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Climate Emergency

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  • redman
    redman Posts: 5,297
    ME14addick said:
    letthegoodtimesroll said:
    clive said:

    Small electric cars were said to be the future – but SUVs now rule the road

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c778ekg64mjo
    Pot holes and ‘speed bumps’ mean you need an off-road vehicle with bigger wheels and higher clearance to drive on Britain’s roads these days. Driving a smaller car with small wheels and low clearance makes no sense.
    Heavier vehicles make the problem worse.
    Like electric cars in general you mean?
  • redman
    redman Posts: 5,297
    Garrymanilow said:
    shirty5 said:
    Kemi Badenoch has said it is "impossible" for the UK to meet its net zero target by 2050 - a goal set by a previous Conservative government.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly3pnjyzp4o
    To be fair it is impossible for someone as incapable as her
    Let's not make this thread a political one. However, I have never quite undertood why every country needs to be net zero. Globally yes. But am being stupid expecting countries like Brazil, Norway, Sweden etc with big forests being absorbers while others can be producers. 
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,362
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads.
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,362
    Garrymanilow said:
    shirty5 said:
    Kemi Badenoch has said it is "impossible" for the UK to meet its net zero target by 2050 - a goal set by a previous Conservative government.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly3pnjyzp4o
    To be fair it is impossible for someone as incapable as her
    It's such a shame to see a "leader" deciding against leading.  
  • Dansk_Red
    Dansk_Red Posts: 5,733
    Politicians of all colours very rarely make decisions, it is all about sound bites which makes them sound that they are different. We were all told to buy diesel cars,  they were more expensive to buy and diesel cost more at the pump, so the government took a bigger take in taxes no account was taken in they damage they were doing to air quality, the politician now in charge of renewables was part of that government. Interesting to see what happens in 4 years time, and wether climate change will be top of the agenda.      
  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,238
    edited March 18
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    edited March 18
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


  • cantersaddick
    cantersaddick Posts: 17,068
    redman said:
    ME14addick said:
    Tony Juniper is Chair of Natural England and has written many books on Climate Change and the benefits of nature to the economy. 

    Whilst there is so much emphasis on growing the economy, it would be good for everyone to read some of his books, particularly 'What has Nature ever done for us?:How money really does grow on trees' and 'What Nature has done for Britain'. 

    Both books warn of the impacts of not looking after nature, in terms of money and how much better off the economy would be if we look after the natural world.

    https://tonyjuniper.com/

    A lot of what is being done in the name of renewable energy though is the opposite of what should be done for nature. EG building massive solar farms or wind farms on highly productive arable land. There are alternatives. (also I bet none of these net zero calculations then take into account that this food will then have to be imported and will travel long distances, sometimes by air). There just a stupid clamour and everyone who makes an alternative suggestion or puts forward a problem is considered a climate denyer and nutter. 
    Only if you don't factor in the massive ecological disaster that I'd speculatively drilling for oil and gas where less then one in 1000 drills produces a useable vein. Even one drill does more damage to nature and ecosystems than a whole wind farm. 

    You can't include that measure on one side of the equation but not the other.

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  • ME14addick
    ME14addick Posts: 9,768
    redman said:
    ME14addick said:
    Tony Juniper is Chair of Natural England and has written many books on Climate Change and the benefits of nature to the economy. 

    Whilst there is so much emphasis on growing the economy, it would be good for everyone to read some of his books, particularly 'What has Nature ever done for us?:How money really does grow on trees' and 'What Nature has done for Britain'. 

    Both books warn of the impacts of not looking after nature, in terms of money and how much better off the economy would be if we look after the natural world.

    https://tonyjuniper.com/

    A lot of what is being done in the name of renewable energy though is the opposite of what should be done for nature. EG building massive solar farms or wind farms on highly productive arable land. There are alternatives. (also I bet none of these net zero calculations then take into account that this food will then have to be imported and will travel long distances, sometimes by air). There just a stupid clamour and everyone who makes an alternative suggestion or puts forward a problem is considered a climate denyer and nutter. 
    It is possible to have solar farms and grow crops

    https://www.weforum.org/stories/2022/07/agrivoltaic-farming-solar-energy/#:~:text=1%20Agrivoltaic%20farming%20is%20the%20practice%20of%20growing,world%E2%80%99s%20growing%20population%20while%20also%20providing%20sustainable%20energy.

    Agrivoltaic Farming | Is It Worth It?
  • ME14addick
    ME14addick Posts: 9,768
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
  • carly burn
    carly burn Posts: 19,505
    Not a chance if getting anywhere near that net zero target.
  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,238
    carly burn said:
    Not a chance if getting anywhere near that net zero target.
    And?
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    They definitely will be. Humans are simple creatures.
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,362
    "Anywhere near" is subjective, of course.  However, it's worth noting that we're already 49% of the way there...
  • Chippycafc
    Chippycafc Posts: 14,171
    edited March 18
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    Chippycafc said:
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
    The suicidal empathy will never stop
  • Chippycafc
    Chippycafc Posts: 14,171
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chippycafc said:
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
    The suicidal empathy will never stop
    Indeed and we will be on camels and covering our faces. 
  • ME14addick
    ME14addick Posts: 9,768
    Chippycafc said:
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
    That may not be so far from the truth, climate change will only increase migration, as areas that were able to support life become uninhabitable.

