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Is Holden under pressure?
Comments
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Will depend on what happens between now and the end of the window. I don’t see a striker and a few premiership loans making enough difference to get us top six.2
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Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards6 -
Simple answer is to win matches.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
That will always be enough to win over the fan's.15 -
Any manager of a side with play off aspirations that loses 3 of his first 4 games as well as being dumped out of the cup by a lower league side, has to be under pressure.
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Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.2 -
He hasn't implemented a press? Just want to clarify because you bolded that part of my post, but your reply seems to be about implementing a general style of playthenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.1 -
The first thing Holden should do is look at the set pieces.
We couldn't be worse.
We don't look close to scoring and look like conceding every time.
Score one more goal & concede one less & those losses would have been victories.8 -
He’s under pressure.We should have had at least a point against Rovers and when scoring two against Port Vale at home, you definitely should be winning.vs Aberdeen, our defensive set up behind our attacks were ridiculous.
A full week of work later, we were a lot more organised vs Orient.Hoping to see another reaction at Oxford!0 -
100%. Some of the corners we have taken this season have been embarrassing. It’s been like Sunday league hangover stuff.Covered End said:The first thing Holden should do is look at the set pieces.
We couldn't be worse.
We don't look close to scoring and look like conceding every time.
Score one more goal & concede one less & those losses would have been victories.4 -
Not successfully in my opinion. I think he wants a press but I don't think that what we have seen so far really counts.Chunes said:
He hasn't implemented a press? Just want to clarify because you bolded that part of my post, but your reply seems to be about implementing a general style of playthenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.1 -
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Agree. The thing is why don’t other L1 teams make regular calamity mistakes like us?Brownie12 said:
100%. Some of the corners we have taken this season have been embarrassing. It’s been like Sunday league hangover stuff.Covered End said:The first thing Holden should do is look at the set pieces.
We couldn't be worse.
We don't look close to scoring and look like conceding every time.
Score one more goal & concede one less & those losses would have been victories.
I can’t remember a team we have played doing something like…
a) Hector’s Sunday league defending on Sat
b) Edun’s corner in injury time against Peterborough (just kicked it straight out of play behind the goal)
I get that league one isn’t the premier league but for “professional” footballers we regularly dish up some shocking stuff (that never seems to happen against us).2 -
The fact that we have had about 10 different corner takers this year shows that the coaching staff are still very much learning / working out who is any good at them.1
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The thing is, is it really that hard for a professional footballer to put a corner in somewhere between the penalty spot and the 6 yard box? It really shouldn’t be.Oh Eddie Youds... said:The fact that we have had about 10 different corner takers this year shows that the coaching staff are still very much learning / working out who is any good at them.We had the fuss around Taylor being a dead ball specialist. Each one he took on Saturday caused no problems that I can remember. (I’m probably being harsh after one league start). We see endless you tube clips of new signings producing for their previous clubs, yet we get hold of them and don’t see anything like the clips show.1 -
Pretending there was bond between the fans and the players after the Orient was delusional. There hasn’t been a bond between players and fans for years, which is depressing because even when we’ve been rubbish before there has been.oohaahmortimer said:It all started with the ridiculous hand holding celebration after our 1-0 victory over Orient , oh we have a connection
fuck off
boo them they can’t do any worse1 -
You’re definitely right . Another thing that’s not been mentioned much is the luck we are having- All of it bad .Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwardsSure we’ve made some howlers but how often would a crap team like Port Vale take advantage of them successfully at every opportunity as they did on Saturday?That’s without mentioning the injuries although I do think there’s more to those than just bad luck.2 -
At the end of last season Fraser and Morgan took most of them, depending on which side of the pitch they were as most were inswingers. The former is injured, the latter gone, and at the moment it feels like they don't have a set individual to take them, or someone who's REALLY been practicing themOh Eddie Youds... said:The fact that we have had about 10 different corner takers this year shows that the coaching staff are still very much learning / working out who is any good at them.1 -
Good corner routines are also about the other players. They have to know where to run, which opposition players to block etc. That comes with practice.Brownie12 said:
The thing is, is it really that hard for a professional footballer to put a corner in somewhere between the penalty spot and the 6 yard box? It really shouldn’t be.Oh Eddie Youds... said:The fact that we have had about 10 different corner takers this year shows that the coaching staff are still very much learning / working out who is any good at them.We had the fuss around Taylor being a dead ball specialist. Each one he took on Saturday caused no problems that I can remember. (I’m probably being harsh after one league start). We see endless you tube clips of new signings producing for their previous clubs, yet we get hold of them and don’t see anything like the clips show.
