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The “Elgin Marbles”

ShootersHillGuruShootersHillGuru
edited October 2022 in Not Sports Related
No reason for this to become political so thought it might be interesting to see the CL thoughts and wisdom on this subject which seems to be, according to this BBC piece raising the possibility of an arrangement for the sculpture to be returned to Greece. I’d certainly support that idea

Elgin Marbles: New body aims to return sculptures to Greece https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63231885
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    MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    We could make copies of them and send the originals back. 
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    MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    Well, we were told it would be a scaled down coronation and it could be from a Harrods Cracker rather than a Poundland one!
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    SporadicAddickSporadicAddick
    Yep, and I didn’t pay them or help them move the TV out of the front door.
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    jacob_CAFCjacob_CAFC
    In a purely selfish way, I would be disappointed to see them go as it's great to be able to be able to access all this stuff on our doorstep.

    However, if the country that we stole them from want them back they should 100% go back.
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    MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    If we gave them back and sorted out an agreement they would return for 6 months every 20 years, they would make a lot more money as it would become an event they could charge for rather than something we can do tomorrow and never get round to it.
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    se9addickse9addick
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    If we gave them back and sorted out an agreement they would return for 6 months every 20 years, they would make a lot more money as it would become an event they could charge for rather than something we can do tomorrow and never get round to it.
    I think we should just give them back, no strings attached. 
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    swordfishswordfish
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
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    se9addickse9addick
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
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    cafcfancafcfan
    edited October 2022
    A complex subject. Not least because at the time they were removed Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire and the Pantheon site was far from well cared for.

    Anyway to bring a little light-heartedness to the subject. I was discussing said items with colleagues at work one lunchtime. An ex-Superintendent of the Met Police asked, in all seriousness: "So, these Elgin Marbles, what are they made of and who brought them into the country?".
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    swordfishswordfish
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.
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    MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    It could be dealt with on a case by case basis. 
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    GribboGribbo
    swordfish said:
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.
    Spot on and I can nominate at least 10 "Lifers" who could arbitrate on behalf of humankind...
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    Off_itOff_it
    bobmunro said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    No reason for this to become political so thought it might be interesting to see the CL thoughts and wisdom on this subject which seems to be, according to this BBC piece raising the possibility of an arrangement for the sculpture to be returned to Greece. I’d certainly support that idea

    Elgin Marbles: New body aims to return sculptures to Greece https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63231885
    We should return stolen goods to their rightful owners.
    Depends what you mean by "stolen", surely?

    If items were bought, gifted or removed with the full permission of the relevant authority at the time then that's completely different to if someone just turned up and helped themselves.

    Otherwise we'd better "give back" Cleopatra's Needle whilst we're at it, as well as anything made of gold that wasn't mined in the UK!
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    Off_itOff_it
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    I dunno. What did the Romans ever do for us?
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    Off_itOff_it
    SuedeAdidas said:
    We should create an NFT for them and keep the original. 
    Sold!
    :-)
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    swordfishswordfish
    edited October 2022
    Gribbo said:
    swordfish said:
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.
    Spot on and I can nominate at least 10 "Lifers" who could arbitrate on behalf of humankind...
    Thing is, such matters have to be decided referencing recorded historical facts, but those so called 'facts' are often disputed aren't they? However, it's not as if you can call on witnesses to give living testimony.

    I'm not talking specifically about the Elgin marbles case here btw, but there are far too many cases of injustices today being suffered by the living and that should be the primary focus of demands for reparation.

    In an ideal world with limitless resources, all cases could be looked at, but that's for the birds 
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    RedArmySE7RedArmySE7
    There was a really good segment on this whole subject and that of stolen/looted artefacts that sit in museums around the world on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver a week or two back.

    Well worth seeing. 
  • Options
    se9addickse9addick
    swordfish said:
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.
    Why not do the right thing in this instance, give back the marbles, and then cross those bridges when we get there? 

    I don’t think we should “avoid” the idea that we should consider how this country has benefitted significantly from the exploitation of other parts of the world and, if there is a genuine case for restitution, then it should be considered. 
  • Options
    Pedro45Pedro45
    Off_it said:
    bobmunro said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    No reason for this to become political so thought it might be interesting to see the CL thoughts and wisdom on this subject which seems to be, according to this BBC piece raising the possibility of an arrangement for the sculpture to be returned to Greece. I’d certainly support that idea

    Elgin Marbles: New body aims to return sculptures to Greece https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63231885
    We should return stolen goods to their rightful owners.
    Depends what you mean by "stolen", surely?

    If items were bought, gifted or removed with the full permission of the relevant authority at the time then that's completely different to if someone just turned up and helped themselves.

    Otherwise we'd better "give back" Cleopatra's Needle whilst we're at it, as well as anything made of gold that wasn't mined in the UK!
    Originally Cleopatra's needle was a pair; the ship carrying one of them sank in the Med, so it's now at the bottom of the briney!
  • Options
    Off_itOff_it
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    se9addick said:
    swordfish said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
    Ever been burgled ? 
    Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.

    It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and  misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.

    If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.

    It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world. 
    Is that a bad thing? 
    Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.
    Why not do the right thing in this instance, give back the marbles, and then cross those bridges when we get there? 

    I don’t think we should “avoid” the idea that we should consider how this country has benefitted significantly from the exploitation of other parts of the world and, if there is a genuine case for restitution, then it should be considered. 
    That makes the (big) assumption that giving the marble back is the "right thing" because they were stolen in the first place. I'm no expert by any means, but isn't that the whole point?
  • Options
    GribboGribbo
    edited October 2022
    Pedro45 said:
    Off_it said:
    bobmunro said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    No reason for this to become political so thought it might be interesting to see the CL thoughts and wisdom on this subject which seems to be, according to this BBC piece raising the possibility of an arrangement for the sculpture to be returned to Greece. I’d certainly support that idea

    Elgin Marbles: New body aims to return sculptures to Greece https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63231885
    We should return stolen goods to their rightful owners.
    Depends what you mean by "stolen", surely?

    If items were bought, gifted or removed with the full permission of the relevant authority at the time then that's completely different to if someone just turned up and helped themselves.

    Otherwise we'd better "give back" Cleopatra's Needle whilst we're at it, as well as anything made of gold that wasn't mined in the UK!
    Originally Cleopatra's needle was a pair; the ship carrying one of them sank in the Med, so it's now at the bottom of the briney!
    Think you'll find there's 3 of em
  • Options
    Karim_myBagheriKarim_myBagheri
    edited October 2022
    Pedro45 said:
    Off_it said:
    bobmunro said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    No reason for this to become political so thought it might be interesting to see the CL thoughts and wisdom on this subject which seems to be, according to this BBC piece raising the possibility of an arrangement for the sculpture to be returned to Greece. I’d certainly support that idea

    Elgin Marbles: New body aims to return sculptures to Greece https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63231885
    We should return stolen goods to their rightful owners.
    Depends what you mean by "stolen", surely?

    If items were bought, gifted or removed with the full permission of the relevant authority at the time then that's completely different to if someone just turned up and helped themselves.

    Otherwise we'd better "give back" Cleopatra's Needle whilst we're at it, as well as anything made of gold that wasn't mined in the UK!
    Originally Cleopatra's needle was a pair; the ship carrying one of them sank in the Med, so it's now at the bottom of the briney!
    don't think it sank, it certainly was knackered after a storm. I think they manage to tow it back to Gravesend. There are 3. One in London, one in paris and one in New York. 
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