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Energy Bills

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  • cabbles said:


    Hasn’t taken long for the narrative to change.  It won’t be long until it’s ‘you’re lucky to have the energy you have, and, energy is for lefties’ 
    Imagine being Kelvin MacKenzie and thinking you can take the moral high ground on anything.
    Imagine being Kelvin Mackenzie and not realising what a massive cunt you are.
    He’s also a Charlton fan, so Kelvin if you’re reading this what Dave said above is far more accurate than anything you have ever written in your whole career.
    ……or a QPR fan. 
  • Being reported that Truss is seriously considering a 5% cut to VAT saving an average household £1300 per year. How is this £1300 going to make enough difference when if the cap is not frozen we’re currently looking at yearly energy costs of £6000 pa in the spring.  It’s said this will cost £35 billion. Sounds like a cheap and insufficient intervention. 
  • edited August 2022
    I think it is a bit late for the VAT cut, should have been a few months back, but it is a tool to keep the economy going. As you observe though, it is a blunt tool in terms of dealing with the issue of energy bills where the price cap is the clear lever.
  • What other tools would people like to see used to help everyone out?

    windfall tax?
    lowering of the cap profit from 1.9%?
    Larger universal payment to households ?
    means tested payments to households? 
    VAT reduction ? 
    income tax reduction,?
  • MrOneLung said:
    What other tools would people like to see used to help everyone out?

    windfall tax?
    lowering of the cap profit from 1.9%?
    Larger universal payment to households ?
    means tested payments to households? 
    VAT reduction ? 
    income tax reduction,?
    This new price cap to be scrapped. Windfall tax.
  • Scarp the latest price cap - cap the cap. 

    Paid for by windfall tax and income tax raise on salaries over 150k 
  • MrOneLung said:
    What other tools would people like to see used to help everyone out?

    windfall tax?
    lowering of the cap profit from 1.9%?
    Larger universal payment to households ?
    means tested payments to households? 
    VAT reduction ? 
    income tax reduction,?
    VAT reduction, windfall tax and means tested payments to households for me. 
  • 5p off vat doesn’t help enough if you can’t pay your bills - same with income tax cut. 

    The only way to control Energy cost inflation is to control the cost of energy.


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  • How comes Prince William can get pegged but the price cap can’t?
  • Huskaris said:
    VAT is actually a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay a higher proportion of it in terms of their income, at least, that is the argument I remember people criticising the government about in 2011 when they raised it to 20%. Although to be fair I am sure that they can do nothing right in many people's eyes. Too invested in disliking them. 

    Reducing VAT is a good thing to do to help the poorest. It isn't enough though. It also helps businesses, which is also good. 

    It will need to also be met with targeted support to those most in need with energy bills though. 
    Reducing VAT will not help the poorest, it will however help those who are able to afford 'luxuries' like eating out, entertainment, holidays and consumer goods, most of which are out of reach of the lowest paid.

  • Windfall tax on all businesses making huge profits, higher tax for those top earners who have the broadest shoulders, increased tax on unearned income, increase tax thresholds which are ridiculously low, increase minimum wage as nobody working full time should be in the position of needing to claim benefit.
  • 5p off vat doesn’t help enough if you can’t pay your bills - same with income tax cut. 

    The only way to control Energy cost inflation is to control the cost of energy.


    Hopefully it is the "and" rather than the "or"
  • Huskaris said:
    Huskaris said:
    VAT is actually a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay a higher proportion of it in terms of their income, at least, that is the argument I remember people criticising the government about in 2011 when they raised it to 20%. Although to be fair I am sure that they can do nothing right in many people's eyes. Too invested in disliking them. 

    Reducing VAT is a good thing to do to help the poorest. It isn't enough though. It also helps businesses, which is also good. 

    It will need to also be met with targeted support to those most in need with energy bills though. 
    Reducing VAT will not help the poorest, it will however help those who are able to afford 'luxuries' like eating out, entertainment, holidays and consumer goods, most of which are out of reach of the lowest paid.

    Sorry, reducing VAT does help the poorest, they spend a higher proportion of both income, and disposable income on VAT than their richer equivalents. 

    If VAT was being increased, I am sure there would be plenty on here stating that point. 

    Don't just take it from me though, take it from a source that hopefully most of those with their usual axes to grind can listen to, the European Parliament. 

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/workingpapers/econ/pdf/103_en.pdf

    I'm sorry, this is simple economics and to argue otherwise will be done purely from a position of either willing or unwilling ignorance. Take your pick.
    If you can't afford to pay your energy bills, how are you going to be able to afford the goods that attract VAT? A VAT cut isn't going to help people who can't afford to spend money on anything but the basics, most of which don't attract VAT.
  • edited August 2022
    Reducing VAT is a different tool to solve a different problem which I think needs solving too. If inflation is 10% and rising, cutting VAT surely has a lesser impact on Government receipts and in fact could potentialy have a positive impact as the economy is kept going a bit like cheaper tickets at Charlton can make more money because of larger crowds.