We've got a free week now. No excuse for not having better set pieces at Oxford.0 -
The problem with not having the players who can take set pieces , especially corners , is that it makes it really difficult to practice defending them at training .8
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Fair point actually.Bedsaddick said:The problem with not having the players who can take set pieces , especially corners , is that it makes it really difficult to practice defending them at training .1 -
Don’t agree with the press thing. I think if he had implemented the press then I don’t think we would have given the momentum back to Port Vale after the penalty. For me that was pretty clear and it was only a matter of time before they equalised. We handed the momentum back to them on a plate.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards2 -
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We do press in numbers at times, I will give him (and @Chunes) that. But how many times have we won the ball in the opposition's first third? How many chances are coming from the press? I believe we had one on Saturday, but beyond that, not much. And breaking our press hasn't been that hard for teams, if you beat the first wave of 3-4 players, you can pretty easily find an open player further up the field. And because we press high up in threes and fours, oftentimes with two of the central midfielders stepping to the ball, it's not that hard to find room, oftentimes in the center of the park, for the opposition to break the press.thenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.
It also looks at times like half of our team is pressing and half isn't. So those front four, CF, either other CF or one of the wingers, and the two higher CMs are pressing, but the rest of the team is sitting off. I think some of that caused their second on Saturday, we're pressing the ball in areas but not attacking it in others.
To Newbie's point, I remain far more concerned about what we do in possession. We are not a side built to score a lot from set pieces, and I feel like some people get caught up a lot in how we do at corners and miss the rest of the game. In possession, we play two or three passes and then lump it long. Even if we get into the opposition's third, we are easily crowded out. I said it about CBT in his thread, but he oftentimes runs into two or three defenders not because he's unwilling to pass, but because there's just nowhere else to go with the ball. Teams have clearly realized that they can sit off of us and we're either going to lump it to their CBs who are much bigger and better in the air than May, or we're going to pick CBT out and hope he comes up with a moment of magic when isolated 1-v-1 against his fullback. And to his credit, he has beaten his FB at times this year, but he is then looking to cross into the box with four defenders and two attackers.
We don't get forward in numbers, we haven't had many of the runs from central midfield that we saw from Anderson and Fraser in pre-season, and Edun hasn't overlapped CBT much, and then whoever has played on the right (Kanu and Payne), they have come so far inside that Asiimwe is basically playing the Dani Alves role of occupying the entire right side of the pitch. It's no coincidence that Asiimwe looked knackered given how much ground he was asked to cover on Saturday due to Kanu basically playing as an inside right, or just as a CF when we were in possession.
So many things tactically feel like Jacko's half season all over again. We're playing 3-5-2 with one winger and one wingback. We're looking to have a CB overlap their wingback, but we don't get enough forward and don't keep the ball well enough to allow for that. We're a very lopsided team, but in a very predictable way, and as such, other teams have not only figured out how to defend us, they also know how to exploit us.
