
I doubt that. I think the majority of people who turn up to protest when there’s a far right rally are ‘decent folks’.
And it certainly is not ‘undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority‘. I have friends on the front line covering the story in the US who confirm this.
And your last comment is odd. Of course they’d support those protecting them, rather than the fascists attacking them. Moseley’s thugs were trying to emulate what was going on in Germany, and hoped the nazi’s philosophies would spread to Britain. There were to be disappointed
There have been some very thought provoking posts on this thread - most I agree with, some I question. But posts has been overwhelmingly considered and educational.
I grew up in south London in the 60s (born in 1957) and was very fortunate to have a mother (my dad died when I was 7) who taught me very valuable lessons about respect, dignity and the inclusion of all, irrespective of race, colour, or creed. 'Everyone you meet is good unless or until they prove otherwise'. I've used that mantra with my sons and they see the world in the same light.
Am I capable of uttering comments that are inherently racist? Without doubt, a product of my environment as a boy - language rather than intent. As an example, for many years I would use the word 'coloured'. Why? because I genuinely believed that this was the correct word and that the word 'black' was racist. For years after I was more reliably informed I had to think, I had to be conscious of my language. Thankfully it is now an unconscious trait.
I am friends with a very successful British Asian businessman. We talk often of his experiences growing up in the UK - he came here as a young boy from Pakistan and is now in his 50s. He once said to me 'Bob, you are the most colour blind man I have ever met'. I corrected him on that. To understand what racism is, what white privilege is in the UK (and it exists) you have to try to understand it from a BAME point of view - a white man cannot possibly do that by being colour blind.
Gillis, fair point; I should have taken note of Hanlon's Razor when criticising wokery; the motivations of some will of course be benign, they do not realise that they are actually defending racism in the form of CRT. 'Blame everything on whitey' might seem like a simplistic solution to the world's problems, but is it going to get us anywhere positive? We have already seen a tidal wave of violence as a result; it is simple incitement to racial hatred. I believe that society must be united to to truly progress, but identity politics is in the ascendancy now and we are all to be put in boxes and prioritise what it is that separates us rather than concentrating on what unites us, which I deplore (I'm sure Grapevine put it more eloquently above).
As for why science is disliked by the woke; I think it's because the majority of advancements and discoveries that have given us the modern world were by white men. And they're bad.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Antifa I believe stands for Anti Fascist. I am anti fascist but have not given details to, paid a subscription in, or signed up to any organisation. Nor are there any leaders that I know of, and I doubt I would follow them if there were. I am antifa but not a member of anything. To me it is a stance and an approach. So to say that antifa is organised in any way excludes people like me who are not organised. It is about being Anti Fascist on a personal level.
Antifa I believe stands for Anti Fascist. I am anti fascist but have not given details to, paid a subscription in, or signed up to any organisation. Nor are there any leaders that I know of, and I doubt I would follow them if there were. I am antifa but not a member of anything. To me it is a stance and an approach. So to say that antifa is organised in any way excludes people like me who are not organised. It is about being Anti Fascist on a personal level.
I think these are two different things. I think most rational people consider themselves anti-facists, but we don't tend to dress up in all black, meet at a defined location to take picket signs out of the back of a pre-paid U-Haul and commit acts of violence, property destruction and arson on public buildings across the USA... It beggars belief, it really does.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Sorry to dash your hopes with my opinions.
I don’t deny that there are left wing extremists who are doing horrendous things, they might even claim to be acting in the name of Antifa but on whether Antifa is an organised group or a movement/idea (I was claiming the latter) I’ll accept the Director of the FBI’s assessment from the other day over anything Trump has to say:
I don’t really want to get into comparing the crimes of the left to the right, that’s whatabouttery at its finest and just what the right want, but it’s not even close:
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Antifa is a European contraction of anti-fascism. For some reason it's what conscious American anti-fascists have adopted as a label. It's a tactic based on stopping fascism by any means necessary before it becomes powerful enough to suppress freedom. Now, where are these murders by antifa in America? There's been one, by a guy in Portland, where he was in a confrontation with others against the far right Proud Boys. This man said he acted in defence against the Proud Boy as he was about to kill the black guy beside him. we'll never know because it won't go to trial as he was killed by the police. The fascist in question might have lived, BLM medics were treating him but were dispersed by the police. Are there any more? Because there have been a hell of a lot by the far right yet you seem to be ignoring them. I even posted some details before in this thread. I also said I think murder (and fascists and the far right like to do murders) is worse than property destruction. Obviously both are crimes, but funnily enough one half of America is cheering the mother of a guy who killed 2 and maimed a third, with possible police collusion, so it does look to me like for some people crimes against property are far worse than murder.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Sorry to dash your hopes with my opinions.
