Its potentially an interesting discussion for another thread
But is it a sign of how Technology has changed since 1992 what with the introduction of Internet Forums etc.
My point is in 1991/92 we finished 7th under Curbs and Gritt
The following year we had a period were we got 14-points from seventeen games, ended up 12th in the League
This season we're going through a period of 18-points from seventeen games
Should Curbs and Gritt have gone?
This is league 1, an awful league one at that. On current former, bowyer is taking us to our worst league position in most Charlton supporters life times.
Can’t really compare to grit and curbs in a league above
Another it's only League one quote.
Okay, let’s pretend we aren’t currently in league 1
You were saying it like we have the right to automatically get promoted. We don't and some of our fans need to be realistic.
Of course we don’t have an automatic right to get promoted but it would be nice to see some semblance of a settled team, some semblance of a game plan, some idea of tactics. I don’t have a problem losing but at least give them a game. I’m done with Bowyer.
I agree we are well off this year but In my eyes he deserves more time and to re-build. I don't want to be a sacking club
He is on a path to being sacked, that is how it is going to end. I've seen enough football to know when a manager has lost it. Maybe Lee can find it somewhere else, but for me it is a question of dragging this out or seeing if somebody else can turn THIS season around. Like Bowyer did when Robinson was sacked. Maybe you didn't think that was the right thing to do.
It was the right time for Robinson to go because he'd already had 18 months (74 games) at it in this league getting us nowhere. Bowyer's had six months (26 games).
But he's had nearly 3 seasons at the helm and has regressed tactically in that time. It can't be denied the last 16 months haven't been great in spite of the challenges faced.
Stick with him. We've had too many managers over the last 10 years and the club needs stability. It looks like we have it with TS so let's back him and build something. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. We had our best periods under Curbs after giving him time.
No point sticking with a mediocre manager.
Was Bowyer a mediorce manager when we went up two years ago?
Well he had a squad of players that frankly it would have been embarrassing not to go up. Sarr, Bauer, Djiksteel, Taylor, Grant, Cullen, Bielik, Aribo etc. An embarrassment of riches (let’s not consider who owned us at the time) and worth millions with players in the premier league / solid championship now
Its potentially an interesting discussion for another thread
But is it a sign of how Technology has changed since 1992 what with the introduction of Internet Forums etc.
My point is in 1991/92 we finished 7th under Curbs and Gritt
The following year we had a period were we got 14-points from seventeen games, ended up 12th in the League
This season we're going through a period of 18-points from seventeen games
Should Curbs and Gritt have gone?
This is league 1, an awful league one at that. On current former, bowyer is taking us to our worst league position in most Charlton supporters life times.
Can’t really compare to grit and curbs in a league above
Another it's only League one quote.
Okay, let’s pretend we aren’t currently in league 1
You were saying it like we have the right to automatically get promoted. We don't and some of our fans need to be realistic.
Of course we don’t have an automatic right to get promoted but it would be nice to see some semblance of a settled team, some semblance of a game plan, some idea of tactics. I don’t have a problem losing but at least give them a game. I’m done with Bowyer.
I agree we are well off this year but In my eyes he deserves more time and to re-build. I don't want to be a sacking club
He is on a path to being sacked, that is how it is going to end. I've seen enough football to know when a manager has lost it. Maybe Lee can find it somewhere else, but for me it is a question of dragging this out or seeing if somebody else can turn THIS season around. Like Bowyer did when Robinson was sacked. Maybe you didn't think that was the right thing to do.
It was the right time for Robinson to go because he'd already had 18 months (74 games) at it in this league getting us nowhere. Bowyer's had six months (26 games).
But he's had nearly 3 seasons at the helm and has regressed tactically.
Actually, I think he has overcomplicated tactically. He was, if people can remember, one of the most front foot managers in the league when he started. He is now arguably one of the most back foot. Go figure!
Stick with him. We've had too many managers over the last 10 years and the club needs stability. It looks like we have it with TS so let's back him and build something. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. We had our best periods under Curbs after giving him time.
No point sticking with a mediocre manager.
Was Bowyer a mediorce manager when we went up two years ago?