It's early days still, but I have never been particularly impressed by Holden's ability to set up a system, let alone make tactical tweaks to it. I just think that teams have kind of sussed him out earlier this season than when he took over last season. And while injuries are a big problem in this squad, the strength of the players at our disposal when healthy is not. This is not a perfect squad, but Edun, both of our keepers, Hector on form, Dobbo, Fraser, Camara, CBT, Taylor, Miles, and May would all walk into the starting XIs of most teams in this league. Obviously about half of those are either injured or still getting up to speed, but the excuse of "the squad isn't good enough" can't really be rolled out this season, especially if we're able to add at FB and another attacker. The division lacks the strength that it had last season, and this is a squad strong in depth. If we haven't chalked up 2-3 wins in the next month, I expect Holden will be gone. This is not a team to be flirting with 16th, especially not this year when the division is noticeably weaker.3 -
I think there have some very positive passing moves against Orient (weak team) and B. Rovers (my money on a fringe team for playoffs). These involved players passing forward and particularly Camara kept the forward motion going. Think back to the 1st 25mins vs B Rovers- free flowing football ( from both sides).SDAddick said:
We do press in numbers at times, I will give him (and @Chunes) that. But how many times have we won the ball in the opposition's first third? How many chances are coming from the press? I believe we had one on Saturday, but beyond that, not much. And breaking our press hasn't been that hard for teams, if you beat the first wave of 3-4 players, you can pretty easily find an open player further up the field. And because we press high up in threes and fours, oftentimes with two of the central midfielders stepping to the ball, it's not that hard to find room, oftentimes in the center of the park, for the opposition to break the press.thenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.
It also looks at times like half of our team is pressing and half isn't. So those front four, CF, either other CF or one of the wingers, and the two higher CMs are pressing, but the rest of the team is sitting off. I think some of that caused their second on Saturday, we're pressing the ball in areas but not attacking it in others.
To Newbie's point, I remain far more concerned about what we do in possession. We are not a side built to score a lot from set pieces, and I feel like some people get caught up a lot in how we do at corners and miss the rest of the game. In possession, we play two or three passes and then lump it long. Even if we get into the opposition's third, we are easily crowded out. I said it about CBT in his thread, but he oftentimes runs into two or three defenders not because he's unwilling to pass, but because there's just nowhere else to go with the ball. Teams have clearly realized that they can sit off of us and we're either going to lump it to their CBs who are much bigger and better in the air than May, or we're going to pick CBT out and hope he comes up with a moment of magic when isolated 1-v-1 against his fullback. And to his credit, he has beaten his FB at times this year, but he is then looking to cross into the box with four defenders and two attackers.
We don't get forward in numbers, we haven't had many of the runs from central midfield that we saw from Anderson and Fraser in pre-season, and Edun hasn't overlapped CBT much, and then whoever has played on the right (Kanu and Payne), they have come so far inside that Asiimwe is basically playing the Dani Alves role of occupying the entire right side of the pitch. It's no coincidence that Asiimwe looked knackered given how much ground he was asked to cover on Saturday due to Kanu basically playing as an inside right, or just as a CF when we were in possession.
So many things tactically feel like Jacko's half season all over again. We're playing 3-5-2 with one winger and one wingback. We're looking to have a CB overlap their wingback, but we don't get enough forward and don't keep the ball well enough to allow for that. We're a very lopsided team, but in a very predictable way, and as such, other teams have not only figured out how to defend us, they also know how to exploit us.
It's early days still, but I have never been particularly impressed by Holden's ability to set up a system, let alone make tactical tweaks to it. I just think that teams have kind of sussed him out earlier this season than when he took over last season. And while injuries are a big problem in this squad, the strength of the players at our disposal when healthy is not. This is not a perfect squad, but Edun, both of our keepers, Hector on form, Dobbo, Fraser, Camara, CBT, Taylor, Miles, and May would all walk into the starting XIs of most teams in this league. Obviously about half of those are either injured or still getting up to speed, but the excuse of "the squad isn't good enough" can't really be rolled out this season, especially if we're able to add at FB and another attacker. The division lacks the strength that it had last season, and this is a squad strong in depth. If we haven't chalked up 2-3 wins in the next month, I expect Holden will be gone. This is not a team to be flirting with 16th, especially not this year when the division is noticeably weaker.
Game against Vale- ok we were on top early on but pretty disjointed performance against a weak team. No Camara or Fraser in that one and it soon fell apart (without a second goal) quite rapidly when PV stopped just kicking the ball into touch.
I've been encouraged by the first 2 home games, less so with the third (rhyming slang- ~?>?)0 -
SDAddick said:
We do press in numbers at times, I will give him (and @Chunes) that. But how many times have we won the ball in the opposition's first third? How many chances are coming from the press? I believe we had one on Saturday, but beyond that, not much. And breaking our press hasn't been that hard for teams, if you beat the first wave of 3-4 players, you can pretty easily find an open player further up the field. And because we press high up in threes and fours, oftentimes with two of the central midfielders stepping to the ball, it's not that hard to find room, oftentimes in the center of the park, for the opposition to break the press.thenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.
