Heat Pumps

Raith_C_Chattonell

Gas boilers are likely to be outlawed by 2035.

Boris is pushing the agenda and his green credentials in offering a £5K grant to install one.  I think it is a rather excessive burden on public funds in this time where the country is skint and the population about to feel a huge hike in the cost of living.  The thing is the 5K will most likely only benefit the better off anyway.

Coupled with this, I heard an expert on the radio this morning saying that with larger radiators they hope to achieve a temperature of 21 degrees on installation.  Hope to achieve?  I would think an awful lot of people would want at least that.  

Anyway the first video I checked out on Youtube is this guy who seemed to know his stuff, he didn't seem very impressed, and no one can argue about those ugly, noisy prone units on the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

KielyNumber1

If we wait til we feel we can afford to fix Global warming then nothing will get done. This should be one small part of a bigger wider effort.

AndyG

I'm not wishing to get into a political debate re this latest statement.

However if anyone on here would like genuine advice re Heat Pumps then drop me a line. Like most fast developing markets the cowboys will be entering it. My business has been installing heat pumps for 8 years now and we are the largest installer in the country in terms of numbers of installs per year.

I will also say I'm not looking for business we are firmly based in the NW and would not install in most of your areas. Just offering free honest advice if anyone wishes it as these schemes evolve over the next few years

Chizz

Just to reassure you @Raith_C_Chattonell there is nothing in the proposed offering that compels you to get a new boiler, to install a heat pump or to take any positive action to prevent further climate change at all.  You don't have to do it.  

MrOneLung

It is a no from me.

Chunes

Things have to change. Some of that change will have to be hard. If we can always find trillions for wars abroad, I'm sure we can find money for this.

micks1950

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

Gas boilers are likely to be outlawed by 2035.

Boris is pushing the agenda and his green credentials in offering a £5K grant to install one.  I think it is a rather excessive burden on public funds in this time where the country is skint and the population about to feel a huge hike in the cost of living.  The thing is the 5K will most likely only benefit the better off anyway.

Coupled with this, I heard an expert on the radio this morning saying that with larger radiators they hope to achieve a temperature of 21 degrees on installation.  Hope to achieve?  I would think an awful lot of people would want at least that.  

Anyway the first video I checked out on Youtube is this guy who seemed to know his stuff, he didn't seem very impressed, and no one can argue about those ugly, noisy prone units on the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

I watched the first couple of minutes of the video & I'm not sure where his numbers come from.

He's talking about £11+ billion to incentivise people to install heat pumps, but what's seems to have been announced today is 90.000 grants of £5K to be paid out at 30,000 per year for 3 years beginning next year, which I think totals £450m rather than £11 billion?

A lot of money but 90,000 is only a drop in the ocean in terms of the number of households who would need to change their boilers to make a difference?

Swisdom

He looks as though Boris is believing the hype of heat pumps. For the last 10 years I’ve been loosely working with these things in my last job. They are advertised I have a COP (coefficient of power) of 3 to 1 meaning that for everyone unit of power (kWh) used to generate three units. It’s a load of bollocks and they cost a fortune in the first place.
we have been saying for years that existing properties are the issue and newbuild properties are not anywhere near the problem. Yes we need to improve installation, yes we need to find better sources to heat our properties. But heat pumps or not the way

McBobbin

Maybe these microwave boilers will be the next big thing

https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/trade/blog/microwave-boilers/

carly burn

Ground source heat pumps (borehole) are pretty reliable. I've been involved with these in an industrial level for the past few years.
Not sure how many of you would want to/will be allowed to drill a 100m+ hole in your garden though?

Not sure about air source? I think the low grade heat in the ground is far more reliable than heat in the air.

Raith_C_Chattonell

The main thrust of my point was the governments plan to allot 450 million pounds in taxpayers money to 90,000 house holders to drop their boiler in favour of a heat pump. These people by definition will be better off as they will have the further 5 or 6 extra grand spare in order to do it.  With energy prices, container prices and everything else going up the cost of living is set to go through the roof and with it the levels of poverty.  I thought there could be better use of that public money especially at this particular time.

The second point was I surprised to hear Chris Higgs the manager of Freedom Heat pumps on 'Wake Up To Money' this morning say that they aim to achieve a room temperature of 20 or 21 degrees on installation. That's kinda ok, but not great.  A lot of pensioners would have to get their convector heaters out of the loft for a top up if that is the case.

I am more than willing to be corrected by AndyG 

Hal1x

Ive produced quite a few hot pumps today funily enough, perhaps we all need to just go on a all curry diet, and we could just give our government vouchers direct to the Curry Houses.

razil

I've been looking at this recently, and the cost was in the teens K, however gov pay you back a grant over 7 years making the overall cost around 5k as far as I know that scheme is ending in March. Not sure how this 5k grant mentioned today works.

AndyG

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

The main thrust of my point was the governments plan to allot 450 million pounds in taxpayers money to 90,000 house holders to drop their boiler in favour of a heat pump. These people by definition will be better off as they will have the further 5 or 6 extra grand spare in order to do it.  With energy prices, container prices and everything else going up the cost of living is set to go through the roof and with it the levels of poverty.  I thought there could be better use of that public money especially at this particular time.

