So a divisive manager, with very patchy experience and success, hired by a narcissist who knows sod all about football, has essentially plundered his old club for a bunch of players who were so great that they were in league two in what should be the high point of their career and we have signed a half dozen academy players? Fabulous!
You must have been furious when we signed Nick Pope and Joe Aribo from non-league clubs. I mean, how good could they be if they're playing for Bury Town and Staines, ffs?
Not the same though is it? Pope and Aribo were about 19 when they were signed for their potential. I have no idea if this guy or any of the Swindon lads are any good but he’s a 27 year old player from League 2. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes but I do think it’s strange with all the Swindon connections and I believe it’s a concern. However the squad needed an overhaul and this is the level we’re looking at, hopefully it’s enough to push for promotion but I’m not sure it will be.
Absolutely this. Another big question is whether Garner is any good as a manager. I have no idea and I don’t think last season is enough evidence to be confident he is. I’m open minded.
What is clear is that a lot of recruitment / staffing decisions at the club are being financially driven, often around relatively small sums. Of course that is always true to some extent but you can’t argue we’re getting the best of L2 if that is compromised by what we’re willing to pay - the four may not be “L2 players” but that’s no different from saying we’re not a L1 club.
The five permanent signings will respectively be 28, 27, 26, 25 and 27 in the next few months - they are all mid-career rather than promising youngsters who are typical players moving up (and moving from Lincoln to Charlton is surely moving up). A great deal hangs on the manager’s ability to build a team.
Could it also be possible that another reason why TS hasn't thrown money at the squad is because he wants to see the impact Garner has as a manager? Playing it safe so to speak? If we are in a good position in January he may be more willing to use he's checkbook to help us get over the line.
Not that I have any complaints with our strategy this window. I feel in terms of squad numbers we are in a much better place than last season.
At this point there is a fair amount of evidence TS regularly overestimates what is achievable on and off the pitch - results, commercial revenue, attendances, international support - even disregarding his more outlandish rhetoric.
The problem with “playing it safe” is that the bill for being in L1 keeps on coming.
You do make TS sound quite a dimwit!!😂, I’d like to be a pound behind him and be so naive and stupid.
He wouldn't be the first highly intelligent, highly successful business man to lose a fortune on a football club and achieve sod all, would he?
Absolutely not, but he would have known and been advised as to the pitfalls, and it’s his money to do as he likes, none of ours.
Except that's not an accurate reflection is it. Because it's quite clear he expected revenue to be greater than it is and he is now talking about running it like other businesses, even "breaking even". He was either advised poorly, ignored the advice or what I believe to be the truth, a bit of both.
Ok, we are going over old ground now so I’ll leave it. People know my views, I’m not going to justify them to people as I don’t have to. If people are that unhappy don’t go and dodgy old Thomas won’t take you’re money.
nobody is saying you have to justfy them. But whenever somebody else gives their opinion you dig them out and then when people disagree with you, you just say you don't have to explain yourself. You said "I just try and do my bit go on a Saturday/ Tuesday, and support the team, and leave the politics to people that think they know best". But when you're defending Sandgaard on everything and calling anyone else who doesn't a pessimist, that's not exactly true is it? You seem to think you either have to love everything Sandgaard does or boycott and hate them. You're missing the bit in the middle where I think most of the fans currently sit.
That’s complete bollox, I have never dug anyone out for being pessimistic, I question why they are absolutely, as most of these people seem to know more than I do, my defence of sandgaard is based upon the fact nobody is giving us a good reason to be against him. I have on many occasions said I’m pretty much in the middle until he does something disastrously wrong, so please don’t paint a picture of me that’s incorrect. I have a bigger issue with the constant negativity.
Poor appointments , poor recruitment , dubious ticketing policies , putting his son into a key position with no experience, poor managerial selections (I’m not including Garner in this ). Scepticism is justified surely .
I don't want whatever you are on. Best wait and see I think.
I’m not on anything - none of what I said can be argued against . There may be a huge list of positives too , although I can’t see them. Do enlighten .
So a divisive manager, with very patchy experience and success, hired by a narcissist who knows sod all about football, has essentially plundered his old club for a bunch of players who were so great that they were in league two in what should be the high point of their career and we have signed a half dozen academy players? Fabulous!