It also looks at times like half of our team is pressing and half isn't. So those front four, CF, either other CF or one of the wingers, and the two higher CMs are pressing, but the rest of the team is sitting off. I think some of that caused their second on Saturday, we're pressing the ball in areas but not attacking it in others.
To Newbie's point, I remain far more concerned about what we do in possession. We are not a side built to score a lot from set pieces, and I feel like some people get caught up a lot in how we do at corners and miss the rest of the game. In possession, we play two or three passes and then lump it long. Even if we get into the opposition's third, we are easily crowded out. I said it about CBT in his thread, but he oftentimes runs into two or three defenders not because he's unwilling to pass, but because there's just nowhere else to go with the ball. Teams have clearly realized that they can sit off of us and we're either going to lump it to their CBs who are much bigger and better in the air than May, or we're going to pick CBT out and hope he comes up with a moment of magic when isolated 1-v-1 against his fullback. And to his credit, he has beaten his FB at times this year, but he is then looking to cross into the box with four defenders and two attackers.
We don't get forward in numbers, we haven't had many of the runs from central midfield that we saw from Anderson and Fraser in pre-season, and Edun hasn't overlapped CBT much, and then whoever has played on the right (Kanu and Payne), they have come so far inside that Asiimwe is basically playing the Dani Alves role of occupying the entire right side of the pitch. It's no coincidence that Asiimwe looked knackered given how much ground he was asked to cover on Saturday due to Kanu basically playing as an inside right, or just as a CF when we were in possession.
So many things tactically feel like Jacko's half season all over again. We're playing 3-5-2 with one winger and one wingback. We're looking to have a CB overlap their wingback, but we don't get enough forward and don't keep the ball well enough to allow for that. We're a very lopsided team, but in a very predictable way, and as such, other teams have not only figured out how to defend us, they also know how to exploit us.
It's early days still, but I have never been particularly impressed by Holden's ability to set up a system, let alone make tactical tweaks to it. I just think that teams have kind of sussed him out earlier this season than when he took over last season. And while injuries are a big problem in this squad, the strength of the players at our disposal when healthy is not. This is not a perfect squad, but Edun, both of our keepers, Hector on form, Dobbo, Fraser, Camara, CBT, Taylor, Miles, and May would all walk into the starting XIs of most teams in this league. Obviously about half of those are either injured or still getting up to speed, but the excuse of "the squad isn't good enough" can't really be rolled out this season, especially if we're able to add at FB and another attacker. The division lacks the strength that it had last season, and this is a squad strong in depth. If we haven't chalked up 2-3 wins in the next month, I expect Holden will be gone. This is not a team to be flirting with 16th, especially not this year when the division is noticeably weaker.
I will confess to being a bit of a data nerd, but statistically we have created the most chances in the league from winning the ball high up the pitch. Our press is very good, Camara in particular has been brilliant when on the pitch at this, May is also very good at hurrying defenders into losing possession.From open play in general we have also created the second highest xG in the league. I really don’t think there are too many problems with our attack, especially when any problem I can think of will be fixed by Leaburn or a new striker being added to the team and us hopefully starting to actually convert more of these chances and attract the attention of defenders to free up May and CBT more.Set pieces and individual defensive errors are the problems at the moment. Holden can’t do much about the latter but we really need to see drastic improvement at both ends of the pitch on the first3 -
You know what, thats fair I'm not a stats person so if the press really is there and its the conversion that's lacking, then yep I'll hold my hands up and say fair play to Holden for implementation there.NabySarr said:SDAddick said:
We do press in numbers at times, I will give him (and @Chunes) that. But how many times have we won the ball in the opposition's first third? How many chances are coming from the press? I believe we had one on Saturday, but beyond that, not much. And breaking our press hasn't been that hard for teams, if you beat the first wave of 3-4 players, you can pretty easily find an open player further up the field. And because we press high up in threes and fours, oftentimes with two of the central midfielders stepping to the ball, it's not that hard to find room, oftentimes in the center of the park, for the opposition to break the press.thenewbie said:
Except he hasn't. Our style currently appears to be faff around at the back AND THEN hoof it forwards, towards probably the shortest strike pair in the league.Chunes said:Am I alone in thinking the style of play is actually a bit better
Holden is the first manager to have actually implemented a press
Can managers 'win' with the fans? Either they need to step faffing about with it at the back and get it forward faster, or they need to stop hoofing it forwards
He's trying to implement a style I'll give him that but hard to say he's succeeded yet.