In 2019 Bowyer got lucky. He inherited some good players who were on long contracts from the Katrine Miele days, plus Karlan Grant finally came good. He did buy Taylor, and he made some very shrewd loan deals with Cullen, Belik, and Williams. In 2021 things are different. The quality players are no longer in the squad. We are now a team of average league 1 players. Bowyer’s failure to motivate these players is evident. By league 1 standards we are a big club. But we are not playing like a big club. Tactics and team selection is appalling. Miller was man of the match last week and this week he is on the bench.
Sadly I think that Bowyer has been found out and for the good of both parties Bowyer now needs to go.
Stick with him. We've had too many managers over the last 10 years and the club needs stability. It looks like we have it with TS so let's back him and build something. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. We had our best periods under Curbs after giving him time.
No point sticking with a mediocre manager.
Was Bowyer a mediorce manager when we went up two years ago?
Well he had a squad of players that frankly it would have been embarrassing not to go up. Sarr, Bauer, Djiksteel, Taylor, Grant, Cullen, Bielik, Aribo etc. An embarrassment of riches (let’s not consider who owned us at the time) and worth millions with players in the premier league / solid championship now
I find that there is a massive cross over of people that say what a good manager Bowyer is because he took us up in 2019 and also say what do you expect he had the best players in the league in 2019 he can't do it with the dross he has now.
It's almost like they defeat their own argument without realising it.
I think another thing that is complete speculation of course, but would make sense of why Bowyer has seemingly declined is why so many managers like Mourinho have a short shelf life at a club, is that they are very hard on their players and can lose a dressing room. Obviously rumours like that were flying this year, and his post match comments haven't been great in digging out players. It doesn't make him a "bad manager" now necessarily, but a lot of managers are good for a short time. There's a chance he might be one of those.
I kind of think sacking someone right after a transfer window is pretty daft though, especially when nothing has really changed in the last month and in my opinion everything to be seen was already there, might as well give him a bit of time with the new signings. It is just the constant changes which are the most infuriating part though.
This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened us
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
Not one defender anywhere better than Pearce and Gunter at centre half?
There is a Manager out there who, me included, accused of not having a "Plan B", Well "Plan A" has won Oxford 9 games on the bounce (and unbeaten in 13) and they are now just 3 points behind us with 3 games in hand.
I say "irony" because I still haven't worked out what LB's "Plan A" but know exactly what "Plan B" is. It's the one that should have been "Plan A" in the first place!
There's nothing wrong with winning 1-0 without being brilliant, being able to grind out the wins like the ones we had against MKD and Bristol Rovers is a key ingredient for promotion.
However we're not combining these 1-0s with good performances in the other games, you have to go back an awfully long way for a GOOD performance, the sort where we impose ourselves on the opponents and make the rest of the division concerned. Wimbledon (and even that was only really a good second half) was 11 games ago, a distant memory now.
Against weaker sides we are drawing far too often. Against good sides we are now consistently losing. In 2021 we have lost to Hull, Accrington, Peterborough and now Portsmouth.
We are a midtable side and have been for a long time. What's striking about the form tables is how consistently poor we've been for ages. We're either 14th or 15th over the last 6, 8, 10, and 12 matches. The brilliant run in October is now looking like the blip, not our current form. Our GD of +4 is now 15 worse than that of Pompey, 9 worse than Sunderland and 7 worse than Accrington.
Is that good enough with the players we have, and indeed with the players we had. Personally I don't think so. It would be silly to sack a manager 1 day after the window closes, but sadly I do feel that another manager now would get more out of our players, and indeed many of the ones we had before. In the same way Bowyer himself took over and got better results with Robinson's players.
There's nothing wrong with winning 1-0 without being brilliant, being able to grind out the wins like the ones we had against MKD and Bristol Rovers is a key ingredient for promotion.
However we're not combining these 1-0s with good performances in the other games, you have to go back an awfully long way for a GOOD performance, the sort where we impose ourselves on the opponents and make the rest of the division concerned. Wimbledon (and even that was only really a good second half) was 11 games ago, a distant memory now.
Against weaker sides we are drawing far too often. Against good sides we are now consistently losing. In 2021 we have lost to Hull, Accrington, Peterborough and now Portsmouth.
We are a midtable side and have been for a long time. What's striking about the form tables is how consistently poor we've been for ages. We're either 14th or 15th over the last 6, 8, 10, and 12 matches. The brilliant run in October is now looking like the blip, not our current form. Our GD of +4 is now 15 worse than that of Pompey, 9 worse than Sunderland and 7 worse than Accrington.
