Been a Bowyer apologist all season as I think he’s earned the right to see if he can get through this but perhaps it would be best for all concerned if we parted company. When Powell was sacked, despite him being a legend I didn’t feel upset as the football being played was dire. Too negative and no obvious pattern. Same with Parkinson to a lesser extent.
This squad has fallen in to a similar vein. For example last night the pundits could clearly point to Accrington’s pattern/shape/style. What was ours? What has ours been all season?? if you keep changing personnel and formations it’s no wonder players aren’t comfortable
On paper we might have good players but are they the right characters? I would like Bowyer to be given a full summer transfer window to rebuild the squad, this season is a write off for me now.
That’s the spirit.
Why? We aren’t even half way through yet?
The squad was cobbled together in a couple of weeks at the end of the summer window, we're not good enough to challenge.
I’m thinking more and more towards that.
A promotion squad is one that should have a real go at staying up in the Championship with some good additions made to it.
If you kept the squad together in the summer it’s nowhere near that. There are too many there that no Championship club would be interested in signing.
I tend to agree, I look at which of our players would get into either of our Promotion sides and for me there really aren’t many, you could make a case for Amos and Chuks but that’s about it. Famewo and Inniss looked promising too but I’d still prefer the Bauer and Pearce/Sarr combo or Morrison and Taylor.
From the rest of the team I don’t think 1 player makes either side.
On the summer window as well as we did, doing it so late is the difference between say signing Jonson Clarke-Harris and Omar Bogle. It made an even bigger difference this season with the salary cap coming into place part way through.
Clarke-Harris has 12 goals in 18 league starts. He signed in late August when we were still a month away from being taken over.
We need a plan for this summer so that we’re ready to go.
This doesn't sound like the Lee bowyer we all know.
I think something's happened.
I think he might be in a bad way on a personal level.
Maybe Jackson should hold the line for a while.
I'm glad that someone else said this because I've been thinking something like this for some time.
I suspect that he has been badly affected by the lack of fans. He's a kind of motivation manager and he gets his motivation from the fans, atmosphere and feel for the club. I bet he's lost that feeling and that energy that is an essential part of what drives him to the success that he's capable of.
People get affected differently by different circumstances. Covid19 is difficult for everyone but in different ways. Some people are more afraid, some more angry, some more depressed, some obviously are sick or have lost someone. For some it affects their lifestyle less than for others. Bows for example can't go fishing which I imagine is where he normally frees his mind from any negativity. This works for him just as other ways work, consciously or subconsciously, for others.
Whatever the case, people then react in different ways. Bows may be taking out his anger and frustration on the players. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager or a bad person. He's just having trouble coping which nowadays is called 'mental health issues.'
Do the club have a psychiatrist dealing with matters like these? I don't want Bows to go: I do wonder though if he should have a rest and have Jacki come in as temporary manager (I second Dave2I's suggestion)
The question ‘has the manager lost the dressing room’ is an important one, but in this case I think more seepertinent is ‘who in the dressing room has he lost’ and ‘why has he lost them?’.
If the manager is falling out with players because they are showing poor commitment, poor attitude, not following team instructions, difficult individuals etc then the problem is with the individuals. You hope it’s a small number, and you need to move them out asap.
If it’s wider reaching than that, if the collective of the experienced players genuinely believe the manager is either out of his depth, or religiously picking tactics that are not to the benefit of the team, or falling out with too much individuals unfairly, that’s more serious.
I’m not convinced what it is.
The injuries massively clouds it, the squad assembly in such a short time with the salary cap restrictions clouds it, the unique situation of no crowds clouds it.
Given the proven aspects we’ve had since he took over, and weighing up all those clouding aspects, that’s why I’m personally giving the benefit of doubt and the opportunity to turn it around. It’s very hard to bemoan lack of loyalty if you’re not prepared to give it yourself.
it’s not indefinite loyalty though. Things need to turn around quickly.
On the basis of performances recently from seasoned pros like Gunter and Pearce I'd suggest it's far reaching.
