Am a Bowyer supporter who thinks we owe him this blip. However, the blip has to be over. Nothing less than 6 points by 5pm next Saturday or we will need a change if promotion this season is important.
The question ‘has the manager lost the dressing room’ is an important one, but in this case I think more pertinent is ‘who in the dressing room has he lost’ and ‘why has he lost them?’.
If the manager is falling out with players because they are showing poor commitment, poor attitude, not following team instructions, difficult individuals etc then the problem is with the individuals. You hope it’s a small number, and you need to move them out asap.
If it’s wider reaching than that, if the collective of the experienced players genuinely believe the manager is either out of his depth, or religiously picking tactics that are not to the benefit of the team, or falling out with too much individuals unfairly, that’s more serious.
I’m not convinced what it is.
The injuries massively clouds it, the squad assembly in such a short time with the salary cap restrictions clouds it, the unique situation of no crowds clouds it.
Given the proven aspects we’ve had since he took over, and weighing up all those clouding aspects, that’s why I’m personally giving the benefit of doubt and the opportunity to turn it around. It’s very hard to bemoan lack of loyalty if you’re not prepared to give it yourself.
it’s not indefinite loyalty though. Things need to turn around quickly.
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
Lose again on Tuesday & TS will have a big decision to make
Why do we always have to wait until something goes wrong...again?! I never understand this mentality.
Waiting until the Tuesday game is over won’t change the fact the players aren’t playing for him. It won’t take away the fact his man management this season has been juvenile. It won’t take away the ridiculous comments made about Williams, Maddison, Morgan, Bogle etc.
Do you really think that come Wednesday everything will be ok after 3 points?
Aside from him declaring war on half the squad, the other thing that concerns me was his comment last night about how things would've been different if we'd had Pratley and Watson playing.
Seemingly forgetting that they featured heavily in a side who'd taken 10 points from the previous 9 games.
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
That’s the spirit.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
The squad was cobbled together in a couple of weeks at the end of the summer window, we're not good enough to challenge.
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
That’s the spirit.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
The squad was cobbled together in a couple of weeks at the end of the summer window, we're not good enough to challenge.
I’m thinking more and more towards that.
A promotion squad is one that should have a real go at staying up in the Championship with some good additions made to it.
If you kept the squad together in the summer it’s nowhere near that. There are too many there that no Championship club would be interested in signing.
Bowyer getting sixth after Robinson walked completely ruins my argument
But its also worth remembering we've had our joint worst seasons in this tier since 1974 when we finished 13th in both 2011 and 2017
That was when Parkinson was replaced with Powell and Slade was replaced with Robinson mid-season
Its why Bowyer gets until the end of the season for me and doesnt just get a "he has until October" time frame as thats just weird
I think if Bowyer goes now, our season is done... Could argue our season is done now anyway!!
There's no doubt it doesn't always work. But look at this list of clubs: Charlton, Luton, Barnsley, Wigan, Hull, Middlesborough. Three of those clubs changed their manager and three didn't. Three of those got relegated and three didn't. Of course both ourselves and Wigan had excuses but Luton and Barnsley looked dead and buried.
I don't agree that if Bowyer goes our season is done. We still have a good chance of the play offs. If Bowyer has lost the dressing room, giving him until the end of the season isn't going to help because what he would need is a big change in squad numbers which he wouldn't be do now anyway. If he hasn't, he should absolutely be given the chance to turn it around.
For me the question is do I see Bowyer getting us promoted from this division.
At the moment no. He is also having a habit of falling out with some key players. I really want him to succeed but I can't see it at the moment. Maybe with Innis and Famewo and Shinnie back fit we'll get better and I'll be saying Bowyer is the man to get us back promoted. I think he has to change his way of thinking on approaching games. It's L1 and we're far too negative
Aside from him declaring war on half the squad, the other thing that concerns me was his comment last night about how things would've been different if we'd had Pratley and Watson playing.
Seemingly forgetting that they featured heavily in a side who'd taken 10 points from the previous 9 games.
I think he was referring to a couple of players that wouldn’t bottle tackles and would fight for the club.
And didn’t they also play in the winning run when CL was awash with automatic promotion - as well as the losing one
Lose again on Tuesday & TS will have a big decision to make
Why do we always have to wait until something goes wrong...again?! I never understand this mentality.