It also looks at times like half of our team is pressing and half isn't. So those front four, CF, either other CF or one of the wingers, and the two higher CMs are pressing, but the rest of the team is sitting off. I think some of that caused their second on Saturday, we're pressing the ball in areas but not attacking it in others.
To Newbie's point, I remain far more concerned about what we do in possession. We are not a side built to score a lot from set pieces, and I feel like some people get caught up a lot in how we do at corners and miss the rest of the game. In possession, we play two or three passes and then lump it long. Even if we get into the opposition's third, we are easily crowded out. I said it about CBT in his thread, but he oftentimes runs into two or three defenders not because he's unwilling to pass, but because there's just nowhere else to go with the ball. Teams have clearly realized that they can sit off of us and we're either going to lump it to their CBs who are much bigger and better in the air than May, or we're going to pick CBT out and hope he comes up with a moment of magic when isolated 1-v-1 against his fullback. And to his credit, he has beaten his FB at times this year, but he is then looking to cross into the box with four defenders and two attackers.
We don't get forward in numbers, we haven't had many of the runs from central midfield that we saw from Anderson and Fraser in pre-season, and Edun hasn't overlapped CBT much, and then whoever has played on the right (Kanu and Payne), they have come so far inside that Asiimwe is basically playing the Dani Alves role of occupying the entire right side of the pitch. It's no coincidence that Asiimwe looked knackered given how much ground he was asked to cover on Saturday due to Kanu basically playing as an inside right, or just as a CF when we were in possession.
So many things tactically feel like Jacko's half season all over again. We're playing 3-5-2 with one winger and one wingback. We're looking to have a CB overlap their wingback, but we don't get enough forward and don't keep the ball well enough to allow for that. We're a very lopsided team, but in a very predictable way, and as such, other teams have not only figured out how to defend us, they also know how to exploit us.
It's early days still, but I have never been particularly impressed by Holden's ability to set up a system, let alone make tactical tweaks to it. I just think that teams have kind of sussed him out earlier this season than when he took over last season. And while injuries are a big problem in this squad, the strength of the players at our disposal when healthy is not. This is not a perfect squad, but Edun, both of our keepers, Hector on form, Dobbo, Fraser, Camara, CBT, Taylor, Miles, and May would all walk into the starting XIs of most teams in this league. Obviously about half of those are either injured or still getting up to speed, but the excuse of "the squad isn't good enough" can't really be rolled out this season, especially if we're able to add at FB and another attacker. The division lacks the strength that it had last season, and this is a squad strong in depth. If we haven't chalked up 2-3 wins in the next month, I expect Holden will be gone. This is not a team to be flirting with 16th, especially not this year when the division is noticeably weaker.
I will confess to being a bit of a data nerd, but statistically we have created the most chances in the league from winning the ball high up the pitch. Our press is very good, Camara in particular has been brilliant when on the pitch at this, May is also very good at hurrying defenders into losing possession.From open play in general we have also created the second highest xG in the league. I really don’t think there are too many problems with our attack, especially when any problem I can think of will be fixed by Leaburn or a new striker being added to the team and us hopefully starting to actually convert more of these chances and attract the attention of defenders to free up May and CBT more.Set pieces and individual defensive errors are the problems at the moment. Holden can’t do much about the latter but we really need to see drastic improvement at both ends of the pitch on the first
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100%. More points thrown away through poor coaching.We’re tactically inept.6
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Starting to feel a bit like Adkins second season6
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Got a feeling his time may soon be up.4
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Darren Moore’s available…6
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Not sure the way he wants to play suits our squad, but he's miles better as a manager than Holden.Callumcafc said:Darren Moore’s available…3