I agree on Injuries, but when your squad is largely made of glass I don't think digging them out in public is necessarily the best strategy.
Full faith in Bowyer still. This team is worse than the one we won the playoffs with two seasons ago. The man has worked absolute miracles until now and deserves time.
I go back to my comment after the Shrewsbury game. I heard a starting player last night say “Bowyer has fucking lost it”. He also said we never work tactics.
All of which is evident, tactically we’re so poor, no cohesion in that team and midfield run ragged every week.
I love you Bow, but it’s time now
Have heard from a friend of a friend who’s done some work for a senior player similar to what J BLOCK has said , no reason to not believe it so on that basis , he’s lost the dressing room and he should go
I go back to my comment after the Shrewsbury game. I heard a starting player last night say “Bowyer has fucking lost it”. He also said we never work tactics.
All of which is evident, tactically we’re so poor, no cohesion in that team and midfield run ragged every week.
I love you Bow, but it’s time now
Have heard from a friend of a friend who’s done some work for a senior player similar to what J BLOCK has said , no reason to not believe it so on that basis , he’s lost the dressing room and he should go
I am equally losing patience with tactics but I really do think we need to get Famewo, Innis and Shinnie back before we go making any serious decisions. I dont care about running out of time. I think we have been completely blinded by Sandgaards optimism in thinking promotion is a foregone conclusion, we of all sets of supporters know it is not as simple as that! I do think it is our Thomas and some of our fans who need bringing back down to earth as refreshing as his optimism is.
I think one huge problem is that for the previous two seasons, whether we like it or not...Bowyer has built a team around a spine ie. Cullen, Lyle (spit), Karlan (for a bit), Dillon (not discounting Amos) Bauer and Pearce. Even during that period, we never played brilliantly for a prolonged period of time (bar the final 7/8 games of the playoff winning season).
BUT and I really do think this is a big BUT....during the period this season where we went on the winning run with clean sheets, we still didnt look that great IMO but what we did look, was organised. Yes, Bowyer has made a lot of changes (57 this season I think it said last night) but that was to be expected as he finds his strongest side. Additionally losing the two centre backs at the same time and having to chop and change midfielders round to fill in has not given Bow a chance to really find consistency in a lineup!
I would understand if Thomas got rid of Bowyer but that would only be in line with his over-optimism. I think this a more important period for Thomas. I would have a lot more respect for him if he gave Bowyer this season to have a crack (as some have already suggested)! If he gets rid now then I would only put Thomas in line with every other average owner out there with plenty of dough lining their pockets!
Full faith in Bowyer still. This team is worse than the one we won the playoffs with two seasons ago. The man has worked absolute miracles until now and deserves time.
This is the conflict in my head for me. Absolutely deserves time but my fear is everything has gone south too quickly and can he turn it around
I’m not in that dressing room or on the training pitch so to form an opinion, all I’ve got to go on are performances and they’ve been poor. Add to that the recent calling out of individuals and general air of unrest (could be wrong on that), I’m left wondering if this is it
i take on board him being given time to get the best out of these players, the salary cap and the speed at which the squad came together, it’s just all so uninspiring at the moment. It’s also hard to watch.
I would be surprised if we go up this season based on how we’re playing. I know we need Inniss and Famewo back, but I have doubts about so many of our players. You could argue that it doesn’t matter who we have in charge on that basis, but I know a lot of people on here think this squad is good enough. In which case, could someone do better?