Waiting until the Tuesday game is over won’t change the fact the players aren’t playing for him. It won’t take away the fact his man management this season has been juvenile. It won’t take away the ridiculous comments made about Williams, Maddison, Morgan, Bogle etc.
Do you really think that come Wednesday everything will be ok after 3 points?
More to the point, does anyone genuinely think we will get three points against Rochdale?
Bowyer getting sixth after Robinson walked completely ruins my argument
But its also worth remembering we've had our joint worst seasons in this tier since 1974 when we finished 13th in both 2011 and 2017
That was when Parkinson was replaced with Powell and Slade was replaced with Robinson mid-season
Its why Bowyer gets until the end of the season for me and doesnt just get a "he has until October" time frame as thats just weird
I think if Bowyer goes now, our season is done... Could argue our season is done now anyway!!
There's no doubt it doesn't always work. But look at this list of clubs: Charlton, Luton, Barnsley, Wigan, Hull, Middlesborough. Three of those clubs changed their manager and three didn't. Three of those got relegated and three didn't. Of course both ourselves and Wigan had excuses but Luton and Barnsley looked dead and buried.
I don't agree that if Bowyer goes our season is done. We still have a good chance of the play offs. If Bowyer has lost the dressing room, giving him until the end of the season isn't going to help because what he would need is a big change in squad numbers which he wouldn't be do now anyway. If he hasn't, he should absolutely be given the chance to turn it around.
Boro is the most extreme example as they looked a shambles under Woodgate until Colin completely turned them around with the same players. Dijksteel bombed out by Woodgate, a regular under Colin and has signed a new 4 year contract
Purrington - league one/championship Maatsen - Premier League academy
Pearce - league one/championship Matthews - international football Gunter - international football
Famewo - championship/PL academy
Inniss - PL club
Watson - championship Shinnie - league one winner/championship
Pratley - league one/championship Gilbey - league one POTY
Maddison - top end league one
Morgan - league one/championship Williams - international football
Washington - international football/SFPL
Aneke - league one/championship Smyth - championship club Bogle - league one/league two
Will people stop saying we have a weak squad. Every player has been successful at this level, or as played at a level above.
Accrington have a striker from non league who bullied us last night ffs.
Saying 'international football' doesn't necessarily mean a player is good enough.
Simon Church was a Welsh international, so is Levit.
We're talking Wales here, that's at a decent international level. That's a nation that plays in Euro and WC qualifiers against top sides, so I think it's a fair point to highlight.
The point is that all those players have played a level above where we are now - Matthews, Gunter & Williams all playing regular Championship football, as well as earning caps for Wales.
Church scored goals at Championship level and Levitt is rated by United. I trust their coaching staff to know a good player more than ours.
Bowyer is starting to sound like me. which for a manager is not a good thing. I would of said the same about Maddison, he did pull out of a tackle but then again i would of never hired him in the first place. the fact is we got him which means we need to play him, he scored a beauty of a goal on boxing day and then he's dropped??
When we had that little spurt of players coming through the door then all thrown together on the pitch,they had freedom to roam & we were getting results & were also saying...”how good are we going to be when they have jelled”,...so question is...were they ever good enough,or is it something to do with the training,ie Chaltonised or is it Bowyer...??
If Bowyer is to stay Gallen will need to try to shift the likes of Williams, Maddison and Bogle out of the club this window to free up wages and space for others that Bowyer feels he can rely upon. JW and MM’s attitude on the pitch is a symptom of how they have been treated and feel. When JW is motivated, he will create space and win free kicks galore in the final third, MM is renowned for not having the best attitude, but can turn it on game in game out at League One level if given the faith - his Peterborough record is not a fluke and proves that. We have seen glimpses so far.
The current mix is toxic and if TS wants to get us out of this division at the first attempt with LB, he needs to back the decisions that need to be made and settle some out of the club if there are no takers.
I see no other way. The relationship LB has with those mentioned is clearly BROKEN.
If this squad is as good as people think we wouldn't be where we are. It seems to me like a bunch of misfits nobody else wanted.
"He's played in the Championship" probably still would be were he good enough.
"He's an international" so what. I often wonder how international teams would fair against domestic league teams. The likes of Wales i would guess, not very well.
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
That’s the spirit.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
The squad was cobbled together in a couple of weeks at the end of the summer window, we're not good enough to challenge.
I’m thinking more and more towards that.
A promotion squad is one that should have a real go at staying up in the Championship with some good additions made to it.