I don’t deny that there are left wing extremists who are doing horrendous things, they might even claim to be acting in the name of Antifa but on whether Antifa is an organised group or a movement/idea (I was claiming the latter) I’ll accept the Director of the FBI’s assessment from the other day over anything Trump has to say:
I don’t really want to get into comparing the crimes of the left to the right, that’s whatabouttery at its finest and just what the right want, but it’s not even close:
Apologies SE9, but after the absolute shambles of an investigation into Russian collusion are we now suggesting the FBI is the cradle of all things correct? Also, I don't believe Antifa are organised because Donald Trump says so, I have two eyes and a functioning brain, I check outside of CNN/NBC/MSNBC. Check local reporters for the true picture of what's going on, I wouldn't trust Brian Stelter with unbias news anymore than I'd let my children play in a prison.
At the end of the day, whether they are an organisation or not, people claiming allegience to ANTIFA are doing horrendous things on the streets of the USA right now. The lack of condemnation from people who share your belief of what ANTIFA are is deafening. As for your second article, I agree with you if we're looking back over a span of 23 years, however the pressing issue is right now, these last six months where an already shot economy is being further decimated by mindless individuals. Business and property ruined, many of which are people of colour, by largely white swathes of antifa-looking members(dressed head to toe in black).
The Guardian (imagine my shock) paints these figures to detract from the situation as it stands, obviously isn't showing the major cities being abandoned for more rural, safe areas among other statistics. And yes, you may have dashed my hopes some more but I'm glad I'm not so gullible to believe that courthouses and properties being set on fire, streets unsafe to walk down as a journalist as well as civilians being beaten in the streets are actually the 'good guys'.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Antifa is a European contraction of anti-fascism. For some reason it's what conscious American anti-fascists have adopted as a label. It's a tactic based on stopping fascism by any means necessary before it becomes powerful enough to suppress freedom. Now, where are these murders by antifa in America? There's been one, by a guy in Portland, where he was in a confrontation with others against the far right Proud Boys. This man said he acted in defence against the Proud Boy as he was about to kill the black guy beside him. we'll never know because it won't go to trial as he was killed by the police. The fascist in question might have lived, BLM medics were treating him but were dispersed by the police. Are there any more? Because there have been a hell of a lot by the far right yet you seem to be ignoring them. I even posted some details before in this thread. I also said I think murder (and fascists and the far right like to do murders) is worse than property destruction. Obviously both are crimes, but funnily enough one half of America is cheering the mother of a guy who killed 2 and maimed a third, with possible police collusion, so it does look to me like for some people crimes against property are far worse than murder.
I'm out for most of the day, but please link me to the articles around some of these facts - I'd genuinely like to read them and will respond with my thoughts later.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Sorry to dash your hopes with my opinions.
I don’t deny that there are left wing extremists who are doing horrendous things, they might even claim to be acting in the name of Antifa but on whether Antifa is an organised group or a movement/idea (I was claiming the latter) I’ll accept the Director of the FBI’s assessment from the other day over anything Trump has to say:
I don’t really want to get into comparing the crimes of the left to the right, that’s whatabouttery at its finest and just what the right want, but it’s not even close:
Apologies SE9, but after the absolute shambles of an investigation into Russian collusion are we now suggesting the FBI is the cradle of all things correct? Also, I don't believe Antifa are organised because Donald Trump says so, I have two eyes and a functioning brain, I check outside of CNN/NBC/MSNBC. Check local reporters for the true picture of what's going on, I wouldn't trust Brian Stelter with unbias news anymore than I'd let my children play in a prison.
At the end of the day, whether they are an organisation or not, people claiming allegience to ANTIFA are doing horrendous things on the streets of the USA right now. The lack of condemnation from people who share your belief of what ANTIFA are is deafening. As for your second article, I agree with you if we're looking back over a span of 23 years, however the pressing issue is right now, these last six months where an already shot economy is being further decimated by mindless individuals. Business and property ruined, many of which are people of colour, by largely white swathes of antifa-looking members(dressed head to toe in black).
