There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
Of course - transitioning alone won't make anyone a world beater. Along side physicality, you also have to have all of the other attributes that make up an elite athlete - mental strength, work ethic, inherent ability etc.
Maybe Maxine is lacking on one of these other attributes?
There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
Of course - transitioning alone won't make anyone a world beater. Along side physicality, you also have to have all of the other attributes that make up an elite athlete - mental strength, work ethic, inherent ability etc.
Maybe Maxine is lacking on one of these other attributes?
Maybe - but in that case it suddenly doesn't seem quite so 'unfair', does it?
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
This issue has been rumbling on for a while. I recommend the science in sport podcast and following Ross Tucker on Twitter as he has some great insight.
it is essentially an issue where ethics and politics and science are running up against one another. From a pure science point of view there are clear arguments against her competing fairly but decisions are not made purely from a science standpoint.
My personal view is that trans sport categories could fit into Paralympic arena as they are, uniquely able to design categories to limit unfairness due to physical issues. However I accept that opens up issues of saying trans athletes are disabled which is not the case.
Ultimately there is no straightforward solution here and some people will be pissed off whatever the outcome.
This is obviously more of a controversial subject in solo power sports than in more skill-based team sports, though. This example is the big South Park cliche of the stacked trans woman muscling in on the cis women's patch. But trans women in sports will be a much more nuanced and hopefully natural fit in future.
Of course, things will really start getting interesting when either cis or trans women are good enough to play top level men's sport...
There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
How fair is it for Hannah Mouncey to play women's Australian Rules football?
She is 6 foot 2, size 15 feet and transitioned at 26.
I have no idea but it's got to be the same rules for both hasn't it?
My sympathy is for the women who we're born female and grew and trained as a female to reach the top of their chosen sport only to have a trans person with an obvious advantage be allowed to compete against them. Don't seem right to me.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
Puberty and having a lifetime of testosterone are huge parts of the nuance with this subject. If Eddie Hall transitioned tomorrow and started fighting in women's mma, it'd be a bit different to someone that transitioned pre puberty.
There are examples that are less 'unfair' than this. Take Maxine Blythin, who transitioned before male puberty, and who's a good county player but not quite England-ready. She was briefly sniped at by the terf brigade when she won Kent's player of the year, but if she has such 'unfair advantages', why isn't she playing for England, and why do all her teammates and opposition players seem to like her?
Puberty and having a lifetime of testosterone are huge parts of the nuance with this subject. If Eddie Hall transitioned tomorrow and started fighting in women's mma, it'd be a bit different to someone that transitioned pre puberty.
I agree that it's a part of it, yes. But then you have the same people arguing against trans women who've completed male puberty competing as women as those who say that children aren't capable of deciding to transition. For the record I think that children who experience lasting gender dysphoria should be given all the medical help they need
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
Saying some one will change their gender in order to compete is as ridiculous as saying some one would chop off a limp in order to compete in the paralympics.
A bit like saying some one would only come out as gay “for attention”. You realise their life would probably be a whole lot easier if they weren’t trans?
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.
Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
How about you post what you believe and let others do the same. Unless someone's inciting violence I think the mods can be given the afternoon off.
This thread is going to attract some massively transphobic comments so hopefully the mods will keep an eye.
Though I say that... when it comes to sport, I really don't know how to reconcile trans women competing when there appears to be an unequal playing field, with the evident social progress this signals. I understand a woman (as Hubbard is) competing as a woman - fair enough, but surely she recognises she in all probability has a genetic advantage inherently unavailable to the other competitors? After all, for example, she's 43 - 20 years older than the average age of an Olympic weightlifter.
I also want to get ahead of "men who aren't good enough will transition" - no, being trans is far more of an identity than just sport. Also, please don't misgender Hubbard (who goes by she/her).
Also, in the cases of Semenya and Chand - that they're not allowed to compete without suppressing testosterone levels is pretty appalling. Michael Phelps has always been labelled a genetic freak because he has some sort of thing that means he can build up more lactic acid with less pain, or something (not sure exactly what).
So Paddy do you think its fair she can compete?
I am espousing the old fashioned virtues of "fair play " rather than inclusivity.
You can't reconcile this in my view, you should reach a decision that is fairest to the majority...I don't feel that to be showing prejudice I just feel it's common sense and in the interests of most
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
I said the rest of the comment, about trans women not being real women, was the transphobic bit. I literally specifically said so. I am not saying it's transphobic to ask the question about trans women competing. So to quickly answer a couple of others -
@lolwray - I don't actually think it's fair, no. But I don't know what the solution is without either further marginalising a group that is subject to constant abuse and vitriol (in general, I don't mean to say it's constant on here or anything), or fundamentally changing what women's sports could look like.
@SantaClaus - posting what I like and letting others do the same is fine, but you know what? I'm allowed to respond, aren't I? Like I said, if I'd have seriously wanted the mods to intervene I'd have messaged one. I have not done so, so they are "having the afternoon off", mate.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.
Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.
Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.
Oh great, a handful of anecdotal evidence if I search specifically on google. What about hard data? Where’s the trend of this happening?
Many of the arguments against trans athletes, and trans people is identical to the rubbish said about homosexuals in the 20th century - that they’re perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters. It’s rubbish, with no hard evidence to back it up. It is exactly the same - as they’re an lgbtq group and it’s the exact same rubbish that was written about gay athletes.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.
Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.
So provide examples of where you believe this has happened.
Comments
Maybe Maxine is lacking on one of these other attributes?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
it is essentially an issue where ethics and politics and science are running up against one another. From a pure science point of view there are clear arguments against her competing fairly but decisions are not made purely from a science standpoint.
Of course, things will really start getting interesting when either cis or trans women are good enough to play top level men's sport...
She is 6 foot 2, size 15 feet and transitioned at 26.
I have no idea but it's got to be the same rules for both hasn't it?
Don't seem right to me.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
How about you post what you believe and let others do the same. Unless someone's inciting violence I think the mods can be given the afternoon off.
I am espousing the old fashioned virtues of "fair play " rather than inclusivity.
You can't reconcile this in my view, you should reach a decision that is fairest to the majority...I don't feel that to be showing prejudice I just feel it's common sense and in the interests of most
@lolwray - I don't actually think it's fair, no. But I don't know what the solution is without either further marginalising a group that is subject to constant abuse and vitriol (in general, I don't mean to say it's constant on here or anything), or fundamentally changing what women's sports could look like.
@SantaClaus - posting what I like and letting others do the same is fine, but you know what? I'm allowed to respond, aren't I? Like I said, if I'd have seriously wanted the mods to intervene I'd have messaged one. I have not done so, so they are "having the afternoon off", mate.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.