It's proper annoying though, because throughout this thread, people are getting in the sly semi-personalised digs against Leuth and I to undermine what we're saying or misrepresent what we're saying. This seemed like another example and I apologise for misinterpreting the fucking around.
But like more generally - I get it, we hold different views, we're the "wokesters" or whatever and people think we're batshit crazy leftie loonies, but then take apart what we say, and not the caricatures of our person that exist in the mind's eye.
Unfortunately, at the risk of being branded transphobic by someone who doesn't read before they reply, it's not as simple as that.
A surprising number of people have XX and develop hormonaly as a male and the other way round. This did lead to a significant number of wrongly failed sex tests in the Olympics.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.
What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
and this is where i personally lose sympathy with the trans argument as some trans people and some of their allies present it.
Not everyone who questions the role/position of transmen and transwomen is transphobic.
Many of those most uncomfortable with the positioning of trans-women and their rights are not the usual bigots (some of whom have predictably raised their heads on this thread) but feminists who see women's rights and spaces being eroded by demands, and they are often demands not requests, for unlimited access into female spaces (of which female sport is clearly one).
It's a difficult issue that requires a lot of reflection and re-thinking of long held prejudices on all sides. Dismissing transpeople as freaks or doing things for ulterior motives is no more helpful than labeling all people who question access for transpeople as TERFs (a stupid elitist term) or transphobic.
Personally, I know that when I see a transwomen in the street or on TV my initial reaction is "That's a bloke dressed up as a woman", that's my prejudice, but in the next instant I think "so what? It's their life and they can dress as they like. I wouldn't want them telling me how to dress so why the hell should I tell them or even care." That's me challenging my prejudgement/prejudice.
But as I quoted Wendell-Homes above "my fist's freedom ends where someone else's nose begins" or to put it another way I can do what I want until my actions impact on others but that swinging my fists or driving on the wrong side of the road. Or in this case competing in women's sport.
That’s a very well thought out post and I think resonates with the vast bulk of people.
agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
Mods pls
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?
But you are free to share your thoughts?
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.
Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.
Oh great, a handful of anecdotal evidence if I search specifically on google. What about hard data? Where’s the trend of this happening?
Many of the arguments against trans athletes, and trans people is identical to the rubbish said about homosexuals in the 20th century - that they’re perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters. It’s rubbish, with no hard evidence to back it up. It is exactly the same - as they’re an lgbtq group and it’s the exact same rubbish that was written about gay athletes.
That's nothing about anything I said or hinted at.
The argument, as you put it, about trans athletes is one of biological advantage. I have already said I don't know what the answer is. Because put simply there isn't an easy one. Nothing to do them being perverts, groomers, sly or tricksters.
Every athlete has a biological advantage - some swimmers have webbed feet which has been proven to give them an advantage - should they be banned from competing? There could be non trans atheletes that have the exact same biological advantages that a trans person supposedly has - should they be stopped from competing too?
I didn't fucking say she should be banded I said I don't know the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read the posts before spouting your prepared nonsense.
Nobody said you said she should be banned, I was simply asking a question - calm down.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.
What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.
Who did I accuse of what? No, I was saying what is the line you draw? Are you implying trans women are not women? Shouldn’t women be able to participate in women’s sports?
You’ve literally just said her daughter would be transphobic if she wasn’t happy competing against a trans woman?
That’s absolutely insane to suggest. That’s not a definition of transphobia, it’s just not wanting to compete against a competitor with a serious advantage.
I think you know as well as I do that the majority of trans women have superior biological composition. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact.
Its a shame because this is an interesting debate. As per usual though you are going to crucify others for not holding the same views as yourself.
Except that’s not what I said, was it? I said, if she was transphobic she’d have a problem with it. Are you saying a transphobe wouldn’t have a problem with competing with a trans person? Odd, but okay.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.
What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.
Who did I accuse of what? No, I was saying what is the line you draw? Are you implying trans women are not women? Shouldn’t women be able to participate in women’s sports?
You’ve literally just said her daughter would be transphobic if she wasn’t happy competing against a trans woman?
That’s absolutely insane to suggest. That’s not a definition of transphobia, it’s just not wanting to compete against a competitor with a serious advantage.
I think you know as well as I do that the majority of trans women have superior biological composition. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact.
Its a shame because this is an interesting debate. As per usual though you are going to crucify others for not holding the same views as yourself.
Except that’s not what I said, was it? I said, if she was transphobic she’d have a problem with it. Are you saying a transphobe wouldn’t have a problem with competing with a trans person? Odd, but okay.
I don’t know how you’re still allowed to post on this site in all honesty.
You know the point I’m making but are being deliberately difficult. Just because someone doesn’t want to compete against a trans woman does not make them transphobic.
Once again, try understanding people’s positions on it before you label them as something they obviously aren’t.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.
What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.
Who did I accuse of what? No, I was saying what is the line you draw? Are you implying trans women are not women? Shouldn’t women be able to participate in women’s sports?
You’ve literally just said her daughter would be transphobic if she wasn’t happy competing against a trans woman?
That’s absolutely insane to suggest. That’s not a definition of transphobia, it’s just not wanting to compete against a competitor with a serious advantage.
I think you know as well as I do that the majority of trans women have superior biological composition. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact.
Its a shame because this is an interesting debate. As per usual though you are going to crucify others for not holding the same views as yourself.