You must have been furious when we signed Nick Pope and Joe Aribo from non-league clubs. I mean, how good could they be if they're playing for Bury Town and Staines, ffs?
Not the same though is it? Pope and Aribo were about 19 when they were signed for their potential. I have no idea if this guy or any of the Swindon lads are any good but he’s a 27 year old player from League 2. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes but I do think it’s strange with all the Swindon connections and I believe it’s a concern. However the squad needed an overhaul and this is the level we’re looking at, hopefully it’s enough to push for promotion but I’m not sure it will be.
Absolutely this. Another big question is whether Garner is any good as a manager. I have no idea and I don’t think last season is enough evidence to be confident he is. I’m open minded.
What is clear is that a lot of recruitment / staffing decisions at the club are being financially driven, often around relatively small sums. Of course that is always true to some extent but you can’t argue we’re getting the best of L2 if that is compromised by what we’re willing to pay - the four may not be “L2 players” but that’s no different from saying we’re not a L1 club.
The five permanent signings will respectively be 28, 27, 26, 25 and 27 in the next few months - they are all mid-career rather than promising youngsters who are typical players moving up (and moving from Lincoln to Charlton is surely moving up). A great deal hangs on the manager’s ability to build a team.
Could it also be possible that another reason why TS hasn't thrown money at the squad is because he wants to see the impact Garner has as a manager? Playing it safe so to speak? If we are in a good position in January he may be more willing to use he's checkbook to help us get over the line.
Not that I have any complaints with our strategy this window. I feel in terms of squad numbers we are in a much better place than last season.
At this point there is a fair amount of evidence TS regularly overestimates what is achievable on and off the pitch - results, commercial revenue, attendances, international support - even disregarding his more outlandish rhetoric.
The problem with “playing it safe” is that the bill for being in L1 keeps on coming.
You do make TS sound quite a dimwit!!😂, I’d like to be a pound behind him and be so naive and stupid.
He wouldn't be the first highly intelligent, highly successful business man to lose a fortune on a football club and achieve sod all, would he?
Absolutely not, but he would have known and been advised as to the pitfalls, and it’s his money to do as he likes, none of ours.
Except that's not an accurate reflection is it. Because it's quite clear he expected revenue to be greater than it is and he is now talking about running it like other businesses, even "breaking even". He was either advised poorly, ignored the advice or what I believe to be the truth, a bit of both.
Ok, we are going over old ground now so I’ll leave it. People know my views, I’m not going to justify them to people as I don’t have to. If people are that unhappy don’t go and dodgy old Thomas won’t take you’re money.
nobody is saying you have to justfy them. But whenever somebody else gives their opinion you dig them out and then when people disagree with you, you just say you don't have to explain yourself. You said "I just try and do my bit go on a Saturday/ Tuesday, and support the team, and leave the politics to people that think they know best". But when you're defending Sandgaard on everything and calling anyone else who doesn't a pessimist, that's not exactly true is it? You seem to think you either have to love everything Sandgaard does or boycott and hate them. You're missing the bit in the middle where I think most of the fans currently sit.
That’s complete bollox, I have never dug anyone out for being pessimistic, I question why they are absolutely, as most of these people seem to know more than I do, my defence of sandgaard is based upon the fact nobody is giving us a good reason to be against him. I have on many occasions said I’m pretty much in the middle until he does something disastrously wrong, so please don’t paint a picture of me that’s incorrect. I have a bigger issue with the constant negativity.
Poor appointments , poor recruitment , dubious ticketing policies , putting his son into a key position with no experience, poor managerial selections (I’m not including Garner in this ). Scepticism is justified surely .
I don't want whatever you are on. Best wait and see I think.
I’m not on anything - none of what I said can be argued against . There may be a huge list of positives too , although I can’t see them. Do enlighten .
Poor managerial selections? How many of you now saying Jackson was a poor selection were salivating at him getting the gig?
ANYWAY as this is a/the Jack Payne thread what are the predictions for the first choice midfield when the season starts? Payne and Mcgrandle (fitness permitting) aren't likely to have signed up with the intention of sitting on the bench but JFC has shown quality before (again if fit and still present), Kirk and Fraser seem to be building an effective partnership and Dobson is probably the first name on a lot of fan team-sheets.