The Guardian (imagine my shock) paints these figures to detract from the situation as it stands, obviously isn't showing the major cities being abandoned for more rural, safe areas among other statistics. And yes, you may have dashed my hopes some more but I'm glad I'm not so gullible to believe that courthouses and properties being set on fire, streets unsafe to walk down as a journalist as well as civilians being beaten in the streets are actually the 'good guys'.
Cool, I’ve stated my opinion (which disappointed you), you’ve stated yours (which I’m interested in) and we don’t agree. That’s totally fine, that’s the whole point of civil debate.
Thanks @se9addick for taking the time, think debate is always important and welcome. Much like I said with iceman, I agree that racism has no place in society, I just don't agree with the tactics used to apparently achieve this end.
Some great debate on here from both sides, some I agree with, some I don’t and some which make you stop and rethink you’re previous beliefs.
One quick point, on the subject of positive discrimination, equity etc. No one seems to consider the impact that approach has on the minority in question. You’re effectively telling them that they only got that job or interview because they are black and we need more of them to tick boxes. You’re devaluing the achievement and the person and I can’t think of anything more insulting and disrespectful. They will always have doubt as to why they got the job etc and doubt in their ability and that to me is no better than the discrimination, real or perceived, they have already endured.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-NI azi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Sorry but this is provably wrong. It wasn't a left wing protestor driving a car into their right wing equivalent. It wasnt a left wing teenager taking an illegal fire arm across state lines and commiting killings with it.
There are elements of left wing protest that should probably be reined in, but saying they are "the real fascists" is objectively incorrect.
But in America those who stand up against racist groups and the rise of far right groups, are somehow labelled as terrorists by Trump and his supporters. Again, I might be getting on a bit, but what's changed? How has the term 'anti fascism' be turned into such a negative?
Because in America, Antifa has decided that anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn is actually a fascist (including, for example, the left-wing, Democrat mayor of Portland) and that the entire system in America is racist and white-supremacist, including the police, and a suitable response is to burn down buildings, including, for example, the government offices in Portland, as well as killing and maiming police and other people they choose.
Now, don't get me wrong there are plenty of people on the right in the States who I am no fan of either, but it is undeniable that the vast majority of the violence there in recent times has come from the Antifa-left, the overwhelming majority.
In this way, I would question which side the citizens of Cable Street would be on today.
Antifa isn’t really an organisation in the way you suggest. It’s more of a belief in anti-fascism and a movement against fascism. It doesn’t have a central leadership structure, so I don’t see how it could “decide” anything.
Pretending that Antifa is a single, organised, group is really just a right wing tactic to try and create some convenient whatabouttery whenever someone raises the crimes of (genuinely organised and real) white supremacist and neo-NI azi groups. You saw Trump do that the other night, he looked utterly insane.
Many posts and topics of debate on this thread fill me with hope for the future. That we can be civilised across the aisle and find common ground. This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing? Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
Sorry but this is provably wrong. It wasn't a left wing protestor driving a car into their right wing equivalent. It wasnt a left wing teenager taking an illegal fire arm across state lines and commiting killings with it.
There are elements of left wing protest that should probably be reined in, but saying they are "the real fascists" is objectively incorrect.
That's your opinion. Watch the clips of Kyle Rittenhouse - earlier in the day cleaning. Shouts of 'Trump supporter' being shouted before they chase him. He shot in self-defence killing a paedophile and shooting a domestic abuser who also had his gun pulled. Not saying they deserve death by any means but you can tell alot from character.
It is left wing protestors commiting multiple acts of violence, property destruction and arson that could easily lead to death. Take a look at the David Dorn case for an example where a black retired officer was shot dead while acting as security for a pawn shop. Yet very little outrage there.
You can have your opinion, but mine is not provable false, you haven't proven anything.
Obviously, this thread is far wider than the subject that brings us all together.
I think that all animals are programmed to identify with 'their own' and will naturally tend to side with them rather than the 'others'. It's an instinct that helps survival. We can see it with colonies of Ants working to help their own societies thrive.
As humans, we would often side with family against an outsider even if the family is wrong. As a teenager there were fights with kids from neighbouring estates, nothing to do with drugs or race, just location.
