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Rugby World Cup 2023

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  • kinveachyaddick
    kinveachyaddick Posts: 3,875
    I don't think the final will be one-sided. Likely to be Ireland or NZ vs France or SA. And even the semi-finals I suspect will be close enough to make them a decent spectacle. Playing as huge underdogs against either France or SA would be right up England's street - absolutely no expectation to play any rugby - just dog it out for 80 mins and try to stop the other side playing by dragging them down to England's level. Perfect for this England team!
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    Wales 
    Ireland

    Ireland 
     
    England just 
    France 

    France 

    Ireland vs France final which France will win is my take on it. 
  • kinveachyaddick
    kinveachyaddick Posts: 3,875
    palarsehater said:
    Wales 
    Ireland

    Ireland 
     
    England just 
    France 

    France 

    Ireland vs France final which France will win is my take on it. 
    Would be good to see a Six Nations takeover of the last four!
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    my other half is irish so we wanted to venture out to watch the game aside from oneills do any of the other pubs show rugby? thanks in advance 
  • TelMc32
    TelMc32 Posts: 9,055
    palarsehater said:
    my other half is irish so we wanted to venture out to watch the game aside from oneills do any of the other pubs show rugby? thanks in advance 
    Hardys is pretty decent for the rugby games.
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
    I'd have to see the draw. But it wouldn't have the teams ranked 2 and 3 playing one another in the quarter final and it would have been possible for nos 1, 2 and 5 to all qualify for the quarter finals.

    Maybe you don't understand seeding? But the Wimbledon draw is a good way to demonstrate it. ever wondered why the tops 2 seeds are in different halves of the draw and the seeds are distributed as they are?

    Maybe you haven't been following this thread or the tournament very closely?
  • TelMc32
    TelMc32 Posts: 9,055
    edited October 2023
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Interesting piece from Ruck here on how the groups would have looked had they been drawn closer to the tournament. Certainly a tougher ask of England.  Beaumont’s argument is very weak and doesn’t stand up at all…confirmed by the fact that they won’t do it again. 

    https://www.ruck.co.uk/france-opener-england-get-tough-group-in-revised-rugby-world-cup-draw/
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  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Interesting piece from Ruck here on how the groups would have looked had they been drawn closer to the tournament. Certainly a tougher ask of England.  Beaumont’s argument is very weak and doesn’t stand up at all…confirmed by the fact that they won’t do it again. 
    What, in short, is Beaumont's argument?
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Interesting piece from Ruck here on how the groups would have looked had they been drawn closer to the tournament. Certainly a tougher ask of England.  Beaumont’s argument is very weak and doesn’t stand up at all…confirmed by the fact that they won’t do it again. 
    Agreed. I assess the comments on here would have been quite different if England were in the same group as nos 1 and 2 in the world (if they weren't either)!
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
    I'd have to see the draw. But it wouldn't have the teams ranked 2 and 3 playing one another in the quarter final and it would have been possible for nos 1, 2 and 5 to all qualify for the quarter finals.

    Maybe you don't understand seeding? But the Wimbledon draw is a good way to demonstrate it. ever wondered why the tops 2 seeds are in different halves of the draw and the seeds are distributed as they are?

    Maybe you haven't been following this thread or the tournament very closely?
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a straight, multi-round knockout tournament like Wimbledon. 

    If you don't know the effect of the change you're suggesting, ie drawing the pools later, that's fair enough. I was dining wondering what the effect of doing it differently would mean. 

    As far as I can see, the eight teams that have gone through have deserved to; and having a different set of teams in the quarters probably wouldn't have made the competition measurably more compelling. 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
    I'd have to see the draw. But it wouldn't have the teams ranked 2 and 3 playing one another in the quarter final and it would have been possible for nos 1, 2 and 5 to all qualify for the quarter finals.

    Maybe you don't understand seeding? But the Wimbledon draw is a good way to demonstrate it. ever wondered why the tops 2 seeds are in different halves of the draw and the seeds are distributed as they are?