If you kept the squad together in the summer it’s nowhere near that. There are too many there that no Championship club would be interested in signing.
I tend to agree, I look at which of our players would get into either of our Promotion sides and for me there really aren’t many, you could make a case for Amos and Chuks but that’s about it. Famewo and Inniss looked promising too but I’d still prefer the Bauer and Pearce/Sarr combo or Morrison and Taylor.
From the rest of the team I don’t think 1 player makes either side.
Something isn’t right that’s for sure. I still think it’s pressure of expectations but in any case as far as I’m concerned every manager has the right to be given time to turn it around. Especially a manager who until just a few short weeks ago has been massively in credit in terms of loyalty and over achieving. In four weeks we’ll either still be in the hunt or dead and buried. I’m on the fence until then at least.
At the end of the day, I am happy we have Sandgaard and I think he deserves better. If he wants to stick with Bowyer, fair enough, it is his club. I do think he should remove him but the owner has every right to run his club and Sandgaard will have my support whatever.
100% supported him last year when others doubted. He has had a rollercoaster and tough time at Charlton.
I would love for him to work out this season but no manager has ever recovered once they have lost the dressing room (unless someone can give me an example?), and, for me, Bowyer clearly has.
These players are no playing for him, he is openly criticising them on a regular basis after games and there have been one or two tweets from players which had an undertone of upset which never happens in a happy dressing room.
For me, whilst sad, it is time to move on. It is easy for fans to say he has earned the season etc as we are not pumping £m's to fund a League One club.
Would like to see Cook but he looks likely to go to Sheff Weds, Howe is a pipe dream no point in discussing and despite their previous success I would be very nervous of Powell (very defensive and no real success since leaving us) or Curbs (out of management too long).
In recent appointments, we have done well letting a young manager take the reigns for the first time (Powell and Bowyer both led us to promotion) and whilst I doubt anyone else agrees, I would be interested to see how Pratley got on in a caretaker role if he wanted it, I think he has the makings of a fine manager.
If this squad is as good as people think we wouldn't be where we are. It seems to me like a bunch of misfits nobody else wanted.
"He's played in the Championship" probably still would be were he good enough.
"He's an international" so what. I often wonder how international teams would fair against domestic league teams. The likes of Wales i would guess, not very well.
Heard it all now. You don't think the Welsh national team would compete in a domestic league? Jesus wept.
It's one thing to be a fine leader on the pitch but I don't think Pratley should be given the chance to fulfill TS's five year plan. If Bowyer was to go then I'd much prefer to employ a manager with a bit of experience when/if the time comes. Who that may be I don't know but then I don't own a professional football club.
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
That’s the spirit.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
The squad was cobbled together in a couple of weeks at the end of the summer window, we're not good enough to challenge.
I’m thinking more and more towards that.
A promotion squad is one that should have a real go at staying up in the Championship with some good additions made to it.
If you kept the squad together in the summer it’s nowhere near that. There are too many there that no Championship club would be interested in signing.
I tend to agree, I look at which of our players would get into either of our Promotion sides and for me there really aren’t many, you could make a case for Amos and Chuks but that’s about it. Famewo and Inniss looked promising too but I’d still prefer the Bauer and Pearce/Sarr combo or Morrison and Taylor.
From the rest of the team I don’t think 1 player makes either side.
How many of our own players are we worried will be targeted by other clubs in the window, other than the injured Doughty
2 years ago the likes of Grant (who left), Taylor, Bauer, Aribo would all have attracted attention in January
Something isn’t right that’s for sure. I still think it’s pressure of expectations but in any case as far as I’m concerned every manager has the right to be given time to turn it around. Especially a manager who until just a few short weeks ago has been massively in credit in terms of loyalty and over achieving. In four weeks we’ll either still be in the hunt or dead and buried. I’m on the fence until then at least.
It seems that loyalty and respect count for absolutely f*** all these days mate.
I do however think that what kept Bowyer at the Club through the whole shit show, wasn't just loyalty from him, but also the fact he could cut his teeth in management in the no-lose situation he was in.
Still dont understand why he cant be given the benefit of doubt, from the fans, for at least the rest of this season though....
Bowyer is starting to sound like me. which for a manager is not a good thing. I would of said the same about Maddison, he did pull out of a tackle but then again i would of never hired him in the first place. the fact is we got him which means we need to play him, he scored a beauty of a goal on boxing day and then he's dropped??