The second point was I surprised to hear Chris Higgs the manager of Freedom Heat pumps on 'Wake Up To Money' this morning say that they aim to achieve a room temperature of 20 or 21 degrees on installation. That's kinda ok, but not great.  A lot of pensioners would have to get their convector heaters out of the loft for a top up if that is the case.

I am more than willing to be corrected by AndyG 

Mate the media is not reporting the full extent tbh it isnt really their fault as alot of things havent been released yet. However a few key points.
The installation costs being quoted are ridiculous. My business has installed 800+ heatpumps a tear for the last 4 years and the most I have ever charged is just over £11k and that was for a big house. The vast majority of installs we charge between £5.5k and £8.5k. What isnt being reported is this £5k is only part of the funding there is additional funding coming in before April which will mean heat pumps, solar, insulation etc will be free to most unless ofcourse you are particularly well off then know that case perhaps it shouldn't be totally free anyway.
The issue is that there just isnt the skill sets out there with people who know what they are doing to fit heat pumps to be efficient. The person who said earlier that the claim is they work at a 3-1 ratio in terms of efficiency and it was bollox, well I can vouch that if they are specified correctly and installed, programmed correctly 3.5 should be the minimum. As i said there are alot of engineers who have no clue. I have over 30 heat pump engineers and they cost me a fortune to train to be able to install correctly.
All i can say is we have to do something to slow emissions and this is one part of it there are many hurdles the main one isnt funding it is.
The electricity grid at the moment cant cope with the potential demand.
The manufacturers are not geared up to produce the volumes required.
There just isnt the number of skilled installers to fit them all

Slartibartfast

Hi AndyG, Are there any shares available in your company? :-)

AndyG

Slartibartfast said:

Hi AndyG, Are there any shares available in your company? :-)

Haha no mate sorry I'm holding out for British gas to come calling with their cheque book 😂😂😂

Fortune 82nd Minute

@AndyG

Appreciate your comments on 4 things being banded about a lot.

1) You can't fit a heat pump to a house with a single brick skin. Given most houses built between the 2 wars (and pre 1914) are that construction isn't that a slight concern?

2) They are incredibly noisy. Will they drive your neighbours mad? 

3) They don't give out as much heat as gas central heating and houses are cold and require additional heating.

4) They take up an enormous amount of space. 

AndyG

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

@AndyG

Appreciate your comments on 4 things being banded about a lot.

1) You can't fit a heat pump to a house with a single brick skin. Given most houses built between the 2 wars (and pre 1914) are that construction isn't that a slight concern?

It depends on the heat loss of the individual property. But you are correct in alot of cases these houses will need to be insulated either externally or internally

2) They are incredibly noisy. Will they drive your neighbours mad? 

It depends on the unit installed, most large manufacturers such as vaillant, Mitsubishi have units that are no louder than a fridge, not heard in most applications. But again you are correct some sound like buses so best avoid

3) They don't give out as much heat as gas central heating and houses are cold and require additional heating.
They do provide the same heat the difference is the flow temperature of the water in the heating circuit, to be most efficient the flow temperature of a heat pump needs to be 40 degrees. This does mean the radiators are not as hot but as you never turn a heat pump off they dont need to be
4) They take up an enormous amount of space. 

I suppose it depends on what space you have, an average outdoor unit is approx 1.2 mtrs high, 1 mtr wide and 400mm deep. You do need to have 300mm space behind it and a minimum of 1 mtr infront to allow airflow. Most places have that somewhere

Raith_C_Chattonell

AndyG said:

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

The main thrust of my point was the governments plan to allot 450 million pounds in taxpayers money to 90,000 house holders to drop their boiler in favour of a heat pump. These people by definition will be better off as they will have the further 5 or 6 extra grand spare in order to do it.  With energy prices, container prices and everything else going up the cost of living is set to go through the roof and with it the levels of poverty.  I thought there could be better use of that public money especially at this particular time.

The second point was I surprised to hear Chris Higgs the manager of Freedom Heat pumps on 'Wake Up To Money' this morning say that they aim to achieve a room temperature of 20 or 21 degrees on installation. That's kinda ok, but not great.  A lot of pensioners would have to get their convector heaters out of the loft for a top up if that is the case.