    Maybe you haven't been following this thread or the tournament very closely?
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a straight, multi-round knockout tournament like Wimbledon. 

    If you don't know the effect of the change you're suggesting, ie drawing the pools later, that's fair enough. I was dining wondering what the effect of doing it differently would mean. 

    As far as I can see, the eight teams that have gone through have deserved to; and having a different set of teams in the quarters probably wouldn't have made the competition measurably more compelling. 
    Oh dear. You really don't understand do you, lol?! Do you actually read and consider what someone else has commented and the context? Or unable to or just decide what you think/want them to have said?

    When did I say or even show I don't know the effects of the change that IS going to be made going forward? Are you even aware of hw a draw works?

    I'm not aware of anyone, certainly not me suggesting a knockout tournament like Wimbledon!

    Not fully correct about the 8 teams. It was impossible for the top 8 in the world to all get though
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
    I'd have to see the draw. But it wouldn't have the teams ranked 2 and 3 playing one another in the quarter final and it would have been possible for nos 1, 2 and 5 to all qualify for the quarter finals.

    Maybe you don't understand seeding? But the Wimbledon draw is a good way to demonstrate it. ever wondered why the tops 2 seeds are in different halves of the draw and the seeds are distributed as they are?

    Maybe you haven't been following this thread or the tournament very closely?
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a straight, multi-round knockout tournament like Wimbledon. 

    If you don't know the effect of the change you're suggesting, ie drawing the pools later, that's fair enough. I was dining wondering what the effect of doing it differently would mean. 

    As far as I can see, the eight teams that have gone through have deserved to; and having a different set of teams in the quarters probably wouldn't have made the competition measurably more compelling. 
    Oh dear. You really don't understand do you, lol?! Do you actually read and consider what someone else has commented and the context? Or unable to or just decide what you think/want them to have said?

    When did I say or even show I don't know the effects of the change that IS going to be made going forward? Are you even aware of hw a draw works?

    I'm not aware of anyone, certainly not me suggesting a knockout tournament like Wimbledon!

    Not fully correct about the 8 teams. It was impossible for the top 8 in the world to all get though
    Here's what I asked... 

    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different?  

    I'd genuinely be interested to know if you have an answer to this. (You said you'd have to see the draw, which I took to mean you don't know. Apologies if you do know and simply chose not to answer). 

    You seem to be a proponent of a change in the way the draw is made, or at least in its timing. What would the effect of any such change have been on this year's competition? 

    Please answer, because, as I said, I'd be interested in how you envisage it might have played out, not least on the make up of the last eight. 
  • kinveachyaddick
    kinveachyaddick Posts: 3,875
    To be honest, all they needed to do was make a late switch the groups that meet each other in the QF!

    That way the line-up would be:
    Wales v New Zealand
    France v Fiji
    Ireland v England
    South Africa v Argentina

    if the games went to form you’d have the four best sides in the SF 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Its not just about who is in the quarters though. World Rugby have confirmed it was wrong to make the group draws so early  and it is going to be made much later in future - fortunately they disagree with you
    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different? 
    I'd have to see the draw. But it wouldn't have the teams ranked 2 and 3 playing one another in the quarter final and it would have been possible for nos 1, 2 and 5 to all qualify for the quarter finals.

    Maybe you don't understand seeding? But the Wimbledon draw is a good way to demonstrate it. ever wondered why the tops 2 seeds are in different halves of the draw and the seeds are distributed as they are?

    Maybe you haven't been following this thread or the tournament very closely?
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a straight, multi-round knockout tournament like Wimbledon. 

    If you don't know the effect of the change you're suggesting, ie drawing the pools later, that's fair enough. I was dining wondering what the effect of doing it differently would mean. 

    As far as I can see, the eight teams that have gone through have deserved to; and having a different set of teams in the quarters probably wouldn't have made the competition measurably more compelling. 
    Oh dear. You really don't understand do you, lol?! Do you actually read and consider what someone else has commented and the context? Or unable to or just decide what you think/want them to have said?