Morgan and Gilbey seem to be the losers here but it's a squad game and either could be a few injuries/suspensions away from getting a chance.
The extra subs rule will no doubt add an element of deliberate rotation but it's an interesting dilemma for Garner to have.
ANYWAY as this is a/the Jack Payne thread what are the predictions for the first choice midfield when the season starts? Payne and Mcgrandle (fitness permitting) aren't likely to have signed up with the intention of sitting on the bench but JFC has shown quality before (again if fit and still present), Kirk and Fraser seem to be building an effective partnership and Dobson is probably the first name on a lot of fan team-sheets.
Morgan and Gilbey seem to be the losers here but it's a squad game and either could be a few injuries/suspensions away from getting a chance.
The extra subs rule will no doubt add an element of deliberate rotation but it's an interesting dilemma for Garner to have.
It's the thing that excites me the most. I think the defence and front line still need work.
But all things aren't equal, there are politics, human nature, fitness and dozens of other things to contend with.
Of the others I think Dobson has the highest floor, Morgan the highest ceiling, McGrandle is the most rounded and Gilbey, well he would be the one I would move on but.....
It is so refreshing when this time last year we had Dobson, Clare and Morgan backed up by Dempsy, Vennings, a very young Henry and (checks notes) Madger Gomes.
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
I think most modern players signup for new teams knowing they will have to prove themselves and earn their place in the starting XI. It’s a squad game these days and unless you’re someone like Ronaldo or Messi you don’t expect any guarantees or to be undroppable. They’ll all back themselves as good enough to secure that starting berth but but if someone does expect to be picked regardless then we shouldn’t want them at the club anyway.
It looks like healthy competition in midfield and most of the options offer something a bit different to each other. Probably one could be allowed to leave though. I’d choose Gilbey but all the noises are it’ll be JFC.
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
Payne didn't sign to not start.
I think the same could be said of McGrandles and Fraser. They're competing with our player of the season and currently, the one before that too. Bottom line is that if any of them play well enough they'll start. It's unlikely we'll have 4/5 playing so incredibly well that they are the first few names on the teamsheet.
Either way, like I say there's plenty of football to go around. You could rotate 4 of them and they could all start around 35 league games.
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
What do we do with Payne?
Same thing we do with the other 12/13 half decent players we'll have who can't start.
Since our first promotion out of the third tier of English football in 1929 we have been relegated in to it 6 times
it took us 2 seasons 3 seasons 1 season
3 seasons 3 seasons 3 seasons at least
to get out of it
6 seasons of third tier football 1929-2009
and we are now entering our 9th season in 14 of 3rd tier football
facts of how poor these recent times are, failure to get out of it this coming season will be more Charlton history made .
Thank you for saving us TS and as someone who is spending 25-50 times more at the club than I did when Roland was here I don’t think I can show much more support to TS . if words on the internet made any difference then I’d happily sit here strumming everything Charlton off to get a promotion. I’m pretty certain everyone who can afford and is able to get there will be supporting the team in the ground but on here all view points and discussion is allowed .
I will never be happy in the third tier of nothingness , why , well because of our history yeah but we might not exist , yes I lived through that potential nightmare in 1984 once again thanks for saving us TS and hopefully his club policy will get us out of this division through promotion and hero worship will be abound till the next failure but if it doesn’t happen then I’m not gonna be jumping for joy and ignoring how guff it really is .
'I'm a bit suspicious of all these people who can play football. Strikes me we need someone who will boot it out of play'
If in their own area and surrounded by 3 opposition players you would hope so if the jeopardy is too high to pass. Madness has crept into football at all levels with keepers trying to do Johan Cruyff turns with a forward pressing them. Enjoyed Jack Butland trying this for Palace and giving a goal away.
Play a passing game but don't put your team in danger just yards from your own goal 🤦🏻♂️
'I'm a bit suspicious of all these people who can play football. Strikes me we need someone who will boot it out of play'
If in their own area and surrounded by 3 opposition players you would hope so if the jeopardy is too high to pass. Madness has crept into football at all levels with keepers trying to do Johan Cruyff turns with a forward pressing them. Enjoyed Jack Butland trying this for Palace and giving a goal away.