Maatsen pulled out of one in the first half and had a poor game. Why wasn’t he thrown under the bus
I posted this in the match thread but probably more relevant here.
Most results come down to small margins and we have so many issues at the moment that it’s not surprising we’re struggling.
We don’t have a settled team, formation and style of play. Some reasons for this include:
1. Too many players who aren’t fit enough to play regularly. Look back at promotion winning squad and you’ll find several players made 30/40+ league starts.
2. Creative players who aren’t trusted so they never get a run of games, we’ll never see the best of them which is needed to develop that settled style of play. Williams and Maddison are both 27, they’re not going to drastically improve the defensive side of their game.
3. A manager more concerned with stopping the opposition. In the past Bowyer’s tweaks were effective. Now he looks like he’s trying to stumble upon something that works - we seem to be switching between a diamond, 3-5-2, 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 with each game. At least it looked like a much more normal line up last night, no Matthews at left back or Maatsen at right midfield.
4. Injuries to key players - Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Doughty. The original plan was to mainly use 4-3-3 - Pratley and Watson in front of Inniss and Famewo made us very hard to break down and strong defensively. Doughty gave us a pacey outlet which meant we could either get in behind teams if they pushed up or it would create space for us if they sat deeper. Fewer injuries or injuries to different players would have seen us stick with this plan and things could have been very different. Any club would find it harder with four important players out.
5. Players not wanted by the manager. It’s become clear JFC and Williams took up their optional contract extensions rather than Bowyer choosing to keep them. He’d also sell Oshilaja if he could and despite signing him I’m sure he’d happily get rid of Bogle too. There may be more on the list that aren’t so obvious, Purrington for example. Last night he talked about wanting to shake it up - the players must have known that and it can’t help them put in their maximum for the club and Bowyer.
6. All of the above means the chances and goals are drying up. We created some chances last night but how many were ones you’d expect to score, rather than those you’d expect a goalkeeper to save? With Inniss out we also don’t threaten enough from set pieces, he’s either our target or a player who the opposition focus on which creates space for others.
7. We’re now on a long poor run of form, the players know it. At 2-0 down I had given up and knew we weren’t coming back. The players aren’t looking confident and happy, and I don’t see Bowyer regularly criticising individuals in public helping that.
We have 26 games to scrape together 20 or so points to ensure we’re in this league as a minimum next season.
With the contract situation and five loans we’ll have another huge rebuild in the summer. Hopefully the last major one for many years. I’d even seriously consider letting good players like Aneke go because he doesn’t appear capable of playing 90 minutes, never mind making 40+ starts over a season.
I’m sure there will be a lot more improvements behind the scenes to resolve some of the issues - reducing injuries, expanding our scouting network to look at more players etc which will all help.
Thinking ahead to next season Sandgaard has a big decision to make that I feel is best made over the next few weeks, either:
1. Bowyer is the right man and simply doesn’t have a good enough squad, including too many players who know they’re only here until the summer. I wouldn’t completely write him off, on the other hand he may need to accept that with the salary cap it’s very difficult to find quality attacking and creative players who also work hard, are very fit and don’t mind a tackle.
2. Get a new manager in so he has time to evaluate the squad and make plans for next season. Leaving it until May is far too late and will see yet another squad scraped together right up until deadline day, much like we saw this season and under Slade.
Whatever happens in the summer the plan has got be to see a squad put together just like we did in 2011, with the majority on 2/3 year contracts.
That squad had a great balance - a core of solid reliable players for this league (Jackson, Taylor, Hollands, Hayes), younger players on the up (Wiggins, Stepehens, Green, Evina), good undervalued players needing a move to rebuild their careers (Kermorgant, Morrison, Cort), include any academy players ready to step up (Solly, Wagstaff) and the odd experienced player as cover and as a good character around the squad (Hughes, Euell).
We don’t have that anything like that at the moment and it’s not going to be put together in this window.
Something isn’t right that’s for sure. I still think it’s pressure of expectations but in any case as far as I’m concerned every manager has the right to be given time to turn it around. Especially a manager who until just a few short weeks ago has been massively in credit in terms of loyalty and over achieving. In four weeks we’ll either still be in the hunt or dead and buried. I’m on the fence until then at least.
It seems that loyalty and respect count for absolutely f*** all these days mate.
I do however think that what kept Bowyer at the Club through the whole shit show, wasn't just loyalty from him, but also the fact he could cut his teeth in management in the no-lose situation he was in.