    When did I say or even show I don't know the effects of the change that IS going to be made going forward? Are you even aware of hw a draw works?

    I'm not aware of anyone, certainly not me suggesting a knockout tournament like Wimbledon!

    Not fully correct about the 8 teams. It was impossible for the top 8 in the world to all get though
    Here's what I asked... 

    In your view, had World Rugby made the pool selections later, what would the quarter final line up look like? And would the winner be different?  

    I'd genuinely be interested to know if you have an answer to this. (You said you'd have to see the draw, which I took to mean you don't know. Apologies if you do know and simply chose not to answer). 

    You seem to be a proponent of a change in the way the draw is made, or at least in its timing. What would the effect of any such change have been on this year's competition? 

    Please answer, because, as I said, I'd be interested in how you envisage it might have played out, not least on the make up of the last eight. 
    And I asked if you understood what a draw was. Without knowing the actual makeup of a different draw taken at a different time, no one can say. 

    Do you even understand that the draw of the current tournament meant the teams ranked 1, 2 and 5 couldn't all qualify for the quarters?

    Not sure why you are discussing something you clearly don't understand - not that is at all unusual?

    Who suggested a knockout tournament like Wimbledon by the way, as I am not aware of anyone
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,337
    kinveachyaddick said:
    To be honest, all they needed to do was make a late switch the groups that meet each other in the QF!

    That way the line-up would be:
    Wales v New Zealand
    France v Fiji
    Ireland v England
    South Africa v Argentina

    if the games went to form you’d have the four best sides in the SF 
    So is the general complaint about who is playing whom in the QFs?  Or more about which teams went through from the pool stage? 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Chizz said:
    kinveachyaddick said:
    To be honest, all they needed to do was make a late switch the groups that meet each other in the QF!

    That way the line-up would be:
    Wales v New Zealand
    France v Fiji
    Ireland v England
    South Africa v Argentina

    if the games went to form you’d have the four best sides in the SF 
    So is the general complaint about who is playing whom in the QFs?  Or more about which teams went through from the pool stage? 
    It is not a 'complaint'. If you actually read and think about what other's post, you won't need to keep asking questions that have been clearly covered already!
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    kinveachyaddick said:
    To be honest, all they needed to do was make a late switch the groups that meet each other in the QF!

    That way the line-up would be:
    Wales v New Zealand
    France v Fiji
    Ireland v England
    South Africa v Argentina

    if the games went to form you’d have the four best sides in the SF 
    If there was a change to the groups to current form, then there would likely be a slight change in the 8 teams qualifying, as well as a fairer seeding
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  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Interesting piece from Ruck here on how the groups would have looked had they been drawn closer to the tournament. Certainly a tougher ask of England.  Beaumont’s argument is very weak and doesn’t stand up at all…confirmed by the fact that they won’t do it again. 
    You'd think that reading this would help Chizz understand better but I'm not hopeful!
  • Nug
    Nug Posts: 4,623
    Isn’t the point Chizz is making is that regardless of when the seeding takes place all we’re doing is ensuring the top 8 seeds are conveniently red carpeted into the last 8. Why should that be? Is it because people are upset it didn’t particularly help Scotland? So what they’d have to beat a team above them to win it anyway? Because they are ranked 5th in the world they have a divine right to be in the QF’s? Absolutely does my head in the arrogance of Tier 1 nations and their fans. It’s the single biggest thing holding rugby back as a sport.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    Nug said:
    Isn’t the point Chizz is making is that regardless of when the seeding takes place all we’re doing is ensuring the top 8 seeds are conveniently red carpeted into the last 8. Why should that be? Is it because people are upset it didn’t particularly help Scotland? So what they’d have to beat a team above them to win it anyway? Because they are ranked 5th in the world they have a divine right to be in the QF’s? Absolutely does my head in the arrogance of Tier 1 nations and their fans. It’s the single biggest thing holding rugby back as a sport.
    No one has a divine right and not what I am saying at all, but it is how seeding works. And seeding is used in many tournaments.