Is that good enough with the players we have, and indeed with the players we had. Personally I don't think so. It would be silly to sack a manager 1 day after the window closes, but sadly I do feel that another manager now would get more out of our players, and indeed many of the ones we had before. In the same way Bowyer himself took over and got better results with Robinson's players.
I take the point about getting more out of the players and there was an initial improvement but, to be fair to Robinson his overall record that season was 19-11-15 (W-D-L). LB's was 6-1-5 and we actually only scored 4 goals in our final 8 matches with blanks in both play off games, We had a similar scoring run at the end of last season with just 6 goals in our last 12 games.
In the season following Robinson's departure, we added Taylor, Cullen, Pratley, Bielik, Purrington, Phillips and Williams who all played a meaningful role in our promotion, with all five of those that have left now at clubs in a higher league than we are currently.
What I don't get is the we are too soft excuse for losing games.
We have picked up so many bookings from being bit too physical at times and making silly challenges when we don't need to because the players feel like they need to get stuck in but it just gives the opposition a set piece and good oppountiy to create something.
It appears to me that we are working on attacking patterns to create chances movement off the ball etc but keep tinkering the system and personel which isn't beneficial, but I don't see any cohesion defensively.
Too many players reacting to the danger when it's too late rather then then reading the play and anticipating the game. I only coach/play at a amatuer level but have been astonished by some of the decisions these players have made recently a lot of it is trying to win the game physically rather then playing smart and our decision making on and off the ball is why we are losing games not being too soft.
Based on Stockleys performance I think he can be a handful up front by himself to begin with pack the midfield either 4 and one behind stockley or 5 and keep the back 4 as a unit. We can't afford to give players time and space to run free at our back 4 and work the ball into the box so easy pick up 2nd balls so easy.
This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened us
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
Not one defender anywhere better than Pearce and Gunter at centre half?
I understand the 2 players per position only want 4 centre backs.
But
To have the option of going 3 at the back or keeping a more consistent back 4 having a extra one isn't a bad option.
Also we shouldn't rotate defensively like forwards so chopping and changing to fix the defence Gunter and Pratley stepping in rather then a like for like swap isn't ideal imo.
Then at the moment we have 4 centre Half's all prone to injury and haven't really played week in week out all season. Bauer could consistently play 40+ games a season Morrison is another prime example.
Lastly quality we got rid of Bogle to get Stockley Millar came in give us more pace and quality out wide, Surely can see the position needs addressing so why not get someone in to help?
It's been a weird season and I honestly don't think the uncertainty in the first transfer window helped us. The squad was put together in 3 weeks after TS takeover. How many of these players did LB actually want or did he have to settle for these? Obviously it's too soon to reflect on Jan's business which in all honest doesn't look that bad. In my opinion I want to see him have a full summer window with the backing of a decent owner.
Fully understand all of the signings we've made and believe we're stronger overall than at the start of the window but cannot believe there's no centre back out there more capable of doing a job for us at centre back than Gunter.
We don't know how long Famewo will take to get back up to speed, he might even break down again. We have no clue when Inniss will return and he has a history of injuries anyway. Pearce is past it.
Can't get my head around the fact they decided our centre back situation was fine and that we've got Gunter and Pratley who can step in there. It's been pretty apparent to anyone over the last 15 or so games that although they can step in, they can't do it well. There's a reason we've got the 9th worst defensive record in the division. Centre back is a pretty important area on the pitch. Bowyer wouldn't say 'oh well it doesn't matter if Aneke and Stockley are injured, we've got Morgan and Shinnie who can step in up front'. Never in a million years. So i've no idea why he's completely neglected the defence.
Promotion winning sides are generally built from the base of a solid defence. No side in modern day football has much of a chance of promotion if they leak 60+ goals. A centre back should've been the priority on 1 Jan after we conceded 2 goals to Wimbledon, Swindon and Plymouth at the end of December. But here we are 8 games and 8 points later with the same fucking problem and it isn't good enough. A sixth of our season wasted because of an issue that could've been addressed 5 weeks ago.
Bowyer won’t be sacked this season, certainly not now, would be crazy to make that decision the day after the transfer window closes.
Not saying I agree with it, but that’s how I see it.
Agree give him to the end of the season and review then.