I am more than willing to be corrected by AndyG 

Mate the media is not reporting the full extent tbh it isnt really their fault as alot of things havent been released yet. However a few key points.
The installation costs being quoted are ridiculous. My business has installed 800+ heatpumps a tear for the last 4 years and the most I have ever charged is just over £11k and that was for a big house. The vast majority of installs we charge between £5.5k and £8.5k. What isnt being reported is this £5k is only part of the funding there is additional funding coming in before April which will mean heat pumps, solar, insulation etc will be free to most unless ofcourse you are particularly well off then know that case perhaps it shouldn't be totally free anyway.
The issue is that there just isnt the skill sets out there with people who know what they are doing to fit heat pumps to be efficient. The person who said earlier that the claim is they work at a 3-1 ratio in terms of efficiency and it was bollox, well I can vouch that if they are specified correctly and installed, programmed correctly 3.5 should be the minimum. As i said there are alot of engineers who have no clue. I have over 30 heat pump engineers and they cost me a fortune to train to be able to install correctly.
All i can say is we have to do something to slow emissions and this is one part of it there are many hurdles the main one isnt funding it is.
The electricity grid at the moment cant cope with the potential demand.
The manufacturers are not geared up to produce the volumes required.
There just isnt the number of skilled installers to fit them all

Thanks Andy, appreciate your reply.

fenlandaddick

I've read air heat pumps do not operate as efficiently when the temperatures outside are low. To my mind this would mean when you need the warmth the most, the unit is going to be operating the hardest and therefore I presume using more electricity.

I've also read some do not operate at all when temps are low outside, and switch to an electric heater. I'm sure that cost would be very high.

I would suggest unless you have solar, batteries and/or wind turbines this is being to be a very expensive way of heating any house.

Happy to be proved wrong, but yet to be convinced.

AndyG

fenlandaddick said:

I've read air heat pumps do not operate as efficiently when the temperatures outside are low. To my mind this would mean when you need the warmth the most, the unit is going to be operating the hardest and therefore I presume using more electricity.

I've also read some do not operate at all when temps are low outside, and switch to an electric heater. I'm sure that cost would be very high.

I would suggest unless you have solar, batteries and/or wind turbines this is being to be a very expensive way of heating any house.

Happy to be proved wrong, but yet to be convinced.

Haha right I'm starting to feel like I'm defending a whole industry 

You are correct the colder the outdoor temperature the less efficient the heat pump is. However the performances for each manufacturers are based on an outside temperature of -4 degrees. As temperatures drop below that then performance does drop off but they will work very well down to -18. They are widely used in Scandinavian countries as well as Canada and they get proper cold lol

All heat pumps should have an immersion heater but this should never be used to supply the heating. It is there to take the cylinder upto 60 degrees very quickly once a week which is required by law as part of legionnaires prevention.

MrOneLung

sorry, as I am sure I could google this but does the heat pump also heat your water for showers etc? 

Is it instantaneous and unlimited? 

AndyG

MrOneLung said:

sorry, as I am sure I could google this but does the heat pump also heat your water for showers etc? 

Is it instantaneous and unlimited? 

Yes it does provide hot water bit not unlimited like a combi boiler. You have a cylinder size depending on your hot water requirements anything from 110 litres upto 500 as standard

Covered End

Anyone with a combi will need their cylinder put back in. Glad I didn't go for a combi last month. 

fenlandaddick

AndyG said: haha right I'm starting to feel like I'm defending a whole industry

Nah I'm just naturally sceptical Thanks for the info Andy, very much appreciated.

AndyG

fenlandaddick said:

AndyG said: haha right I'm starting to feel like I'm defending a whole industry

Nah I'm just naturally sceptical Thanks for the info Andy, very much appreciated.

No problem mate as I said earlier I have no agenda. All I can say is I have one, all my family have one, my business installs loads of them and as long as the heat loss of your home is carried out by someone who knows what they are doing a heat pump will save you money and help with doing your bit for the planet 😉

MrOneLung

Covered End said:

Anyone with a combi will need their cylinder put back in. Glad I didn't go for a combi last month. 

Not got a cylinder any more so another reason I am out. 

clb74

AndyG said:

fenlandaddick said:

AndyG said: haha right I'm starting to feel like I'm defending a whole industry

Nah I'm just naturally sceptical Thanks for the info Andy, very much appreciated.

No problem mate as I said earlier I have no agenda. All I can say is I have one, all my family have one, my business installs loads of them and as long as the heat loss of your home is carried out by someone who knows what they are doing a heat pump will save you money and help with doing your bit for the planet 😉

How much does it save you a year Andy?

carly burn

fenlandaddick said:

I've read air heat pumps do not operate as efficiently when the temperatures outside are low. To my mind this would mean when you need the warmth the most, the unit is going to be operating the hardest and therefore I presume using more electricity.

I've also read some do not operate at all when temps are low outside, and switch to an electric heater. I'm sure that cost would be very high.

I would suggest unless you have solar, batteries and/or wind turbines this is being to be a very expensive way of heating any house.

Happy to be proved wrong, but yet to be convinced.

 That's not necessarily true.

They are used on a large scale in places like Norway and work very well by all accounts.
 As always a lot depends on improving technologies. The working horse of a heat pump is the Refrigerant within it and the compressor used to push it's temperature up. As these develop the heat pump will become more and more reliable.

stop_shouting

What great knowledge and advice AndyG. I’m sure there will be quite a few of us on here that will refer back to this thread when we come to making this decision.

SomervilleAddick

It’s a discussion that’s going on here as well - Boston, Massachusetts. Not conversions at this point, but no new gas hookups. Any new development will be electric/ heat pump. Still an ongoing discussion.