    Assuming there is going to be seeding, just as there is in other world cups including the football one, it needs to be correct. It isn't correct for this world cup as World Rugby have admitted and will correct next time. If this was against England, I'm sure we can imagine the outrage. Over and over, And over!

    It isn't just about Scotland though. As has been mentioned several times and not just by me.

    It's not like people on here whinge about every potential refereeing mistake!

    Do you disagree with seedings in any tournament in any sport then? Why is it just in rugby it does your head in and holds the sport back
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 5,906
    PrincessFiona said:
    Nug said:
    Isn’t the point Chizz is making is that regardless of when the seeding takes place all we’re doing is ensuring the top 8 seeds are conveniently red carpeted into the last 8. Why should that be? Is it because people are upset it didn’t particularly help Scotland? So what they’d have to beat a team above them to win it anyway? Because they are ranked 5th in the world they have a divine right to be in the QF’s? Absolutely does my head in the arrogance of Tier 1 nations and their fans. It’s the single biggest thing holding rugby back as a sport.
    No one has a divine right and not what I am saying at all, but it is how seeding works. And seeding is used in many tournaments.

    Assuming there is going to be seeding, just as there is in other world cups including the football one, it needs to be correct. It isn't correct for this world cup as World Rugby have admitted and will correct next time. If this was against England, I'm sure we can imagine the outrage. Over and over, And over!

    It isn't just about Scotland though. As has been mentioned several times and not just by me.

    It's not like people on here whinge about every potential refereeing mistake!

    Do you disagree with seedings in any tournament in any sport then? Why is it just in rugby it does your head in and holds the sport back
    Im a massive rugby fan and totally agree with you in that nobody has a divine right however I do think it is a great shame that these quarter finals have paired together Ireland/NZ and France/SA which bar some really unexpected result should have been ( even before the start of the competition ) the semi finals.

    I personally would rather see far fewer teams even if it meant that each team in a group played eachother twice. How many top players have been injured playing pretty pointless games during this WC ?
  • TelMc32
    TelMc32 Posts: 9,055
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    TelMc32 said:
    Chizz said:
    Lincsaddick said:
    the 1/4s have two games worthy of a final, Ireland/NZ and France/SA .. the draw must be better handled next time

    Portugal !! .. gritty people, like the football team, this determined outfit has surpassed most people's expectations .. like to see them play Italy a few times .. problem will always be squad depth and league structure .. like many of the 'smaller' nations, the stars tend to go to France, that's where the proper league structure AND the money is 

    Fiji .. off the boil ? .. but we know that any team facing England tends to get up a scalding head of steam
    Why must the draw be "better handled"?  Isn't the purpose of a world championship to find the very best of the best?  If so, then eight of the world's top nine teams competing in the knockout stages is a good thing, isn't it?  And the possibility (or even probability) of Ireland or New Zealand facing France or South African in the final is mouth-watering for rugby fans around the world.  

    If Ireland v New Zealand is "worthy of a final", and France v South Africa is too, then surely the winners of each will also be "worthy of a final".  

    Would the same complaints about the draw be made if the semi finals were Ireland v South Africa and New Zealand v France?  

    I can't see anything in the draw that means the World Cup won't be won by a team that thoroughly deserves to do so. 
    No. Because on current form, not 3 year old seedings, that’s the semi lineup you’d expect. Rugby has already admitted they were wrong, so hopefully the one sided nature of the draw won’t happen again. 