Same goes for countries or religions viewing each other with suspicion and choosing to blame the outsider for the ills of the other. I recall that North Costa Ricans have a tendency to blame Nicaraguans if anything went missing etc.
I believe therefore that we all have latent racist tendencies. Some choose to acknowledge this, others will lump together those that revel in their racism and those who unknowingly make racist remarks etc.
As a biker, I have been barred from pubs etc and regularly stopped by the police in the past for no more than being a biker. It annoyed me that I was being judged for what I was, not for my actions or views. I have a very small understanding of how resentful I would become if that was happening to me due to my colour.
When it was announced that Charlton were returning to The Valley, I was as excited as any other fan and couldn't wait for the day.
The LBG as it was then, made it clear to CAFC and CASC that there were groups of residents close to the ground that was dreading our return. Many of them because they thought that all football fans were racist and would be attacking people from minority groups on match days.
I thought this was ridiculous, but I then recalled the magazine sellers standing in Harvey Gardens after matches before we left. They were members of a racist organisation (NF?), I never saw anyone buy anything, but I never saw anyone challenge them either. Myself included.
I then understood why the residents might have been worried and was concerned that my joy and hooby was bringing genuine fear to a group of people just trying to go about their lives.
I'm proud of the way that CAFC allowed LBG and CASC to work with the local community to reassure them and to emphise to fans that racism would no longer be tolerated.
Of course racism still exists amongst Charlton fans but I believe that minds have been changed, behaviour has for sure.
I don't get the recent protests during a pandemic, I don't get why a special group has been set up in Exeter to exclusively help BAME people suffering from the pandemic. Some actions of well meaning people only create further divide and resentment just as that video posted earlier highlighted.
I like the debate and thoughtful comments on this thread, kind of reminds me of the Brexit thread before the vote. I hope that it doesn't turn to shit like that did.
Given the response to this thread so far, perhaps some of you could educate me on one area in this subject. The sensitive subject it is, I find many people who either are not educated or not willing to be educated create a further divide when there is actually a point worth challenging on racism and specifically between the white and black communities. For example, over the last year or possibly longer, I have witnessed sections of the community who in social media groups whether that be internet forums, Facebook groups, whatsapp groups etc apply what I have been seen as a "no whites" rule as well as hearing the phrase "black people cannot be racist to white people". Now, one issue with this is that as mentioned earlier the majority of uneducated folk then tend to add fuel to the flames, rather than challenge in an educated way. Again I want to stress I am sincerely seeking educating on this part. If parts of the black community are isolating themselves, how can these same people then challenge white people for not challenging racial equality and systemic racism?
I posed this exact question to a close friend who's first reply was that I was exercising my white privilege card. He has African-American heritage and I have known him for 26 years so I know he was saying it partly in jest but deep down I could see he meant what he said. I have no issue accepting I have white privilege, my concern with the ideology is that it'll create further barriers between communities. To further my scenario question above, "If parts of the black community are isolating themselves, how can these same people then challenge white people for not challenging racial equality and systemic racism?" if this is challenged and the first response is that white privilege is being used to tell the black community what they can and cannot be doing, rather than this is being challenged because it is furthering the barrier between races; then it appears the ideology of white privilege is widening the gap.
Apologies if this is difficult to read, post writing after a 14 hour night shift maybe wasn't the best idea.
Comments
I have never experienced any personal antipathy, but there exists (not at all sure how widespread) a degree of unpleasant racism in China.
White people can sometimes be called 'gwailo' (white ghosts) and 'da bize' (big noses), and there is distain for other racial groups based on appearance too. I found that if I engaged in China in Mandarin everything changed, and there is some truth in the desire of some elements of Chinese society, disconnected from the wider world for so long, to seek validation from westerners.
My point being that I suspect all societies have racist elements. There was a programme led by Darcus Howe some years back, that featured a bit of coverage of a game between Charlton and Nottingham Forest (badly edited so NF was established as an allusion to 'national front'), anyway he engaged with some members of the Asian sub-continent community who most definitely demonstrated racist comments and views towards the West Indian community.
I suppose my point is a simplistic one where I repeat again that negative procedure towards others based on their accident of birth is plain wrong, and it is wrong when coming from anybody, not only white people.