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  • Chippycafc
    Chippycafc Posts: 14,171
    ME14addick said:
    Chippycafc said:
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
    That may not be so far from the truth, climate change will only increase migration, as areas that were able to support life become uninhabitable.
    That's fine I will be 110 then and I will go where they have left. Lot of space then....
  • Friend Or Defoe
    Friend Or Defoe Posts: 18,125
    edited March 18
    A Tesla model 3 can do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. How much personality do you need?
  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,238
    Greenland the place to be. Invest in the property market there. 
  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,238
    edited March 19
    Chippycafc said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chippycafc said:
    ME14addick said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    swordfish said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Chizz said:
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Don't forget that swapping ICE vehicles to EV vehicles is just swapping one unsustainable mode of transport for another. Hydrogen cars are the future - we can artificially make the fuel for them.
    You're choosing to ignore the benefits of being able to drive a vehicle powered by renewables.  Do you genuinely believe that renewable electricity-powered cars are as unsustainable as petrol- or diesel-powered cars?
    I know there are benefits, like being able to charge them up at home from renewable energy sources.

    But hydrogen powered cars are the future. The fuel is sustainable and they drive just like ICE cars so you remove the boredom  factor EVs bring that will never appease petrolheads. 
    Could there be any weaker argument for resisting the move away from fossil fuelled cars than this 🤣 What a crying shame for them. 🙄
    People are passionate about cars aren't they? That's why lots of weird and wonderful performance cars exist.

    If everyone looked at cars like you do, we'd all be driving around in 1.2l VW Golfs.

    I know I wouldn't buy an EV out of choice because they have no personality.


    In 50 years time, when coastal areas are flooded, vast tracts of the earth are uninhabitable and severe weather is an everyday occurrence, the last thing that people will be thinking of is the 'personality' of a vehicle.
    You won't be able to drive anywhere as there will be 110 million people in this country. 
    The suicidal empathy will never stop
    Indeed and we will be on camels and covering our faces. 
    We should be now. Sustainable. Good for the environment. Cheap Insurance. No worry about pot poles, and seldom get the hump.

    Edit - Unless you meant smoking them. 
  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,900
    Dansk_Red said:
    Politicians of all colours very rarely make decisions, it is all about sound bites which makes them sound that they are different. We were all told to buy diesel cars,  they were more expensive to buy and diesel cost more at the pump, so the government took a bigger take in taxes no account was taken in they damage they were doing to air quality, the politician now in charge of renewables was part of that government. Interesting to see what happens in 4 years time, and wether climate change will be top of the agenda.      
    Were we ?  I don’t think so.  We purchased new cars in 2010 and 2012 and both were petrol.  We did our homework and saw the writing on the wall for diesel.  Perhaps others did not !
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,084
    edited March 18
    The UK government definitely told us to buy diesel.
    I didn't want diesel, but bought one in 2007 to be "a good guy".
    Lost money on it when I had to sell it to avoid ULEZ.
    Plus diesel costs were higher than petrol costs for the 13 years I had the car.
    Scammed or utter incompetence?
  • Fortune 82nd Minute
    Fortune 82nd Minute Posts: 8,396
    Hex said:
    Dansk_Red said:
    Politicians of all colours very rarely make decisions, it is all about sound bites which makes them sound that they are different. We were all told to buy diesel cars,  they were more expensive to buy and diesel cost more at the pump, so the government took a bigger take in taxes no account was taken in they damage they were doing to air quality, the politician now in charge of renewables was part of that government. Interesting to see what happens in 4 years time, and wether climate change will be top of the agenda.      
    Were we ?  I don’t think so.  We purchased new cars in 2010 and 2012 and both were petrol.  We did our homework and saw the writing on the wall for diesel.  Perhaps others did not !
    Yes I can assure you we were!

    Between 2000 and 2010 I worked for a body that advised government on motoring. Its membership included all the good and great in motoring.

    Our main committee meetings were attended by VERY senior government officials who made it very clear that Gordon Brown wanted the industry to concentrate on manufacturing diesel cars because of their lower CO2 emissions.

    The industry went away and acted on that advice. The rest is history!
  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,900
    Fortune 82nd Minute said:
    Hex said:
    Dansk_Red said:
    Politicians of all colours very rarely make decisions, it is all about sound bites which makes them sound that they are different. We were all told to buy diesel cars,  they were more expensive to buy and diesel cost more at the pump, so the government took a bigger take in taxes no account was taken in they damage they were doing to air quality, the politician now in charge of renewables was part of that government. Interesting to see what happens in 4 years time, and wether climate change will be top of the agenda.      
    Were we ?  I don’t think so.  We purchased new cars in 2010 and 2012 and both were petrol.  We did our homework and saw the writing on the wall for diesel.  Perhaps others did not !
    Yes I can assure you we were!

    Between 2000 and 2010 I worked for a body that advised government on motoring. Its membership included all the good and great in motoring.

    Our main committee meetings were attended by VERY senior government officials who made it very clear that Gordon Brown wanted the industry to concentrate on manufacturing diesel cars because of their lower CO2 emissions.

    The industry went away and acted on that advice. The rest is history!
    While at a BMW dealership, where diesel is king, I asked what percentage of cars sold were petrol - he replied 50%.  An awful lot of purchasers never heard that message or saw through it, then.
  • cafcnick1992
    cafcnick1992 Posts: 7,461
    Friend Or Defoe said:
    A Tesla model 3 can do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. How much personality do you need?
    They're still dull. It's the imperfections in cars that give them character.

    All electric motors feel the same 
  • Friend Or Defoe
    Friend Or Defoe Posts: 18,125
    cafcnick1992 said:
    Friend Or Defoe said:
    A Tesla model 3 can do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. How much personality do you need?
    They're still dull. It's the imperfections in cars that give them character.

    All electric motors feel the same 
    Take one of the wheels off.

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