    I doubt whether those 4 mentioned will lose sleep over it. They’ll all know that they have to beat the best of the rest at some stage. You’d usually expect that to come later than the quarters pairing them all up at once, but I just hope it doesn’t make any final too one sided. 
    When you have right of the world's top nine teams competing in the quarter finals, you should really expect not to have a one-sided final. 
    Interesting piece from Ruck here on how the groups would have looked had they been drawn closer to the tournament. Certainly a tougher ask of England.  Beaumont’s argument is very weak and doesn’t stand up at all…confirmed by the fact that they won’t do it again. 
    What, in short, is Beaumont's argument?
    My apologies. Really struggling with this forum recently, especially in trying to tag others, but I obviously didn’t click “paste” for the link. Now attached to my post and here too for ease.

    https://www.ruck.co.uk/france-opener-england-get-tough-group-in-revised-rugby-world-cup-draw/
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,849
    Just about all sports use seedings to spread the teams around at major events. Imagine if the Football World Cup draw wasn't seeded and you ended up with

    Group 1 - France, England, Argentina, Brazil
    Group 2 - Sweden, South Korea, Paraguay, Egypt

    i.e. the top 4 ranked countries at the moment all in one group. It would make for an exciting group stage, but having 2 of the top 4 in the world going out so early feels wrong.

  • TelMc32
    TelMc32 Posts: 9,055
    Chizz said:
    kinveachyaddick said:
    To be honest, all they needed to do was make a late switch the groups that meet each other in the QF!

    That way the line-up would be:
    Wales v New Zealand
    France v Fiji
    Ireland v England
    South Africa v Argentina

    if the games went to form you’d have the four best sides in the SF 
    So is the general complaint about who is playing whom in the QFs?  Or more about which teams went through from the pool stage? 
    It’s not a complaint about who went through, as has been said several times, more that World Rugby created an issue by loading the groups three years ahead of a tournament. Beaumont suggests that’s to ensure the cities involved know which “major” teams they will host and therefore they buy into investing in it. 

    But the game has evolved in the last 3 years. Those same cities would still get their share of the major, current, best teams in the world. It’s simply a ridiculous way to seed a world tournament and feeble excuse for doing so. In reality, it’s all about World Rugby looking after itself ahead of the game. 
  • Lincsaddick
    Lincsaddick Posts: 32,349
    all this convoluted chat about the intricacies of the seeding and the draw, and so little about the actual GAMES .. worrying lol  B)
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    AndyG said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    Nug said:
    Isn’t the point Chizz is making is that regardless of when the seeding takes place all we’re doing is ensuring the top 8 seeds are conveniently red carpeted into the last 8. Why should that be? Is it because people are upset it didn’t particularly help Scotland? So what they’d have to beat a team above them to win it anyway? Because they are ranked 5th in the world they have a divine right to be in the QF’s? Absolutely does my head in the arrogance of Tier 1 nations and their fans. It’s the single biggest thing holding rugby back as a sport.
    No one has a divine right and not what I am saying at all, but it is how seeding works. And seeding is used in many tournaments.

    Assuming there is going to be seeding, just as there is in other world cups including the football one, it needs to be correct. It isn't correct for this world cup as World Rugby have admitted and will correct next time. If this was against England, I'm sure we can imagine the outrage. Over and over, And over!

    It isn't just about Scotland though. As has been mentioned several times and not just by me.

    It's not like people on here whinge about every potential refereeing mistake!

    Do you disagree with seedings in any tournament in any sport then? Why is it just in rugby it does your head in and holds the sport back
    Im a massive rugby fan and totally agree with you in that nobody has a divine right however I do think it is a great shame that these quarter finals have paired together Ireland/NZ and France/SA which bar some really unexpected result should have been ( even before the start of the competition ) the semi finals.

    I personally would rather see far fewer teams even if it meant that each team in a group played eachother twice. How many top players have been injured playing pretty pointless games during this WC ?
    Yes. As a consequence of the draw being too early. At least it won't happen again
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,452
    killerandflash said:
    Just about all sports use seedings to spread the teams around at major events. Imagine if the Football World Cup draw wasn't seeded and you ended up with

    Group 1 - France, England, Argentina, Brazil
    Group 2 - Sweden, South Korea, Paraguay, Egypt

    i.e. the top 4 ranked countries at the moment all in one group. It would make for an exciting group stage, but having 2 of the top 4 in the world going out so early feels wrong.

    Do you know, I think there'd be a couple of negative comments about that, lol!!!!

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