based on 20 games we’re not good enough so far and that’s half the season almost. It’s a tight league so of course it can change, but my head is already thinking this season isn’t going to happen and it would be good to ship quite a few on in the summer
Pearce Oshilaja Pratley Purrington JFC Gilbey Bogle One of Williams or Maddison Aneke
if we don’t start to make a change soon, is it that we have to face up to the fact we don’t have the talent? It’s all very confusing
I appreciate we have lost out 2 main CB's and that has made things difficult but the players that we have to cover are easily good enough to compete in this league. It seems to me that the more training the squad has the worse they are getting. Whether that's down to poor training methods or that the players are not buying into the plan I dont know but something is obviously very wrong and if I were LB and felt the need to say live on television that we wouldnt have played like that with pratley and watson in the team I would be very worried. I cant see him turning this around he is alienating too many players and we cant just replace them due to spending caps etc. The players he is digging out will end up getting him the sack. It happened to Mourinho and many before him, LB is treading a very dangerous path imo
The question ‘has the manager lost the dressing room’ is an important one, but in this case I think more pertinent is ‘who in the dressing room has he lost’ and ‘why has he lost them?’.
If the manager is falling out with players because they are showing poor commitment, poor attitude, not following team instructions, difficult individuals etc then the problem is with the individuals. You hope it’s a small number, and you need to move them out asap.
If it’s wider reaching than that, if the collective of the experienced players genuinely believe the manager is either out of his depth, or religiously picking tactics that are not to the benefit of the team, or falling out with too much individuals unfairly, that’s more serious.
I’m not convinced what it is.
The injuries massively clouds it, the squad assembly in such a short time with the salary cap restrictions clouds it, the unique situation of no crowds clouds it.
Given the proven aspects we’ve had since he took over, and weighing up all those clouding aspects, that’s why I’m personally giving the benefit of doubt and the opportunity to turn it around. It’s very hard to bemoan lack of loyalty if you’re not prepared to give it yourself.
it’s not indefinite loyalty though. Things need to turn around quickly.
But it isn’t just him falling out “because they are showing poor commitment, poor attitude, not following team instructions, difficult individuals” he’s literally said he doesn’t care if one of our players has sustained a serious injury - you can’t just ignore something like that. He may have said it in the heat of the moment post game, but he still said it.
Additionally as to “ who in the dressing room has he lost’” - it isn’t just the players that he’s publicly slated that have gone downhill, it’s almost all of them. That says to me that even if Bowyer’s ultra-aggressive management style isn’t demotivating all of the squad it isn’t motivating any of them. Motivating the squad to maximise their collective ability is pretty much the main part of his job so that is an enormous concern to me.
The route 1 goal scored by Stanley and assisted by Pearce is the type of goal that is scored in the under 11's. It shouldn't be seen in pro football.
My team scored plenty of goals like that because I had two sprinters up front who cashed in on sloppy back passes.
My defenders were told to put the ball as far away from the keeper as possible in a similar situation. Give away a throw in or a corner But never put the keeper under pressure on the poor pitches we had to play on.
It's child's play.
Christmas is over but we are still giving away gifts.
Disgraceful thing for Bowyer to say about a player. Will have lost him a lot of respect in the dressing room. Could even make it harder to sign players. His job security will always be about results though.
Cliche I know but football is a results business. Bowyer or any manager can say or do whatever they like within reason of course provided the results are good. Once that stops the supporter love in stops and scrutiny begins. He wins the next three and this will be swept under the collective carpet but if this shitty run continues then he might well be in trouble.
Williams looked like a petrified child when he come on last night. If you’ve got a manager that you feel is gonna tear into you if you make a mistake then you won’t enjoy your football.
Disgraceful thing for Bowyer to say about a player. Will have lost him a lot of respect in the dressing room. Could even make it harder to sign players. His job security will always be about results though.
If anything, it’s a timely reminder to the players that he is the manager and if he thinks somebody isn’t pulling their weight he is going to let them know. If they can’t respect that then we probably don’t want them in the charlton dressing room, let alone in the pitch
Cliche I know but football is a results business. Bowyer or any manager can say or do whatever they like within reason of course provided the results are good. Once that stops the supporter love in stops and scrutiny begins. He wins the next three and this will be swept under the collective carpet but if this shitty run continues then he might well be in trouble.
I agree but for me and many others it seems, it’s not just the results that are costing him. Personally if we were trying hard and losing, I would 100% be in the give him time camp. That would be the case even if I was still questioning his tactics and he was playing players out of position. Like I say, it looks as though many fans feel he is losing (if not already has lost) the dressing room which is much worse than a few bad results.