Why wait for the inevitable? I really don’t get this attitude.
The excuses are drying up now.
I’m sure Bowyer said after the Rochdale debacle that that would never happen with a Pratley or a Watson on the pitch.
The players are so scared to not show they’re weak after the public shaming of Albie, Williams and Maddison that they’ve forgotten how to play football. The amount of stupid fouls we gave away tonight was horrendous.
I’m incredibly thankful for everything he’s done for the club over the past few years but we need to get out of this league and we’re not going to do it with him in charge.
I’m just a little uneasy with getting rid without giving a chance after the window.
I am one of the first people to call for stability and patience something which is lacking in football now days, the club has been run short term for so long I wanna give a bit more time.
I understand i might be in a minority now and I certainly am critical of team selection, tactics and chopping around this season but prepared to give the benefit of a bit more time.
Mistakes have been made no denying that, all managers make mistakes I just want to give the opportunity to learn from them and fix it otherwise you could be changing managers so often which I am not a fan off.
Bowyer has done some very good things as manager I don’t necessarily wanna give up on him the first bad patch.
Last night we had no shape (at one stage we had 3 players competing for a header when a ball got swung in to the back post whilst nobody was in the middle) and when we defend we seem to turn our back on the ball as the players run to get back into position. An average team will find us easy pickings let alone a Portsmouth
Last night made my mind up. I’ve been feeling for a while that Bowyer had lost it with the tinkerings, defensive mindset and public ranting. However the last three games, results aside, gave a glimmer that we had found a shape and personnel that would improve us and I was happy with the window. But no. First day back at school after the window and we are playing the bloody diamond again and he drops Millar. Inexplicable. Absolutely inexplicable. And the post match cheery interview just had me scratching my head. For once I would have taken the angry man but no, we’ve got chatty Lee having a banter with his mates. Of course Thomas isn’t going to act right now after the window but there is an inevitability about this now. It is a matter of time. Enough now tinkerman. Thanks for Wembley and for seeing us through the shitshow but that was your moment.
Yes, he is losing it. He just refuses to go with the obvious team selections. Wants to be clever. Wants to be edgy. Wants to be Bowyer the Manager. Bowyer the expert. Bowyer the genius. Well, it's not working and he doesn't seem to be able to change. I can't see him being around for too much longer and, actually, I'm glad. I'm starting to really not like him. His arrogance is getting to me. It's just not working Bowyer, don't you get it!!!
He keeps making the same mistakes. Why can't he see it? It's madness.
He's 100% lost it, too reactive and constant changing our system for opponents as if Portsmouth was 2009 Barcelona, just once i'd like us to impose ourselves on the game more than worrying and changing for whoever we're playing.
Get Paul Cook in and let him evaluate the squad before the summer whichever league we end up in for me
If we had cancelled Famewo's loan could we of brought in another loan at the time? If so I'm not sure why we've hung onto him for 3/4 months
Just a thought. We might buy him.
At the end of 2019 he signed a new improved deal with Norwich to 2023, who at the time were a Premier league club. Even if we could afford his transfer fee and he wanted to join us, there's surely next to no chance his salary is manageable within the salary cap.
Comments
He inherited some good players who were on long contracts from the Katrine Miele days, plus Karlan Grant finally came good.
He did buy Taylor, and he made some very shrewd loan deals with Cullen, Belik, and Williams.
In 2021 things are different. The quality players are no longer in the squad. We are now a team of average league 1 players. Bowyer’s failure to motivate these players is evident.
By league 1 standards we are a big club. But we are not playing like a big club. Tactics and team selection is appalling. Miller was man of the match last week and this week he is on the bench.
Sadly I think that Bowyer has been found out and for the good of both parties Bowyer now needs to go.
It's almost like they defeat their own argument without realising it.
I would say we are not. The constant scapegoating, blaming refs etc etc is proof of this- there's always an excuse.
I kind of think sacking someone right after a transfer window is pretty daft though, especially when nothing has really changed in the last month and in my opinion everything to be seen was already there, might as well give him a bit of time with the new signings. It is just the constant changes which are the most infuriating part though.
That's not a call for Southall or Farnell.
The lad has literally played with Smith for most of the season!
There is a Manager out there who, me included, accused of not having a "Plan B", Well "Plan A" has won Oxford 9 games on the bounce (and unbeaten in 13) and they are now just 3 points behind us with 3 games in hand.