I am very aware that close to home, with a Chinese wife and mixed race offspring, that casual racism abounds even now in 2020 and sadly in my experience it has come from white people 99.9% of the time.
The things that need to be engaged with first is not about seeing racism at every turn, but facing up to the most obvious elements of negative racist attitudes. White youth may well be stopped and searched sometimes, but it is a fact that black youth are stopped much more, and more repeatedly. Educational achievement and opportunity is something else that needs looking at, especially as I believe it is less likely that individuals working in that sector are racist, more that the structures in that sector may well be (unintentionally?) racist. It is big issues that must be confronted, but I also agree that any experience of racism must be challenged too.
What would any of us do if at football we heard a nearby spectator calling a player a 'black c**t'?
The point made many posts back in the interview with Michael Holding regarding the work on carbon fibre filaments is an example where skewed and badly weighted world views exist. I am glad that the fruits of slavery in the UK in terms of statues and symbols are being taken down.
I grew up in a time where, looking back, casual and overt racism was everywhere and everyday, things have improved I think, but then again I live in Lewisham not in Lewes and the problem might be worse in the shires than the cities.
The average hourly rate across ethnicity (based on latest figures) is £11.82 per hour. White people are paid slightly more than average in UK at £11.87 per hour. As you say, Indian ethnicity is the highest by some way. However, black people are significantly less (£10.80 per hour). Obviously the Pakistani / Bangladeshi numbers are shocking.
Every cliché about every race around the world is in my head at every encounter with strangers.
I feel it, I know it I admit it, and I remind it to myself. I have to. It constantly wants raise it's lazy head in categorizing people.
Why..?
Perhaps because I am tainted by being on both sides of racism - growing up in a race that reffers to itself as 'chosen people', then at home being reminded that within the chosen people my mum and dad's subrace is slightly less chosen - an appendix if you like...
This is my starting point.
I haven't chosen it but I choose not to stay there.
Armed with what I know, I hope to have my eyes ears and mind open.
Often in social situations I make a risky habit of asking people I meet for the first time for their opinion on a philosophical topic that bugs me (like perceived human consciosness... or playing 3 at the back or 4,4,2).
When successful, it is so rewarding...
To be speaking the universal language of doubt and be united by common human uncertainties and even silence.
Then I know that I have met, and presented myself as a person.
Sounds banal I know (it even embarrasses me) but works for me - it educates me.
Sure at some point we'll go on to swap cultural postcards and recipes but by then we have already created a tiny family between us.
And your last comment is odd. Of course they’d support those protecting them, rather than the fascists attacking them. Moseley’s thugs were trying to emulate what was going on in Germany, and hoped the nazi’s philosophies would spread to Britain. There were to be disappointed
This reply with five likes attached dashes that hope. How can you sit there and type that organised Antifa is a right wing tool used as whataboutery for white supremacists and neo Nazi groups? Have you taken a look at the news in the USA in the last six months? What 'right wing' crimes are even comparable to the riots, murders, burning and looting by the extreme left wing?
Antifa is clearly pockets of organisers who have the intent of assaulting, shouting down and bullying the masses into sharing their train of thought, they're the real facists.
I am anti fascist but have not given details to, paid a subscription in, or signed up to any organisation. Nor are there any leaders that I know of, and I doubt I would follow them if there were.
I am antifa but not a member of anything. To me it is a stance and an approach.
So to say that antifa is organised in any way excludes people like me who are not organised.
It is about being Anti Fascist on a personal level.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-rightwing-extremists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifa?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Now, where are these murders by antifa in America? There's been one, by a guy in Portland, where he was in a confrontation with others against the far right Proud Boys. This man said he acted in defence against the Proud Boy as he was about to kill the black guy beside him. we'll never know because it won't go to trial as he was killed by the police. The fascist in question might have lived, BLM medics were treating him but were dispersed by the police.
Are there any more? Because there have been a hell of a lot by the far right yet you seem to be ignoring them. I even posted some details before in this thread. I also said I think murder (and fascists and the far right like to do murders) is worse than property destruction. Obviously both are crimes, but funnily enough one half of America is cheering the mother of a guy who killed 2 and maimed a third, with possible police collusion, so it does look to me like for some people crimes against property are far worse than murder.