Disgraceful thing for Bowyer to say about a player. Will have lost him a lot of respect in the dressing room. Could even make it harder to sign players. His job security will always be about results though.
If anything, it’s a timely reminder to the players that he is the manager and if he thinks somebody isn’t pulling their weight he is going to let them know. If they can’t respect that then we probably don’t want them in the charlton dressing room, let alone in the pitch
Probably the greatest manager in British football was Alex Ferguson. He was passionate about defending all his players publicly and kept the hair dryer for the dressing room. If you can’t learn from Alex Ferguson about player management then you are in bother.
I have to question JJ’s role too. I fear he is a bit of a ‘yes man’ and that Bows won’t listen to anyone anyway which, for me, makes for a very weak management team. The team that went out should have been too much for an average League 1 side in Accrington. It says it all that they sit in the playoff places now and we don’t.
It’s a shame but it is already looking bleak this year, like last year but at a much lower standard. Good start again but we have lost our way and don’t look capable of winning a match. Frustrating to see but, sadly, I feel that Bows is not the man for the job any more.
I feel bad saying that given the loyalty he has shown us but, frankly, we can’t afford to languish in league 1 so either the tide turns, starting on Tuesday, or Tommy is going to need to have some difficult conversations and decisions made.
I still feel it odd that the thing that wound Bowyer up most was Maddison jumping out of a tackle, as it didn't cost us anything as we were 2-0 down anyway
It's akin to publicly slagging off a batsman (say KP) for getting out to an aggressive shot for 15, when nobody else got more than 10.
Disgraceful thing for Bowyer to say about a player. Will have lost him a lot of respect in the dressing room. Could even make it harder to sign players. His job security will always be about results though.
If anything, it’s a timely reminder to the players that he is the manager and if he thinks somebody isn’t pulling their weight he is going to let them know. If they can’t respect that then we probably don’t want them in the charlton dressing room, let alone in the pitch
Probably the greatest manager in British football was Alex Ferguson. He was passionate about defending all his players publicly and kept the hair dryer for the dressing room. If you can’t learn from Alex Ferguson about player management then you are in bother.
Exactly, anyone that’s ever played football knows when you’ve had a shit game, you know what’s coming from the gaffer and you try and turn it around the following week. You do not need him selling you down the river to the media, it does absolutely no good at all. It makes the manager look desperate and a complete cock. You deal with it in house to protect the individual and the team. Such piss poor management and comes across very amateurish. I really hope that Bowyer has apologised to Maddison this morning and they can both move on from it, but I’m beginning to think that maybe Lee hasn’t grown up as much as we believed.
We are hearing rumours about a lost dressing room - if we get confirmation of that then it is proof that we face the binary choice that I mentioned last week.
So what would you rather do:
1. Stay loyal to LB and write this season off (we are only going in one direction and LB won't change course) 2. Throw the dice and possibly end up with a stab at promotion (there is absolutely no guarantee of this)
Disgraceful thing for Bowyer to say about a player. Will have lost him a lot of respect in the dressing room. Could even make it harder to sign players. His job security will always be about results though.
If anything, it’s a timely reminder to the players that he is the manager and if he thinks somebody isn’t pulling their weight he is going to let them know. If they can’t respect that then we probably don’t want them in the charlton dressing room, let alone in the pitch
To this dross Isay one thing..Respect is very much a two way street and like Brexit 27 versus 1 has only one outcome.
Comments
if you keep changing personnel and formations it’s no wonder players aren’t comfortable
Clarke-Harris has 12 goals in 18 league starts. He signed in late August when we were still a month away from being taken over.
We need a plan for this summer so that we’re ready to go.
I suspect that he has been badly affected by the lack of fans. He's a kind of motivation manager and he gets his motivation from the fans, atmosphere and feel for the club. I bet he's lost that feeling and that energy that is an essential part of what drives him to the success that he's capable of.