Play a passing game but don't put your team in danger just yards from your own goal 🤦🏻♂️
If we had Dobson, McGrandles, JFC, Payne and Fraser competing for 3 spots I'd argue we could quite well have the best midfield in the division. If we lose JFC and keep both Morgan and Gilbey I don't think that's the case.
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
Payne didn't sign to not start.
I think the same could be said of McGrandles and Fraser. They're competing with our player of the season and currently, the one before that too. Bottom line is that if any of them play well enough they'll start. It's unlikely we'll have 4/5 playing so incredibly well that they are the first few names on the teamsheet.
Either way, like I say there's plenty of football to go around. You could rotate 4 of them and they could all start around 35 league games.
The difference between McGrandles and Payne, and the other midfield options is that it was the current manager who signed them, and all managers have a slight bias towards players they've signed. Especially the latest one.
Don't play the big signing you brought to the club yourself and people question your judgement, whereas if it's someone else's signing, then it's easier to justify as the fault of the previous manager...
Comments
Either way this is not a discussion for the Jack Payne thread so let's at least have this chat on the right thread.
Payne and McGrandle didn't sign to sit on the bench. Fraser is probably our most expensive signing for a long time, if not second, and was "discovered" by Martin ( https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/thomas-sandgaard-breaks-down-how-he-sees-summer-transfer-window-for-charlton-athletic/). JFC 2021 POTY, Dobson 2022 POTY. (JFC got a higher statbank mark for what it's worth).
If all other things were equal I would go with
JFC
Payne Fraser
But all things aren't equal, there are politics, human nature, fitness and dozens of other things to contend with.
Of the others I think Dobson has the highest floor, Morgan the highest ceiling, McGrandle is the most rounded and Gilbey, well he would be the one I would move on but.....
It is so refreshing when this time last year we had Dobson, Clare and Morgan backed up by Dempsy, Vennings, a very young Henry and (checks notes) Madger Gomes.
He reckons JFC is off.
WIOTOS
I think Dobson, McGrandles and Fraser are probably the three on paper who are the starters. But a 50 game season playing 3 in midfield means 5 could all start 30 games anyway.
It looks like healthy competition in midfield and most of the options offer something a bit different to each other. Probably one could be allowed to leave though. I’d choose Gilbey but all the noises are it’ll be JFC.
I am in denial, I am really hoping against hope that it doesn't happen. I still think he is the best midfielder at the club.
I understand why it's happening and I understand why he wants to go but it might still back fire on him or us. Or both.
Either way, like I say there's plenty of football to go around. You could rotate 4 of them and they could all start around 35 league games.
it took us 2 seasons
3 seasons
1 season
3 seasons
3 seasons
3 seasons at least
to get out of it
6 seasons of third tier football 1929-2009
and we are now entering our 9th season in 14 of 3rd tier football
facts of how poor these recent times are, failure to get out of it this coming season will be more Charlton history made .
Thank you for saving us TS and as someone who is spending 25-50 times more at the club than I did when Roland was here I don’t think I can show much more support to TS .
if words on the internet made any difference then I’d happily sit here strumming everything Charlton off to get a promotion.
I’m pretty certain everyone who can afford and is able to get there will be supporting the team in the ground but on here all view points and discussion is allowed .
yeah but we might not exist , yes I lived through that potential nightmare in 1984
once again thanks for saving us TS and hopefully his club policy will get us out of this division through promotion and hero worship will be abound till the next failure but if it doesn’t happen then I’m not gonna be jumping for joy and ignoring how guff it really is .
Yours sincerely
Jack Payne’s dad
Royal Mail recommendation:
If in their own area and surrounded by 3 opposition players you would hope so if the jeopardy is too high to pass. Madness has crept into football at all levels with keepers trying to do Johan Cruyff turns with a forward pressing them. Enjoyed Jack Butland trying this for Palace and giving a goal away.
Play a passing game but don't put your team in danger just yards from your own goal 🤦🏻♂️
Don't play the big signing you brought to the club yourself and people question your judgement, whereas if it's someone else's signing, then it's easier to justify as the fault of the previous manager...