One quick point, on the subject of positive discrimination, equity etc. No one seems to consider the impact that approach has on the minority in question. You’re effectively telling them that they only got that job or interview because they are black and we need more of them to tick boxes. You’re devaluing the achievement and the person and I can’t think of anything more insulting and disrespectful. They will always have doubt as to why they got the job etc and doubt in their ability and that to me is no better than the discrimination, real or perceived, they have already endured.
There are elements of left wing protest that should probably be reined in, but saying they are "the real fascists" is objectively incorrect.
It is left wing protestors commiting multiple acts of violence, property destruction and arson that could easily lead to death. Take a look at the David Dorn case for an example where a black retired officer was shot dead while acting as security for a pawn shop. Yet very little outrage there.
You can have your opinion, but mine is not provable false, you haven't proven anything.
I think that all animals are programmed to identify with 'their own' and will naturally tend to side with them rather than the 'others'. It's an instinct that helps survival. We can see it with colonies of Ants working to help their own societies thrive.
As humans, we would often side with family against an outsider even if the family is wrong. As a teenager there were fights with kids from neighbouring estates, nothing to do with drugs or race, just location.
Same goes for countries or religions viewing each other with suspicion and choosing to blame the outsider for the ills of the other. I recall that North Costa Ricans have a tendency to blame Nicaraguans if anything went missing etc.
I believe therefore that we all have latent racist tendencies. Some choose to acknowledge this, others will lump together those that revel in their racism and those who unknowingly make racist remarks etc.
As a biker, I have been barred from pubs etc and regularly stopped by the police in the past for no more than being a biker. It annoyed me that I was being judged for what I was, not for my actions or views. I have a very small understanding of how resentful I would become if that was happening to me due to my colour.
When it was announced that Charlton were returning to The Valley, I was as excited as any other fan and couldn't wait for the day.
The LBG as it was then, made it clear to CAFC and CASC that there were groups of residents close to the ground that was dreading our return. Many of them because they thought that all football fans were racist and would be attacking people from minority groups on match days.
I thought this was ridiculous, but I then recalled the magazine sellers standing in Harvey Gardens after matches before we left. They were members of a racist organisation (NF?), I never saw anyone buy anything, but I never saw anyone challenge them either. Myself included.
I then understood why the residents might have been worried and was concerned that my joy and hooby was bringing genuine fear to a group of people just trying to go about their lives.
I'm proud of the way that CAFC allowed LBG and CASC to work with the local community to reassure them and to emphise to fans that racism would no longer be tolerated.
Of course racism still exists amongst Charlton fans but I believe that minds have been changed, behaviour has for sure.
I don't get the recent protests during a pandemic, I don't get why a special group has been set up in Exeter to exclusively help BAME people suffering from the pandemic. Some actions of well meaning people only create further divide and resentment just as that video posted earlier highlighted.
I like the debate and thoughtful comments on this thread, kind of reminds me of the Brexit thread before the vote. I hope that it doesn't turn to shit like that did.
The sensitive subject it is, I find many people who either are not educated or not willing to be educated create a further divide when there is actually a point worth challenging on racism and specifically between the white and black communities.
For example, over the last year or possibly longer, I have witnessed sections of the community who in social media groups whether that be internet forums, Facebook groups, whatsapp groups etc apply what I have been seen as a "no whites" rule as well as hearing the phrase "black people cannot be racist to white people". Now, one issue with this is that as mentioned earlier the majority of uneducated folk then tend to add fuel to the flames, rather than challenge in an educated way. Again I want to stress I am sincerely seeking educating on this part. If parts of the black community are isolating themselves, how can these same people then challenge white people for not challenging racial equality and systemic racism?
I posed this exact question to a close friend who's first reply was that I was exercising my white privilege card. He has African-American heritage and I have known him for 26 years so I know he was saying it partly in jest but deep down I could see he meant what he said. I have no issue accepting I have white privilege, my concern with the ideology is that it'll create further barriers between communities. To further my scenario question above, "If parts of the black community are isolating themselves, how can these same people then challenge white people for not challenging racial equality and systemic racism?" if this is challenged and the first response is that white privilege is being used to tell the black community what they can and cannot be doing, rather than this is being challenged because it is furthering the barrier between races; then it appears the ideology of white privilege is widening the gap.
Apologies if this is difficult to read, post writing after a 14 hour night shift maybe wasn't the best idea.