    But the energy price rises is beyond that with crazy numbers being provided and the way they are arrived at makes them reliable crazy numbers. You need to freeze the cap to deal with these and aligned with a VAT cut, it could help steer us through this major crisis.
  • Huskaris said:
    VAT is actually a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay a higher proportion of it in terms of their income, at least, that is the argument I remember people criticising the government about in 2011 when they raised it to 20%. Although to be fair I am sure that they can do nothing right in many people's eyes. Too invested in disliking them. 

    Reducing VAT is a good thing to do to help the poorest. It isn't enough though. It also helps businesses, which is also good. 

    It will need to also be met with targeted support to those most in need with energy bills though. 
    Reducing VAT will not help the poorest, it will however help those who are able to afford 'luxuries' like eating out, entertainment, holidays and consumer goods, most of which are out of reach of the lowest paid.

    Arguable that it will keep a lot of the lowest paid in jobs tho.
  • Huskaris said:
    VAT is actually a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay a higher proportion of it in terms of their income, at least, that is the argument I remember people criticising the government about in 2011 when they raised it to 20%. Although to be fair I am sure that they can do nothing right in many people's eyes. Too invested in disliking them. 

    Reducing VAT is a good thing to do to help the poorest. It isn't enough though. It also helps businesses, which is also good. 

    It will need to also be met with targeted support to those most in need with energy bills though. 
    Reducing VAT will not help the poorest, it will however help those who are able to afford 'luxuries' like eating out, entertainment, holidays and consumer goods, most of which are out of reach of the lowest paid.

    Arguable that it will keep a lot of the lowest paid in jobs tho.
    It may do that yes, but it isn't going to provide much help for low paid people pay their bills.  

    If you can't afford to buy a product which has a VAT cut, you are not going to benefit from that VAT cut. 

    Businesses don't have to pass on the VAT cut anyway, as frequently happened when VAT was cut as part of the Covid relief. 
  • Surely if the government don’t cap energy prices properly it will have a hugely negative effect on business. All of the business that is expected to help the countries growth.  If their energy bills are going up by 100-300 % in the future they either go bust or pass those rises onto the consumer , which makes a 5% vat deduction completely ineffective. 
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  • edited August 2022
    Huskaris said:
    VAT is actually a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay a higher proportion of it in terms of their income, at least, that is the argument I remember people criticising the government about in 2011 when they raised it to 20%. Although to be fair I am sure that they can do nothing right in many people's eyes. Too invested in disliking them. 

    Reducing VAT is a good thing to do to help the poorest. It isn't enough though. It also helps businesses, which is also good. 

    It will need to also be met with targeted support to those most in need with energy bills though. 
    Reducing VAT will not help the poorest, it will however help those who are able to afford 'luxuries' like eating out, entertainment, holidays and consumer goods, most of which are out of reach of the lowest paid.

    Arguable that it will keep a lot of the lowest paid in jobs tho.
    It may do that yes, but it isn't going to provide much help for low paid people pay their bills.  

    If you can't afford to buy a product which has a VAT cut, you are not going to benefit from that VAT cut. 

    Businesses don't have to pass on the VAT cut anyway, as frequently happened when VAT was cut as part of the Covid relief. 
    That is a good point. If they have higher expenses, which they will have, they may try to absorb them using the cut. Of course there is a point where people won't buy their product. It probably needs very tight management and a hands on chancellor.
  • Children need clothes which are VAT exempt.

  • This is the reality for a lot of small businesses, just coming out of the pandemic (and dealing with that other thing we aren't allowed to mention)...

    A 5% VAT cut ain't going to touch the sides without further help or action from the government.

  • As a matter of interest, without looking it up or mentioning their name on here, how many posters could name the current Energy Minister?
  • bobmunro said:
    As a matter of interest, without looking it up or mentioning their name on here, how many posters could name the current Energy Minister?

    Isn't it the chairman of BP?
    I am sure if you look in his pocket you will find him. 
  • I suppose the mass reduction in energy use by the desperate this winter will have a beneficial effect on the climate crisis.
    Those in power might look at street sleepers and declare ‘energy costs are not a problem for them, so it shouldn’t be a problem for anybody else’.
  • This is the reality for a lot of small businesses, just coming out of the pandemic (and dealing with that other thing we aren't allowed to mention)...

    A 5% VAT cut ain't going to touch the sides without further help or action from the government.

    The way businesses get contracts was a real eye opener.  They are even more exposed than residential.  Many will have no choice but to fold which will add even more pressure to an economy predicted to be in recession all of next year.  

    I don’t mean to keep taking it back to the government, but this should be being treated in the same way we did the pandemic.  An absolute emergency.  This pissing around talking about Macron in a hustings is irrelevant.  If I were in Truss’ circle of advisors, presuming she wins, I would be saying that unless she gets working on this now, she’s going to face the most uncomfortable of any opening I think an incoming new leader has faced in a long time.  She will pretty much inherit zoo oak unrest and potential riots imo.  
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