Still dont understand why he cant be given the benefit of doubt, from the fans, for at least the rest of this season though....
Because he can’t keep his mouth shut. I wouldn’t get rid because of results, I would get rid because of the harm his constant throwing under the bus comments are causing within the squad
Comments
If the manager is falling out with players because they are showing poor commitment, poor attitude, not following team instructions, difficult individuals etc then the problem is with the individuals. You hope it’s a small number, and you need to move them out asap.
If it’s wider reaching than that, if the collective of the experienced players genuinely believe the manager is either out of his depth, or religiously picking tactics that are not to the benefit of the team, or falling out with too much individuals unfairly, that’s more serious.
it’s not indefinite loyalty though. Things need to turn around quickly.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
Waiting until the Tuesday game is over won’t change the fact the players aren’t playing for him. It won’t take away the fact his man management this season has been juvenile. It won’t take away the ridiculous comments made about Williams, Maddison, Morgan, Bogle etc.
Do you really think that come Wednesday everything will be ok after 3 points?
Seemingly forgetting that they featured heavily in a side who'd taken 10 points from the previous 9 games.
A promotion squad is one that should have a real go at staying up in the Championship with some good additions made to it.
If you kept the squad together in the summer it’s nowhere near that. There are too many there that no Championship club would be interested in signing.
Charlton, Luton, Barnsley, Wigan, Hull, Middlesborough. Three of those clubs changed their manager and three didn't. Three of those got relegated and three didn't. Of course both ourselves and Wigan had excuses but Luton and Barnsley looked dead and buried.
I don't agree that if Bowyer goes our season is done. We still have a good chance of the play offs. If Bowyer has lost the dressing room, giving him until the end of the season isn't going to help because what he would need is a big change in squad numbers which he wouldn't be do now anyway. If he hasn't, he should absolutely be given the chance to turn it around.
At the moment no. He is also having a habit of falling out with some key players. I really want him to succeed but I can't see it at the moment. Maybe with Innis and Famewo and Shinnie back fit we'll get better and I'll be saying Bowyer is the man to get us back promoted. I think he has to change his way of thinking on approaching games. It's L1 and we're far too negative
The point is that all those players have played a level above where we are now - Matthews, Gunter & Williams all playing regular Championship football, as well as earning caps for Wales.
Church scored goals at Championship level and Levitt is rated by United. I trust their coaching staff to know a good player more than ours.
the fact is we got him which means we need to play him, he scored a beauty of a goal on boxing day and then he's dropped??
The current mix is toxic and if TS wants to get us out of this division at the first attempt with LB, he needs to back the decisions that need to be made and settle some out of the club if there are no takers.
I see no other way. The relationship LB has with those mentioned is clearly BROKEN.
"He's played in the Championship" probably still would be were he good enough.
"He's an international" so what. I often wonder how international teams would fair against domestic league teams. The likes of Wales i would guess, not very well.
Also that having been said. If he didn't have the salary restrictions and embargo like Powell. Things might be totally different.
From the rest of the team I don’t think 1 player makes either side.
I would love for him to work out this season but no manager has ever recovered once they have lost the dressing room (unless someone can give me an example?), and, for me, Bowyer clearly has.
These players are no playing for him, he is openly criticising them on a regular basis after games and there have been one or two tweets from players which had an undertone of upset which never happens in a happy dressing room.
For me, whilst sad, it is time to move on. It is easy for fans to say he has earned the season etc as we are not pumping £m's to fund a League One club.
Would like to see Cook but he looks likely to go to Sheff Weds, Howe is a pipe dream no point in discussing and despite their previous success I would be very nervous of Powell (very defensive and no real success since leaving us) or Curbs (out of management too long).
In recent appointments, we have done well letting a young manager take the reigns for the first time (Powell and Bowyer both led us to promotion) and whilst I doubt anyone else agrees, I would be interested to see how Pratley got on in a caretaker role if he wanted it, I think he has the makings of a fine manager.
2 years ago the likes of Grant (who left), Taylor, Bauer, Aribo would all have attracted attention in January
I do however think that what kept Bowyer at the Club through the whole shit show, wasn't just loyalty from him, but also the fact he could cut his teeth in management in the no-lose situation he was in.
Still dont understand why he cant be given the benefit of doubt, from the fans, for at least the rest of this season though....