I say "irony" because I still haven't worked out what LB's "Plan A" but know exactly what "Plan B" is. It's the one that should have been "Plan A" in the first place!
However we're not combining these 1-0s with good performances in the other games, you have to go back an awfully long way for a GOOD performance, the sort where we impose ourselves on the opponents and make the rest of the division concerned. Wimbledon (and even that was only really a good second half) was 11 games ago, a distant memory now.
Against weaker sides we are drawing far too often. Against good sides we are now consistently losing. In 2021 we have lost to Hull, Accrington, Peterborough and now Portsmouth.
We are a midtable side and have been for a long time. What's striking about the form tables is how consistently poor we've been for ages. We're either 14th or 15th over the last 6, 8, 10, and 12 matches. The brilliant run in October is now looking like the blip, not our current form. Our GD of +4 is now 15 worse than that of Pompey, 9 worse than Sunderland and 7 worse than Accrington.
https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england3
Is that good enough with the players we have, and indeed with the players we had. Personally I don't think so. It would be silly to sack a manager 1 day after the window closes, but sadly I do feel that another manager now would get more out of our players, and indeed many of the ones we had before. In the same way Bowyer himself took over and got better results with Robinson's players.
In the season following Robinson's departure, we added Taylor, Cullen, Pratley, Bielik, Purrington, Phillips and Williams who all played a meaningful role in our promotion, with all five of those that have left now at clubs in a higher league than we are currently.
Sorry DJ, we're not playing you until you've been on a team bonding session and remembered everyones name and one important fact about them.
We have picked up so many bookings from being bit too physical at times and making silly challenges when we don't need to because the players feel like they need to get stuck in but it just gives the opposition a set piece and good oppountiy to create something.
It appears to me that we are working on attacking patterns to create chances movement off the ball etc but keep tinkering the system and personel which isn't beneficial, but I don't see any cohesion defensively.
Too many players reacting to the danger when it's too late rather then then reading the play and anticipating the game. I only coach/play at a amatuer level but have been astonished by some of the decisions these players have made recently a lot of it is trying to win the game physically rather then playing smart and our decision making on and off the ball is why we are losing games not being too soft.
Based on Stockleys performance I think he can be a handful up front by himself to begin with pack the midfield either 4 and one behind stockley or 5 and keep the back 4 as a unit. We can't afford to give players time and space to run free at our back 4 and work the ball into the box so easy pick up 2nd balls so easy.
I understand the 2 players per position only want 4 centre backs.
But
To have the option of going 3 at the back or keeping a more consistent back 4 having a extra one isn't a bad option.
Also we shouldn't rotate defensively like forwards so chopping and changing to fix the defence Gunter and Pratley stepping in rather then a like for like swap isn't ideal imo.
Then at the moment we have 4 centre Half's all prone to injury and haven't really played week in week out all season. Bauer could consistently play 40+ games a season Morrison is another prime example.
Lastly quality we got rid of Bogle to get Stockley
Millar came in give us more pace and quality out wide, Surely can see the position needs addressing so why not get someone in to help?
In my opinion I want to see him have a full summer window with the backing of a decent owner.
We don't know how long Famewo will take to get back up to speed, he might even break down again.
We have no clue when Inniss will return and he has a history of injuries anyway.
Pearce is past it.
Can't get my head around the fact they decided our centre back situation was fine and that we've got Gunter and Pratley who can step in there. It's been pretty apparent to anyone over the last 15 or so games that although they can step in, they can't do it well. There's a reason we've got the 9th worst defensive record in the division. Centre back is a pretty important area on the pitch. Bowyer wouldn't say 'oh well it doesn't matter if Aneke and Stockley are injured, we've got Morgan and Shinnie who can step in up front'. Never in a million years. So i've no idea why he's completely neglected the defence.
Promotion winning sides are generally built from the base of a solid defence. No side in modern day football has much of a chance of promotion if they leak 60+ goals. A centre back should've been the priority on 1 Jan after we conceded 2 goals to Wimbledon, Swindon and Plymouth at the end of December. But here we are 8 games and 8 points later with the same fucking problem and it isn't good enough. A sixth of our season wasted because of an issue that could've been addressed 5 weeks ago.
Get Paul Cook in and let him evaluate the squad before the summer whichever league we end up in for me