Except that’s not what I said, was it? I said, if she was transphobic she’d have a problem with it. Are you saying a transphobe wouldn’t have a problem with competing with a trans person? Odd, but okay.
I don’t know how you’re still allowed to post on this site in all honesty.
You know the point I’m making but are being deliberately difficult. Just because someone doesn’t want to compete against a trans woman does not make them transphobic.
Once again, try understanding people’s positions on it before you label them as something they obviously aren’t.
Again, it’s not what I said is it? Please try to understand some one’s post before you reply to them and essentially ask for them to be banned.
If one argument is that there is no advantage when someone has transitioned from one gender to the other, why do we not hear of female to male transgender people having an advantage? I can't think of any competitors that have made that journey, it's only ever male to female ones. Happy for someone to put me right on that if there are indeed some that have been successful to a high level in their chosen sport.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.
No-one has failed to qualify for the Olympics because Laurel Hubbard has been selected. The New Zealand weightlifting team is two and a half times more numerous than at the last Olympics: they're taking more weightlifters. Laurel Hubbard is part of a team, with team-mates, not an competitor who has taken someone else's place.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
I was watching the Tour of Italy (Cycling) on Eurosport a few weeks ago and instead of ads appearing when the cycling finished it went straight to women's weight lifting and the commentator said "welcome to the women's snatch event"
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.
No-one has failed to qualify for the Olympics because Laurel Hubbard has been selected. The New Zealand weightlifting team is two and a half times more numerous than at the last Olympics: they're taking more weightlifters. Laurel Hubbard is part of a team, with team-mates, not an competitor who has taken someone else's place.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
But weightlifters from every other country might once the competition begins.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.
What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
and this is where i personally lose sympathy with the trans argument as some trans people and some of their allies present it.
Not everyone who questions the role/position of transmen and transwomen is transphobic.
Many of those most uncomfortable with the positioning of trans-women and their rights are not the usual bigots (some of whom have predictably raised their heads on this thread) but feminists who see women's rights and spaces being eroded by demands, and they are often demands not requests, for unlimited access into female spaces (of which female sport is clearly one).
It's a difficult issue that requires a lot of reflection and re-thinking of long held prejudices on all sides. Dismissing transpeople as freaks or doing things for ulterior motives is no more helpful than labeling all people who question access for transpeople as TERFs (a stupid elitist term) or transphobic.
Personally, I know that when I see a transwomen in the street or on TV my initial reaction is "That's a bloke dressed up as a woman", that's my prejudice, but in the next instant I think "so what? It's their life and they can dress as they like. I wouldn't want them telling me how to dress so why the hell should I tell them or even care." That's me challenging my prejudgement/prejudice.
But as I quoted Wendell-Homes above "my fist's freedom ends where someone else's nose begins" or to put it another way I can do what I want until my actions impact on others but that swinging my fists or driving on the wrong side of the road. Or in this case competing in women's sport.
That’s a very well thought out post and I think resonates with the vast bulk of people.
i think you'll find that that is the case with nearly all my posts @Shootershillguru
If one argument is that there is no advantage when someone has transitioned from one gender to the other, why do we not hear of female to male transgender people having an advantage? I can't think of any competitors that have made that journey, it's only ever male to female ones. Happy for someone to put me right on that if there are indeed some that have been successful to a high level in their chosen sport.
Although only slightly related to this thread, and not in any way associated with gender transforming, it's interesting to note that women have coxed successfully 'men's' boat race crews and compete with men in horse-racing. In both these instances, women have a physiological advantage over men in those sports (specifically, lower mass).
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
A trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. It's insulting to both to suggest they are the same.
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
I started this thread because I really wanted to see if there was someone out there who could genuinely help me get my head around this issue.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
If we ignore it and say, ‘yeah crack on, welcome aboard’ when other competitors feel aggrieved then surely you are opening the door to breeding more transphobia?
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
Has allowing black competitors bred more racism? Has allowing gay competitors bred more homophobia? I don’t think it has.
The fact is - trans women are women. If you’re saying they shouldn’t compete because of a biological advantage, then where is the line drawn? If some one who was born a woman with higher muscle density not be allowed to compete either? If a swimmer is born with webbed feet, we know that to be a biological advantage, so should they be allowed to compete?
The line is drawn at trans women who should be able to compete equally and fairly with other trans women.
Its an interesting idea, but why should trans women be segregated like that? Should we segregate other athletes based on other factors? I mean, we have weight classes in boxing - is this the same thing?
Comments
But like more generally - I get it, we hold different views, we're the "wokesters" or whatever and people think we're batshit crazy leftie loonies, but then take apart what we say, and not the caricatures of our person that exist in the mind's eye.
A surprising number of people have XX and develop hormonaly as a male and the other way round. This did lead to a significant number of wrongly failed sex tests in the Olympics.
Though I guess (being made of straw and all) it's entirely possible they are in fact straw women.
But it just seems it has attracted those who would rather stick an oar in & be judgmental then actually come up with sensible adult conversation about a very difficult topic.
It doesn’t suddenly make you a transphobic is you feel this doesn’t sit right in the competitive world of sport. It makes you want to have a playing field as fairly as possible and to continue having a conversation about it until the issue is resolved for all those who want to compete.
It has to be spoken of, it has to be.
You know the point I’m making but are being deliberately difficult. Just because someone doesn’t want to compete against a trans woman does not make them transphobic.
Once again, try understanding people’s positions on it before you label them as something they obviously aren’t.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
Made me snigger
Sums up how I’m feeling on this thread.