People get affected differently by different circumstances. Covid19 is difficult for everyone but in different ways. Some people are more afraid, some more angry, some more depressed, some obviously are sick or have lost someone. For some it affects their lifestyle less than for others. Bows for example can't go fishing which I imagine is where he normally frees his mind from any negativity. This works for him just as other ways work, consciously or subconsciously, for others.
Whatever the case, people then react in different ways. Bows may be taking out his anger and frustration on the players. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager or a bad person. He's just having trouble coping which nowadays is called 'mental health issues.'
Do the club have a psychiatrist dealing with matters like these? I don't want Bows to go: I do wonder though if he should have a rest and have Jacki come in as temporary manager (I second Dave2I's suggestion)
I agree on Injuries, but when your squad is largely made of glass I don't think digging them out in public is necessarily the best strategy.
I think one huge problem is that for the previous two seasons, whether we like it or not...Bowyer has built a team around a spine ie. Cullen, Lyle (spit), Karlan (for a bit), Dillon (not discounting Amos) Bauer and Pearce. Even during that period, we never played brilliantly for a prolonged period of time (bar the final 7/8 games of the playoff winning season).
BUT and I really do think this is a big BUT....during the period this season where we went on the winning run with clean sheets, we still didnt look that great IMO but what we did look, was organised. Yes, Bowyer has made a lot of changes (57 this season I think it said last night) but that was to be expected as he finds his strongest side. Additionally losing the two centre backs at the same time and having to chop and change midfielders round to fill in has not given Bow a chance to really find consistency in a lineup!
I would understand if Thomas got rid of Bowyer but that would only be in line with his over-optimism. I think this a more important period for Thomas. I would have a lot more respect for him if he gave Bowyer this season to have a crack (as some have already suggested)! If he gets rid now then I would only put Thomas in line with every other average owner out there with plenty of dough lining their pockets!
Croydon, for somebody that I presume is surrounded by Concrete this is a very good post !
I’m not in that dressing room or on the training pitch so to form an opinion, all I’ve got to go on are performances and they’ve been poor. Add to that the recent calling out of individuals and general air of unrest (could be wrong on that), I’m left wondering if this is it
i take on board him being given time to get the best out of these players, the salary cap and the speed at which the squad came together, it’s just all so uninspiring at the moment. It’s also hard to watch.
based on 20 games we’re not good enough so far and that’s half the season almost. It’s a tight league so of course it can change, but my head is already thinking this season isn’t going to happen and it would be good to ship quite a few on in the summer
Pearce
Oshilaja
Pratley
Purrington
JFC
Gilbey
Bogle
One of Williams or Maddison
Aneke
if we don’t start to make a change soon, is it that we have to face up to the fact we don’t have the talent? It’s all very confusing
I cant see him turning this around he is alienating too many players and we cant just replace them due to spending caps etc. The players he is digging out will end up getting him the sack. It happened to Mourinho and many before him, LB is treading a very dangerous path imo
It shouldn't be seen in pro football.
My team scored plenty of goals like that because I had two sprinters up front who cashed in on sloppy back passes.
My defenders were told to put the ball as far away from the keeper as possible in a similar situation. Give away a throw in or a corner But never put the keeper under pressure on the poor pitches we had to play on.
It's child's play.
Christmas is over but we are still giving away gifts.
I feel bad saying that given the loyalty he has shown us but, frankly, we can’t afford to languish in league 1 so either the tide turns, starting on Tuesday, or Tommy is going to need to have some difficult conversations and decisions made.
It's akin to publicly slagging off a batsman (say KP) for getting out to an aggressive shot for 15, when nobody else got more than 10.
So what would you rather do:
1. Stay loyal to LB and write this season off (we are only going in one direction and LB won't change course)
2. Throw the dice and possibly end up with a stab at promotion (there is absolutely no guarantee of this)
This is the stark reality of where we are, IMHO.
So, what's it to be? 1 or 2?